Does a high powered offense win out?

[longislandcuse]

High powered offense vs High powered defense:

http://deadspin.com/clemsons-offensive-line-turned-daron-payne-into-a-block-1791038475

 

[kcsu]

I have never understood why having a high powered O or strong D equates to have the other side of the ball weak. My two cents is that O or D minded head coaches for some strange reason dont hire great coordinators for the other side.
Dino has Ward who has decent credentials but im sure that there are many available DC's that could provide an upgrade.
With the talent we have coming back on D i would expect a significant improvement next year. If not i wouldn't be surprised to see a change.

 

[SoBristol]

I have never understood why having a high powered O or strong D equates to have the other side of the ball weak. My two cents is that O or D minded head coaches for some strange reason dont hire great coordinators for the other side.
Dino has Ward who has decent credentials but im sure that there are many available DC's that could provide an upgrade.
With the talent we have coming back on D i would expect a significant improvement next year. If not i wouldn't be surprised to see a change.

There has to be significant improvement on D, and there should be. Way too young in the D-line in 2016, and not much talent in the secondary -- has to be better, with everyone back in the D units except Wilson and Winfield. Sprinkle in a few more of Babers' recruits and revamp that secondary and maybe the defense can help keep us in games.

I am amazed that Dino rarely talks defense, other than to say we need Elephants on both sides of the ball.

 

[Doc5120]

It didn't help that Scarbrough broke a bone in his leg in the 3rd quarter. I think he was missed down the stretch. Watson is an NFL QB, and Clemson is loaded with skill guys. I hesitate to say offense or defense necessarily wins championships. In this case though, offense proved to win out. I think the difference was an experienced NFL ready QB on one side and a true frosh on the other who is a little one dimensional at this stage.

 

[RMH44]

it's just one game but that was not a good night for the run and stop the run crowd

HCDB, for one, would vehemently disagree and has stated as much on more than one occasion.

Possessing the ability to run the ball and, conversely, to stop the run has absolutely nothing to do with an offense's designation as "high powered".

Baylor is always used as the gold standard for our offense. BU actually runs (628 x 3371 yds...5.0 yds/rush) the ball more than they pass (480 x 3652 yds) while averaging 34.6 points/game.

Meanwhile SU ran the ball 449 x 1786 yds (3.2yds/rush) and passed the ball 522 x 3855 yds yet only 25.7 points/game. This total includes the outlier against Pitt.

Until we develop the ability to consistently run the ball we'll continue to struggle against good defenses. Moving the sticks is imperative when playing an uptempo offense. Otherwise, you wear down your own defense.

Imo, we need major upgrades along the OL and the RB position. we have to find a way to keep opposing LB's honest. As HCDB says elephants and hippos are King of the jungle.

Another quick thought...having a high powered offense and a very good defense aren't mutually exclusive. There absolutely no reason we can't develop a top 20-40 defense on a consistent basis here. It's been done in the recent past.

 

[721Comstock]

HCDB, for one, would vehemently disagree and has stated as much on more than one occasion.

Possessing the ability to run the ball and, conversely, to stop the run has absolutely nothing to do with an offense's designation as "high powered".

Baylor is always used as the gold standard for our offense. BU actually runs (628 x 3371 yds...5.0 yds/rush) the ball more than they pass (480 x 3652 yds) while averaging 34.6 points/game.

Meanwhile SU ran the ball 449 x 1786 yds (3.2yds/rush) and passed the ball 522 x 3855 yds yet only 25.7 points/game. This total includes the outlier against Pitt.

Until we develop the ability to consistently run the ball we'll continue to struggle against good defenses. Moving the sticks is imperative when playing an uptempo offense. Otherwise, you wear down your own defense.

Imo, we need major upgrades along the OL and the RB position. we have to find a way to keep opposing LB's honest. As HCDB says elephants and hippos are King of the jungle.

Another quick thought...having a high powered offense and a very good defense aren't mutually exclusive. There absolutely no reason we can't develop a top 20-40 defense on a consistent basis here. It's been done in the recent past.

Well - they kinda are.
The high powered O leads to more possessions - for both teams.

Which means the D then needs to defend more plays, and then gives up more yards and points, even if they are "better" on a per-play basis.

It's simple math.

Very hard to have a top-rated D, when every one of their opponents is getting more plays and possessions against them, than most other programs.

We can definitely improve on D quite a bit, but because D rankings are all based on "counting stats", and the #'s against ours are absolutely going to be higher because of how the O works, then it becomes very, very hard to move to the upper end of the rankings.

 

[Millhouse]

HCDB, for one, would vehemently disagree and has stated as much on more than one occasion.

Possessing the ability to run the ball and, conversely, to stop the run has absolutely nothing to do with an offense's designation as "high powered".

Baylor is always used as the gold standard for our offense. BU actually runs (628 x 3371 yds...5.0 yds/rush) the ball more than they pass (480 x 3652 yds) while averaging 34.6 points/game.

Meanwhile SU ran the ball 449 x 1786 yds (3.2yds/rush) and passed the ball 522 x 3855 yds yet only 25.7 points/game. This total includes the outlier against Pitt.

Until we develop the ability to consistently run the ball we'll continue to struggle against good defenses. Moving the sticks is imperative when playing an uptempo offense. Otherwise, you wear down your own defense.

Imo, we need major upgrades along the OL and the RB position. we have to find a way to keep opposing LB's honest. As HCDB says elephants and hippos are King of the jungle.

Another quick thought...having a high powered offense and a very good defense aren't mutually exclusive. There absolutely no reason we can't develop a top 20-40 defense on a consistent basis here. It's been done in the recent past.

i was just saying that clemson couldn't run and alabama ran for a ton

 

[RMH44]

Well - they kinda are.
The high powered O leads to more possessions - for both teams.

Which means the D then needs to defend more plays, and then gives up more yards and points, even if they are "better" on a per-play basis.

It's simple math.

Very hard to have a top-rated D, when every one of their opponents is getting more plays and possessions against them, than most other programs.

We can definitely improve on D quite a bit, but because D rankings are all based on "counting stats", and the #'s against ours are absolutely going to be higher because of how the O works, then it becomes very, very hard to move to the upper end of the rankings.

You're assuming that "high powered" equals big plays and low time of possession. That's not necessarily the case when you can move the sticks with a balanced attack using an up tempo, no huddle scheme.

The worst possible scenario is 3 and outs resulting from 3 incomplete passes that stop the clock each time. This happened waaaaay too often last season and completely wears down the defense.

 

[Millhouse]

Another quick thought...having a high powered offense and a very good defense aren't mutually exclusive. There absolutely no reason we can't develop a top 20-40 defense on a consistent basis here. It's been done in the recent past.

it's very hard to do against good competition. we face tradeoffs in how we spend coaching dollars. if your defense has to practice against a unique offense, they might suffer. teams who don't face monetary tradeoffs and who are immensely talented can run a more vanilla offense for your defense to practice against and still end up near the top in both.

these are the teams that were top 40 in yards per play on offense and defense

Louisville
Washington
LSU
Alabama
Western Kentucky
Miami (Florida)
Clemson
Boise State
San Diego State
Penn State
Appalachian State
Florida State
Auburn

These teams are top 30

Louisville
Washington
LSU
Alabama
Miami (Florida)
San Diego State
Penn State

Here are the teams that were top 20 in both
Louisville
Washington
LSU

It's tough to do it in one year, much less consistently

 

[Millhouse]

You're assuming that "high powered" equals big plays and low time of possession. That's not necessarily the case when you can move the sticks with a balanced attack using an up tempo, no huddle scheme.

The worst possible scenario is 3 and outs resulting from 3 incomplete passes that stop the clock each time. This happened waaaaay too often last season and completely wears down the defense.

you can only go 3 and out so slowly. your defense will get tired if you go three and out running the ball

 

[TheCusian]

There has to be significant improvement on D, and there should be. Way too young in the D-line in 2016, and not much talent in the secondary -- has to be better, with everyone back in the D units except Wilson and Winfield. Sprinkle in a few more of Babers' recruits and revamp that secondary and maybe the defense can help keep us in games.

I am amazed that Dino rarely talks defense, other than to say we need Elephants on both sides of the ball.

He talks D plenty.

 

[Millhouse]

He talks D plenty.

not as much as chip

 

[721Comstock]

You're assuming that "high powered" equals big plays and low time of possession. That's not necessarily the case when you can move the sticks with a balanced attack using an up tempo, no huddle scheme.

The worst possible scenario is 3 and outs resulting from 3 incomplete passes that stop the clock each time. This happened waaaaay too often last season and completely wears down the defense.

No, I'm not assuming anything.

Even IF the O is very efficient, and often scores on long, time-consuming drives - there are going to be lots of times they don't.
Either because they scored quickly - YAY!, or because they went 3-and-out - BOO!

So - the opponents are likely to get more possessions and plays against our D.
Period.

 

[RMH44]

No, I'm not assuming anything.

Even IF the O is very efficient, and often scores on long, time-consuming drives - there are going to be lots of times they don't.
Either because they scored quickly - YAY!, or because they went 3-and-out - BOO!

So - the opponents are likely to get more possessions and plays against our D.
Period.

Completely agree and didn't mean to imply otherwise. It's obvious to anyone with a clue that the opponent will also have more possessions. Still doesn't excuse lousy defense.

 

[RMH44]

you can only go 3 and out so slowly. your defense will get tired if you go three and out running the ball

Agreed, I was describing the worst case scenario.

My point is, if you have the ability to run the ball successfully your offense should be much more efficient which, in turn, moves the sticks.

 

[Millhouse]

Agreed, I was describing the worst case scenario.

My point is, if you have the ability to run the ball successfully your offense should be much more efficient which, in turn, moves the sticks.

i think this offense is uniquely hopeless at running and blocking this year - total anomaly

if you spread the field and can throw competently, you will be able to run successfully - it's really hard not to. we managed to screw it up this year - combo of horrible run blocking and running - just basic stuff where you throw up your hands. hopefully moe neal gets bigger the right way and all the lumps from this year pay off. big difference in november for him.

strickland, i'm still not very hopeful and i'm convinced he's a WR

 

[RMH44]

i think this offense is uniquely hopeless at running and blocking this year - total anomaly

if you spread the field and can throw competently, you will be able to run successfully - it's really hard not to. we managed to screw it up this year - combo of horrible run blocking and running - just basic stuff where you throw up your hands. hopefully moe neal gets bigger the right way and all the lumps from this year pay off. big difference in november for him.

strickland, i'm still not very hopeful and i'm convinced he's a WR

Completely agree with everything except Strickland to WR. IMO, he doesn't have the speed or quickness to be effective @ WR. In a perfect world he'd make a nice 2-3 deep rb used situationally.

 

[TheCusian]

Completely agree and didn't mean to imply otherwise. It's obvious to anyone with a clue that the opponent will also have more possessions. Still doesn't excuse lousy defense.

But any metric our defense was lousy this year - but we should rely more on tempo-free stats to evaluate both O and D... especially when comparing the past to this era.

 

[TheCusian]

Completely agree with everything except Strickland to WR. IMO, he doesn't have the speed or quickness to be effective @ WR. In a perfect world he'd make a nice 2-3 deep rb used situationally.

He's plenty quick. I think they went with him at RB because he was be best fit on the roster, but not because it was the best position for him.

 

[Ish88888]

i was just saying that clemson couldn't run and alabama ran for a ton

Thats all bama can do. They have a LB playing QB and he cant throw too well. Also, scarbrough is a stud, beast!

 

[Ish88888]

He's plenty quick. I think they went with him at RB because he was be best fit on the roster, but not because it was the best position for him.

Rbs are only as good as their blocking in 9/10 cases minus Elliott, Scarbrough, and elite rbs of first round caliber. We have run the ball in the past with 2-3 star guys. Wait til our young oline steps up, we will be just fine without elite rbs. Strick is a good back caught in an offensive change and developing line.

 

[TheCusian]

Rbs are only as good as their blocking in 9/10 cases minus Elliott, Scarbrough, and elite rbs of first round caliber. We have run the ball in the past with 2-3 star guys. Wait til our young oline steps up, we will be just fine without elite rbs. Strick is a good back caught in an offensive change and developing line.

I'd bet we see one of the FL recruits at RB, starting - game 1.

 

[Ish88888]

I'd bet we see one of the FL recruits at RB, starting - game 1.

Yup, also, jo el shaw might have made an impact in this offense. Good combo of size and speed. Any word on him? Trying to qualify?

 

[Sudano]

Allow me to repeat myself: the gap between Watson and Hurts is bigger than the gap between the two defenses.

Give me the better QB and a top 10 defense, all day every day.

And win by 4 with a TD with 1 second on the clock.

 

[SoBristol]

He talks D plenty.

Define "plenty" and give a few highlights about what he says about D. I have heard him speak -- 40 minutes on offense, maybe 10 minutes (maybe) about D. He has a fascination with a fast-paced passing attack. Very little about blocking or a running attack. Very few comments about the D. Good thing Brian Ward went out and recruited juco and grad transfer help for the D.