Do we really want to start all over again?

[TheCusian]

I can break it down more than that. Shafer has been really really lucky twice since being the SU head coach and if not for that luck this "debate" isn't even happening and the masses would be calling for his head. 1) If the Nova kicker didn't pull an epic choke job, SU has 1 win right now and is 1-4 2) If BC didn't run out of bounds for no reason late in the 4th quarter and give SU the ball back when they could have ran out the clock essentially SU loses that game and wins only 5 games last year and has no Bowl appearance. Those are 2 events Shafer got very very VERY lucky with and he had nothing to do with. He got lucky plain and simple. So just imagine Shafer wasn't lucky and he is 1-4 as we sit today and he is coming off a 5 win season with no bowl game. Would this debate even be happening? NOPE, the vast majority would be calling for his job and to fire him. If you dig deep and look into things a little further, you start to realize and ask, what the heck is Shafer's "landmark win" or even "best win" so far? Is it Minnesota in a bowl...I guess but he was lucky to get there. Are things getting better under him as we move forward? (they clearly aren't) Why should SU stick with him? It's really tough to find reasons to keep him at this point and get positive answers to those questions.

And the Pitt loss last year? That was a coin flip game where we got unlucky. How about the red blowing or TD dead last week vs ND?

We outplayed BC in that game last year.

How about Ben Lewis's wide open drop? Bad play or bad luck?

This "lucky" business is the worst way to judge a team. It's faulty logic.

 

[OrangeDW]

Things are going bad and everybody wants to fire the coach, which means his entire staff, (or close to it). You have to re-establish all of our recruiting contacts. We may have a whole new offense and defense to learn. Players who came here because of the coach who recruited them may transfer. Those recruits we've lined up may de-commit. It would be the fourth new coaching staff in a decade. Future recruits would wonder if the guys recruiting them will still be here when they get here.

Shafer won a bowl game last year. Coach Mac was 6-16-1 in his first 23 games. Isn't it better to stick with these guys and give them a chance to figure things out?

Is it fair to say that Shafer took over a better program than Coach Mac did though?

We were clearly improving and on the rise under Marrone. There's no reason for us to be heading towards the toilet. That's what seems to be happening.

If this year continues to go this way, I'd say year 3 is it to show something. We gave Robinson 4...and that was too many. Everybody knew it was over after year 3.

 

[OrangeDW]

We were competitive with ND.

About as competitive as GRob's 15-7 WVU loss, where we got a ton of turnovers to keep the score respectable, but there was clearly 0 chance we would actually win.

 

[longislandcuse]

Is it fair to say that Shafer took over a better program than Coach Mac did though?

We were clearly improving and on the rise under Marrone. There's no reason for us to be heading towards the toilet. That's what seems to be happening.

If this year continues to go this way, I'd say year 3 is it to show something. We gave Robinson 4...and that was too many. Everybody knew it was over after year 3.

Clearly the ACC is a step up in talent but aside from FSU and Clemson, everyone else Shafer has gone up against is someone Marrone would have beat or made a game of. That's where my worry comes from.

As I step back, I would really like to give the staff a shot with their QB as the ones on the roster are terrible and Hunt is singlehandedly sabotaging the offense but can we risk it?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Definitely need some adjustments, but point well made that it should not be a whole new staff. Special teams and offense need work. A coaching change on the offensive side or change in play calling would indicate the seriousness and commitment of the program to both the fans and the future recruits. I think the frustration is that it is becoming the same ol, same ol shooting ourselves in the foot, and we want to see an effort made for some changes. If the changes are not better than at least the effort will still be appreciated. The frustration stems from seeing the same mistakes being made, and nothing being done to rectify those mistakes.
Also comments such as "we will work our butts off next week" do not generate much confidence. I would have thought we were already working our butts off, and if we were not, then why? It diminishes the seriousness of our previous games.
I'll maybe give a pass on the ISIS comment which was also very inappropriate. Once again it is a statement that makes it sound like we should settle for mediocrity when compared to what goes on in the world. No one should ever settle for mediocrity in anything they do in life. Not a good little lesson for your players or anyone else. As I said in another thread if a coach in the SEC made any comparable statement to this they would have been run out of town overnight by the fans. Serious football schools play to win and for nothing else.

The university has settled for mediocrity not the fans

 

[rrlbees]

Clearly the ACC is a step up in talent but aside from FSU and Clemson, everyone else Shafer has gone up against is someone Marrone would have beat or made a game of. That's where my worry comes from. As I step back, I would really like to give the staff a shot with their QB as the ones on the roster are terrible and Hunt is singlehandedly sabotaging the offense but can we risk it?

I'm not sure the offense would be any better. 2012 may have been the outlier due to the group of seniors. The defense probably would be better because of Shafer.

 

[reedny]

We have had a talent deficit for some time. Good coaching (Marone, e.g.,) can hide that to an extent by finding ways to score, negating the other teams' superior skill players, etc... Unfortunately, we're getting embarrassed in all three phases of the game by every team we play. And it's about to get much worse (we may loose every single remaining game including several blow-outs). Media exposure is worthless if you suck. I like Shaf as a person ... he is humble, hard-working, obviously cares about his players, loves the game, appreciates the opportunity, etc... But the product on the field is ... well .. unwatchable. Not sure how long the program can sustain itself on this trajectory ... seemed like fewer than 30k actually in seats at the L-V game.

 

[llandz]

The university has settled for mediocrity not the fans

This does not say that the fans have settled for mediocrity. If you read it properly it says not the fans or not anyone should have to settle as the coach implied we should.

 

[omg_cuse_rules]

A bowl win in year 1 should have bought Shafer at least more time than grob had. SWC is absolutely right-on. I much am chalking this year as up as a blip. If it gets worse next season with no obvious effort by the staff to right the ship, then those who spoke for his ouster now will look like geniuses.

 

[baggerbob]

The first 2 years of a new coaches tenure, you are stuck with the previous coaches guys, case in point Coach P went 10-2, 10-2, was never that good after. Coach Mac went 4-6-1, and 2-9, and still struggled the first 6 years. Doug's record in the Big East the first 3 years was 6-15, had the 1 good year, the offensive stars graduated, and he left. Nassib, Lemon, Sales, and Pugh all left, and the people left behind weren't as good.

 

[SmilinBob]

My question is...is Shafer learning and growing as an HC? One wish I have is that he were the DC for himself but that isn't possible. I see potential in a lot of ways and I see some negative. I'm fine with him being the HC but he has some tough decisions ahead of him regarding his loyalty to the staff... if SU would pay for a quality staff, being a "players coach" and how that might cause issues regarding discipline. I'm not an insider so I have no clue how the interaction is between him and his players and staff are but this thing needs to be tightened up because due to injuries, depth issues and talent mistakes that have been made can no longer been accepted.

Also...props to GMac for accepting the blame on this offense. I've heard P and Deleon for years blame the kids and execution/right game plan thing and credit to him for realizing this is on him. Now...to grow and figure this stuff out and teach/coach these players to be in the right place and set them up for success. No more 6 yard passes to a guy that is double covered when it is 3rd and 8 due to it one time being 3rd and 3 but an offsides penalty put it back 5 yards. Be cerebral because you have to be or it's good night nurse.

 

[Chip]

Yes, until we can be certain that Shafer's tenure is a complete failure with no potential to improve, something that was clearly demonstrated in the G-Rob tenure. Keep in mind that Shafer already has one less win than G-Rob had in four years, so they are hardly comparable.

People who think that a revolving door coaching staff is the answer to building a program because it increases the likelihood of getting the "right guy" are foolish. So are people who think throwing money at a famous coach to come here to save us. if we make him rich it will be less money for assistants. We've never had a an already famous coach come here, (Ossie Solem was the most prominent but his record wasn't spectacular). Coaches become famous here. Every coach after Schwartzwalder was an assistant on somebody's staff when he was hired, (Coach Mac had coached at UMASS a decade before). Whoever follows Shafer will likely have a similar resume. it would just be another spin of the roulette wheel. I'd rather stick this thing out at least through next season before we decide we have to spin that darn thing again. And things would have to stay dismal until then for me to want to do that.

If we win 2-3 games this year, I'll probably feel like we have started over.

That said, this is all just philosophy at this point. Until we get through those 4 November games against peer programs (and assuming we don't stub our toe against Wake), there's really nothing to talk about right now but the individual frustrations.

If we get swept in November, I think whoever is making the next decision (Syverud, Gross, etc.) needs to think pretty hard.

The double edged sword is that they can't wait too long.

For now, let's just assume we'll win 6 until we know we can't.

 

[Stern]

We were competitive with ND.

Not competitive at all. SU got 5 turnovers and still got beat down. And from halftime on the outcome of the game was never in doubt.

It was 14-3 at the half. 21-3 at the end of 3 quarters. That's not being competitive!!!!! SU getting garbage points at the end of the game to make the score look closer than what it was means nothing. ND took control early and SU never cut into the lead until garbage time. When your opponent jumps out to a big lead and never looks back...that isn't being competitive

 

[Stern]

And the Pitt loss last year? That was a coin flip game where we got unlucky. How about the red blowing or TD dead last week vs ND?

We outplayed BC in that game last year.

How about Ben Lewis's wide open drop? Bad play or bad luck?

This "lucky" business is the worst way to judge a team. It's faulty logic.

Dropping a pass is "execution" not luck. There was no "luck" involved there...SU failed to execute a play
I don't believe we outplayed BC last year. we can agree to disagree on that.
The ref made the right call last week vs ND, and even if somehow SU does score there they still don't win the game...so big picture that means little.

 

[SmilinBob]

We have had a talent deficit for some time. Good coaching (Marone, e.g.,) can hide that to an extent by finding ways to score, negating the other teams' superior skill players, etc... Unfortunately, we're getting embarrassed in all three phases of the game by every team we play. And it's about to get much worse (we may loose every single remaining game including several blow-outs). Media exposure is worthless if you suck. I like Shaf as a person ... he is humble, hard-working, obviously cares about his players, loves the game, appreciates the opportunity, etc... But the product on the field is ... well .. unwatchable. Not sure how long the program can sustain itself on this trajectory ... seemed like fewer than 30k actually in seats at the L-V game.

Marrone had Shafer to coach his defense and unfortunately SS does not have that luxury. And yes, if that was 30K I'd be shocked because it looked more like a Coors Silver Bullet out than an Orange out.

 

[SWC75]

A bowl win in year 1 should have bought Shafer at least more time than grob had. SWC is absolutely right-on. I much am chalking this year as up as a blip. If it gets worse next season with no obvious effort by the staff to right the ship, then those who spoke for his ouster now will look like geniuses.

For the record I think they should have canned G-Rob after 2007, which was the worst Syracuse I've ever seen take the field. it was his third year and there was no sign of improvement. if we flat=line this season and next, i'll think the same thing then. But comparing the 9-9 Shafer to the 10-37 G-Rob is silly.

They say you shouldn't judge a team based on their best games or their worst games. I think it's a bad idea to judge a coaching staff during a slump, especially when you are playing ranked teams almost every week. We need to see how the last month of the season plays out when the schedule will get a bit more workable, (but still not easy) and hopefully we get some people back. Even if we do poorly then, Shafer still needs another year before we press the eject button. I disagree that waiting too long is worse than acting too early. Giving things a chance to work is more important than avoiding another bad season. As I said, you aren't going to get a savior coach who is guaranteed to do better and constant churning of the staff is counter-productive.

As to eras, the challenges seem greater now than ever before which should make us more, not less patient. We are in a "big boy" conference and need to build up our muscles before cutting off our arm in hopes of growing a new and better one.

For those who can't wait to get rid of the coach, i ask, how many times in the past would we have changed coaching staffs if we did it every time you called for it?

 

[Oakland]

Sack him? Weren't we just discussing giving him a contract extension so he wouldn't get poached by another school?

Things are going bad and everybody wants to fire the coach, which means his entire staff, (or close to it). You have to re-establish all of our recruiting contacts. We may have a whole new offense and defense to learn. Players who came here because of the coach who recruited them may transfer. Those recruits we've lined up may de-commit. It would be the fourth new coaching staff in a decade. Future recruits would wonder if the guys recruiting them will still be here when they get here.

Shafer won a bowl game last year. Coach Mac was 6-16-1 in his first 23 games. Isn't it better to stick with these guys and give them a chance to figure things out?

 

[djorange1989]

I keep reading how Marrone would have done this and would have done that. I think he did a great job but he also did a crappy job in 2011 and he also coached in a horrible conference his last 3 years. Especially 2010.

 

[gocraz4dasu]

I don't believe in firing coaches in such a short time. You have to give the guy the time to allow his guys to come in and play and allow him to learn on the job. We don't want to be like the Raiders and get in the habit of firing coaches every other year. You can't build a program that way.

We have to be a little patient even though this year has been ugly. Shafer has time to right the ship. He should be given this year and next and if next year doesn't look better, then you'd have to cut ties. You can't fire a coach 16 games or so into his career. That's ridiculous.

 

[reedny]

Marrone had Shafer to coach his defense and unfortunately SS does not have that luxury. And yes, if that was 30K I'd be shocked because it looked more like a Coors Silver Bullet out than an Orange out.

Yes and it's really disheartening -- especially since we have the same staff and QB as last year and we seem to be going backwards offensively. I'll keep supporting the program b/c ... its the 'Cuse. But I'm concerned that we're not competitive enough to give new recruits, or fans, hope that the program is heading in the right direction.

 

[Chris02M]

Marrone had Shafer to coach his defense and unfortunately SS does not have that luxury. And yes, if that was 30K I'd be shocked because it looked more like a Coors Silver Bullet out than an Orange out.

was only 1 section near empty which is not for sale to general public that's 306 and a few back rows in the upper deck ,lower bowl was definately full

 

[SmilinBob]

was only 1 section near empty which is not for sale to general public that's 306 and a few back rows in the upper deck ,lower bowl was definately full

Lower sections were fine but the upper middle was quite empty.