Doc Gross leading the charge for ACC division realignment?

[Chip]

But to paraphrase a certain poster, who shall go nameless , unless a one-divisional set-up works for the SEC, forget about it.

SEC may like the two divisional format since they have 3-4 power teams in each division, a luxury that isn't true in any other conference. What incentive do they have to give up that advantage?

Cheers,
Neil

They don't have to give anything up though. Just get rid of the annoying rules that govern a conference championship game. You want 2 divisions? Fine. You want 1 league wide division? Fine. You want 10 teams? Fine.

I mean really, what are the rules actually controlling that saves us from unfair chaos?

How come some leagues get to play the conference championship games at a home stadiums and other are neutral site? Why isn't that regulated?

The whole thing is a mess and the rule should be disbanded. Much like the concept of states rights, they don't need to be governed on this one.

 

[Alsacs]

Am I completely reading this comment wrong? Because USC and UCLA are in the same division. So are Stanford/Cal. Or are you saying that, for example, USC will play both Stanford and Cal every year?

UCLA and USC will both play Stanford and California each and every year even though both are in separate divisions. It was a compromise by the other 8 Pac-12 teams when they formed the divisions. In exchange for this USC and UCLA agreed to equal revenue sharing for the other 10 teams. Pat Haden stated USC had to play Stanford/Cal each year for Northern California USC alums, and thus he got USC/UCLA those games annually.

 

[Madbiker]

I still like North (old BE w/ Miami) and South (old ACC minus virginia)

Syracuse
BC
PITT
UofL
UVA
VT
MIAMI

DUKE
UNC
WF
NC ST.
CLEMSON
GT
FSU

UVA has made it clear repeatedly that they do not want to be in a northern division with the old Big East. They have a lot of clout and it's important for the stability of the conference to keep them happy.

 

[Alsacs]

North-South split IS NOT EVEN on the table. UVA/UNC are tight schools and UNC which has the power will not screw UVA over at all. This whole realignment is about throwing Florida State a bone and balancing out travel, and media markets. I have stated elsewhere I think Dr. Gross is wants Miami over Florida State for Syracuse and using all this media market crap to just negotiate his way to trying to get Syracuse with Miami.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

The whole thing is a mess and the rule should be disbanded. Much like the concept of states rights, they don't need to be governed on this one.

Blow the whole mother up.

4 pods of 4 teams each. Use the NFL scheduling model. 4 pod champions.

Conference semi-final games played at the top 2 seeds.

Conference champ game at a neutral site. Eliminate bye weeks and use all 14 weeks of the season.

Think of the t-shirt and hat possibilities.

 

[TDTOrange]

I've gotten up on this soapbox many times before, but the NCAA's decision to enforce a DIVISION THREE rule about needing 12 teams in two, 6-team division to have a conference championship game has been one of the most disruptive and destructive decisions made in D1 sports in decades.

The 2-division rule needs to be dumped yesterday. Kill that and scheduling becomes immensely easier and better for every conference.

ACC schedule could be great if we just lined up 1 to 14 and maybe had 2-3 protected annual games for each team. Figure SU would play BC and Pitt annually, just for the northeast connection, so we'd end up playing the rest of the conference at least once every two years. Plus it'd give the league flexibility to schedule high-profile matchups for TV. Let's say Clemon and UNC were both pre-season top 10 -- well in this lousy division alignment the likelihood is high that they wouldn't play each other in the regular season, but in a 1-14 setup you could make sure that game is on the schedule for a primo TV slot in September/October.

Conference championship game would simply be #1 vs. #2.

Just asking because I see this come up a lot. How do you determine #1 & #2 in conference when these teams will not have played equivalent schedules? A conference level BCS poll? That sounds like a great idea. When qualifying for a conference championship game, I agree with Spurrier and his thoughts that only your division record should count. I'd hate for a team to sneak into championship games because they happened to avoid the top 3 teams due to the schedule makers. There need to be round-robin divisions to have any semblance of competitive balance.

I'm not married to the notion that the divisions need to be static year over year, but it helps in developing rivalries over time. Unfortunately with the way schools are jumping leagues these days, they don't leave time for rivaliries to develop, so now it's do whatever you need to maximize your conference's profile.

 

[Scooch]

Just asking because I see this come up a lot. How do you determine #1 & #2 in conference when these teams will not have played equivalent schedules? A conference level BCS poll? That sounds like a great idea. When qualifying for a conference championship game, I agree with Spurrier and his thoughts that only your division record should count. I'd hate for a team to sneak into championship games because they happened to avoid the top 3 teams due to the schedule makers. There need to be round-robin divisions to have any semblance of competitive balance.

I'm not married to the notion that the divisions need to be static year over year, but it helps in developing rivalries over time. Unfortunately with the way schools are jumping leagues these days, they don't leave time for rivaliries to develop, so now it's do whatever you need to maximize your conference's profile.

Well, it's not exactly "fair" using the current division procedure either. A decidedly weaker 6-2 (4-2 in division) Duke team goes to the conference championship by virtue of playing in the mediocre Coastal while a superior Clemson team sits at home. There will never be perfect balance no matter what method you use.

 

[orange79]

I guess it's just me, but I don't think we will ever see pods implemented anywhere in CFB. Just not enough forward thinkers.

 

[TDTOrange]

Well, it's not exactly "fair" using the current division procedure either. A decidedly weaker 6-2 (4-2 in division) Duke team goes to the conference championship by virtue of playing in the mediocre Coastal while a superior Clemson team sits at home. There will never be perfect balance no matter what method you use.

Agree with that, and why I only think division records should count. Conference record can be a tiebreaker for multiple way ties. I don't care so much about Clemson since they had their shot against FSU and got taken to the woodshed, no need to give them a 2nd shot. I don't think it's fair that Duke gets Wake as a perma-crossover while Miami has to play FSU and those games count the same in the division standings.

 

[Alsacs]

Agree with that, and why I only think division records should count. Conference record can be a tiebreaker for multiple way ties. I don't care so much about Clemson since they had their shot against FSU and got taken to the woodshed, no need to give them a 2nd shot. I don't think it's fair that Duke gets Wake as a perma-crossover while Miami has to play FSU and those games count the same in the division standings.

I agree with this completely cross-over games shouldn't be counted for determining the divisional champion.
Look at the SEC the past few years. This year Georgia played LSU and Auburn this year from the SEC West. Missouri played Texas A&M and Ole Miss. South Carolina played Arkansas and Mississippi State.
Last year Georgia played Auburn and Ole Miss while South Carolina played LSU and Arkansas and Florida played LSU and Texas A&M . Even though South Carolina killed Georgia on the field because South Carolina played at LSU and lost a tight game Georgia finished 1 game better and didn't play anybody good from the SEC West.

I would count the cross-over games in the record book, but for determining a divisional champion I would only count division games since the schedules are so imbalanced for and against some teams.

 

[Btstimpy]

The best pod idea I have seen comes from KingOttoIII who nails it IMO and I wish the ACC would follow this.

Just use pods now.

Atlantic always has FSU
Coastal always has Miami

North pod: BC, Pitt, SU
South pod: Clemson, Ga Tech, NC St
East pod: Duke, UNC, UVA
West pod: Louisville, Va Tech, Wake

Year 1 put N & S with FSU E&W with Miami
Year 2 put N & E S&W with Miami
Year 3 put N & W E&S with Miami
Year 4 put E & W N& S with Miami
Year 5 put S & W N&E with Miami
Year 6 put S & E N&W with Miami

So everyone will play FSU or Miami every year. Over 6 years 3x each. You play pod mates every year and other pod teams once in 3 years, which is better than 1 in 6 currently. Since you have 6 division games that allows 2 cross over games a year. So when UVA and Va Tech are not in the same division they will be cross over games. FSU gets Miami every year plus one cross over game (Clemson, etc). Under this system just about everybody would be happy


This is KingOtto's idea and I love it.

I like this idea. I've always liked PODS better than static 7 team divisions. This would rotate more frequently through the entire league. I'd make one minor change to these PODS though. I'd swap Wake with Pitt. Since Va Tech has been in the ACC, the Wake-VT games have been really ugly. Wake hasn't gotten within 20 points of VT. Neither school looks forward to those games. On the other hand Wake and Boston College have created a good rivalry with many games coming down to late in the fourth quarter. I think Wake had an overtime game in the Carrier Dome recently too. All three are private schools and could build rivalries. It would also keep BC and Syracuse visible in the North Carolina media which is the heart of the conference.
In addition, Pitt and Virginia Tech have a rivalry. All the Hokies looked forward to that game this year because Pitt beat VT 5 times in a row before this year.

 

[JJReddawg]

It will never happen, but a dream scenario would be relegation.

Premier Division:
FSU
Clemson
Duke
Virginia Tech
Miami
Louisville
Georgia Tech

Champions Division:
North Carolina
Syracuse
Boston College
Pitt
Wake Forest
NC State
Virginia

Bottom 3 (or 4) teams from the Premier Division go to the Champions Division and the top 3 (or 4) from the Champions Division go to the Premier Division. Don't do the relegation on a yearly basis, rather do it every two years. After the first year, your cross divisional opponents are based on your finish from the year before. ACC Championship is #1 vs. #2 in the Premier Division. Have a secondary championship game for the Champions Division played either before the ACC Championship on the same field or at the home of the team with the better record.

 

[Alsacs]

I like this idea. I've always liked PODS better than static 7 team divisions. This would rotate more frequently through the entire league. I'd make one minor change to these PODS though. I'd swap Wake with Pitt. Since Va Tech has been in the ACC, the Wake-VT games have been really ugly. Wake hasn't gotten within 20 points of VT. Neither school looks forward to those games. On the other hand Wake and Boston College have created a good rivalry with many games coming down to late in the fourth quarter. I think Wake had an overtime game in the Carrier Dome recently too. All three are private schools and could build rivalries. It would also keep BC and Syracuse visible in the North Carolina media which is the heart of the conference.
In addition, Pitt and Virginia Tech have a rivalry. All the Hokies looked forward to that game this year because Pitt beat VT 5 times in a row before this year.

If that would be better I would do it. Another tweek suggested was South-Clemson, Ga. Tech, Louisville, West-NC State, VPI, Wake Forest, but if pods would work I would support them.

 

[Moontan]

Were you able to view the attachment to my post on UofLgrad07's set-up along with how the schedule would work in italics?

That set-up keeps both the 8 game conference schedule and allows for 4 of the 5 major football programs to play each other annually.

As I mentioned previously, 14 team conferences are a pain. 12- or 16- teams work much better.

King Otto's plan is better than what we have. However, the UofLgrad07 proposal is the best so far.

16-teams and a rule tweak is the inevitable result. Until that day, let's push the envelope with the (5+2)*2 scheme.

 

[Btstimpy]

If that would be better I would do it. Another tweek suggested was South-Clemson, Ga. Tech, Louisville, West-NC State, VPI, Wake Forest, but if pods would work I would support them.

This one here would be the best for travel purposes especially for fans. Louisville is an easy drive to Atlanta down I-75 from Lexington with Clemson close by Atlanta. NCState, VPI, and Wake are all close. Wake and NC State have a rivalry. And of course the three northern schools in a POD. It's just that Wake-VPI matchup is bad. I guess it could improve.

 

[riskylogic]

Agree with that, and why I only think division records should count. Conference record can be a tiebreaker for multiple way ties. I don't care so much about Clemson since they had their shot against FSU and got taken to the woodshed, no need to give them a 2nd shot. I don't think it's fair that Duke gets Wake as a perma-crossover while Miami has to play FSU and those games count the same in the division standings.

Using division record as the primary determinant on the divisional champion would solve a lot of problems. You wouldn't have to worry (so much) about whether the crossovers were fair. The league/ESPN could play around with the cross-divisional games every year to create compelling matchups. Teams without SEC rivals could play a ninth intraleague rivalry game the last game of the season.The ACC might even get Notre Dame in to play just the divisional schedule without any cross-divisional games. With Navy in their pod, they would only have to play one more game than are signed up for now.

Still glad Duke got to steal a division title from VT this year though.

 

[HtownOrange]

I think this will be the overriding argument, and this will be what happens. What else? Who knows? But at the end of the day, I will bet Marsh's UConn memorabilia collection that FSU and Miami will be in different divisions.

Marsh' UConn memorobilia collection, huh? All of it? Do they call you "BIG Money"? (Sarcasm off- laughed when i read it)

 

[Lou_C]

Static divisions have worked in the SEC because they are the SEC. They are in a tight geographic footprint, and they have football schools to spare. They can afford to leave UF-Alabama on the floor for a decade, because UF-UGA, UF-USC, UF-Tenn, UF-LSU has plenty of juice.

The ACC doesn't have that, and would be a generation away from that at best. And even then, with 14 there are some serious issues in the SEC. Look up LSU's complaints, and there are ongoing discussions whether it works with 8 games.

But it's not like divisions only fail in the ACC. It's that they only really WORK in the SEC. It is a unique animal. The Big 10 has already re-racked their divisions, and just wait and see how that plays, with how lopsided they are now. Nobody outside the conferences (not everybody inside the conferences) can name the division lineups for the PAC or ACC, and those championship games haven't drawn well or become big events. And the divisional alignment absolutely played a pivotal role in destroying the Big 12.

Divisions suck, because they force too many teams to play each other every year, and artificially keep others from playing. Only because the SEC has an absurd plethora of riches and history and a tight footprint did it break beautifully for them. People have to realize that's the exception and stop trying to emulate what nobody else can emulate.

As for how you fill the championship game? Who the hell cares? There is no reason to have a regular season that is less than ideal in service of a conference championship game that hasn't meant much for anyone but the SEC. The ACC Championship Game can't get worse than it's historically been, no matter how you fill it. In fact any way to fill it will likely prevent 5+ loss teams from playing in it or getting a BC-Wake Forest matchup. So what if the schedules aren't perfectly equitable or the system isn't perfect, they aren't anywhere now. Duke in the championship game with Clemson at home? Again, ask Spurrier or Les Miles how he feels about how the SEC championship game is filled. Computer formula, standings, media vote, don't really care how you put the two teams in a game that few people watch.

The rules surrounding divisions would be the first thing to go once the major conferences and NCAA reset the landscape of authority. It's exactly the kind of rule that the NCAA has no business having, and is a remnant of an earlier time that everyone is now running against. Letting conferences determine their own champions how they see fit would get unanimous approval on the first vote, even for conferences that want to currently maintain division.

 

[Chris02M]

I like this setup quite a bit and I am against pods :

Atlantic(or South)------------------------Coastal (or North)
Virginia------------------------------------Virginia Tech
North Carolina----------------------------NC State
Duke----------------------------------------Wake Forest
Florida State-------------------------------Miami
Clemson-----------------------------------Louisville
Georgia Tech-----------------------------Pittsburgh
Boston College---------------------------Syracuse

 

[SmilinBob]

If the NCAA has any rule in place regarding conference games it should be that you have to play at least 9 if you have 12 teams and 10 if you have 14 or more. If conferences want to expand then they have to actually play the schools in their conference. This foolish division rule is archaic.

Divisions won't work because too many schools do not want to be lumped with the old Big East. All you are going to do is piss off somebody and we all know what happens to VT when they stamp their little feet and cry about the world being unfair. One division and more games within the division.

 

[CuseOnly]

I've gotten up on this soapbox many times before, but the NCAA's decision to enforce a DIVISION THREE rule about needing 12 teams in two, 6-team division to have a conference championship game has been one of the most disruptive and destructive decisions made in D1 sports in decades.

The 2-division rule needs to be dumped yesterday. Kill that and scheduling becomes immensely easier and better for every conference.

ACC schedule could be great if we just lined up 1 to 14 and maybe had 2-3 protected annual games for each team. Figure SU would play BC and Pitt annually, just for the northeast connection, so we'd end up playing the rest of the conference at least once every two years. Plus it'd give the league flexibility to schedule high-profile matchups for TV. Let's say Clemon and UNC were both pre-season top 10 -- well in this lousy division alignment the likelihood is high that they wouldn't play each other in the regular season, but in a 1-14 setup you could make sure that game is on the schedule for a primo TV slot in September/October.

Conference championship game would simply be #1 vs. #2.

You could accomplish almost the same thing with 7 team divisions, go to a 9 game conference schedule, eliminate the permanent crossover. That way you play every team in the other division once every 2 years except for one. In the third year, start the rotation with that team left out in the first 2.

I would be in favor of not playing FSU and Clempsum every single year. I would rather take one of those 2 and swap out with Miami or VT.

I think the key to this is getting the divisions evened out as far as power is concerned and protecting rivalry games as much as possible. FSU, Clempsum and Louisville in the same division would be brutal if it were to remain in place as is.

 

[TheCusian]

The more I read about this stuff, the more I think too much weight is put on traditional powers. For one they change (Clemson has not always been a beast, Miami hasn't been national power good since they joined the ACC)... Here are the parameters I'd work from:

1. All teams need to play each other as much as possible (home and away).
2. Geographic or traditional rivalries should be protected.
3. Instead of traditional powers being the defining trait - go with the NFL model. Reserve some wiggle room to create made-for-tv games. Base this on a combo of who was good the year before and prognosticators opinions. (I know this would create an unevenness in the schedule and mess up the conference records a touch - but a bad team can use the break and some wins, while the best of the best should want to play better teams in light of the playoff system).
4. Pod system within the divisions is the way to do this under current rules. They provide the most flexible option - again, with the end goal being teams playing each other more AND having the best teams play on primetime as much as possible.

The obvious downside would be the complexity in schedule making - it would leave us all with a lot more to complain about and the press would be negative (i.e. We're confused so we'll just say stupid things about it.)

 

[Alsacs]

I like this setup quite a bit and I am against pods :

Atlantic(or South)------------------------Coastal (or North)
Virginia------------------------------------Virginia Tech
North Carolina----------------------------NC State
Duke----------------------------------------Wake Forest
Florida State-------------------------------Miami
Clemson-----------------------------------Louisville
Georgia Tech-----------------------------Pittsburgh
Boston College---------------------------Syracuse

I suggested this very alignment on the Ga. Tech site and it comes back with negative feedback that NC State, VPI, won't like it.

Personally, I liked your idea better previously without Clemson-FSU playing in the same division. The problem boils down to the fact FSU wants Clemson AND Georgia Tech annually and this is the only alignment that allows that.

 

[All4SU]

Can't have a conference championship game with pods.

The ncaa will budge on this. The truth is, the pods are just a way of breaking up the teams into two groups, built by smaller groups.

 

[Scooch]

You could accomplish almost the same thing with 7 team divisions, go to a 9 game conference schedule, eliminate the permanent crossover. That way you play every team in the other division once every 2 years except for one. In the third year, start the rotation with that team left out in the first 2.

I would be in favor of not playing FSU and Clempsum every single year. I would rather take one of those 2 and swap out with Miami or VT.

I think the key to this is getting the divisions evened out as far as power is concerned and protecting rivalry games as much as possible. FSU, Clempsum and Louisville in the same division would be brutal if it were to remain in place as is.

Agreed. The permanent cross-over, coupled with an 8 game schedule, is the killer to variety.

I don't see the ACC moving to a 9 game schedule until the regular season is expanded to 13 games though. Three of the biggest football players simply do not want it, and in a football-centric revenue landscape their opinion carries outsized weight.

This is why I think it'd be best to rejigger the division and pair as many rivals as possible, so there can be a non-permanent rotation through the other division.

I don't see it happening though.