Duke has two Final Fours in the last 15 years

[longislandcuse]

They have a lot of Number 1 tournament seeds. That's impressive in and of itself. The tournament is just a roulette wheel.

It is, but it's not as much of a game of chance being a perennial 1/2 seed. You have 2 games that you should win 95% of the time. Then you have to get through the hurdle of the second weekend where you're playing teams that, most likely, have talent/coaching where match-ups/luck can come into play.

 

[RandygoCuse]

I also saw something posted that only Cuse in 2003, UK in 2012, and Duke in 2015 are the only teams with one-and-done players to lead teams to a championship. I haven't done the research to see if this is true (Adam Zagoria neglected to include us).

 

[jgeorge322]

considering Duke is basically first in line for every recruit out there...2 final fours in the last 15 years is not that impressive and indeed under-performing...

i think some of your numbers are off...you are talking about Final Fours right???

MSU has 5 - 2005 - 2009 - 2010 - 2015 - 2019

villanova has 3 in the last 10 years - 2018, 2016, 2009 - with 2 titles

kansas has - 4

syracuse has 3 including 2003

uconn has 3

florida has 3

kentucky has 4

duke has 3

louisville has 3

Duke sucks - they get every recruit and are ranked top 5 every year pre-season...FOR THE TALENT THAT THEY GET - they under-perform.

I agree that it is harder than it might seem to make a final four - it is even hard for the "blue bloods" - but considering the rep they have and the prestige and spotlight and the amount of top recruits Duke and Kentucky get - their results are pretty weak...

Butler went back to back years and Villanova won 2 out of 3...

i get what you are saying about the window being small and that it rarely re-opens regularly but overall...squads like duke and kentucky should be doing better than they do relative to the field...

Your lines about mich state butler and nova, senior laden teams, cut against your point that duke underperforms. Duke gets top recruits but only for one year. All that tells you is that getting one and dones might not be the best way to win championships. This is further evidenced by kentucky. cal is the king of one and dones and he only has one championship. Moreover, there is a period in the timeframe you select that duke didnt have as many one year players. Since duke became the premier one and done program, theyve won one championship. Not underperforming.

Hate duke all you want—i do too. But to say theyve underperformed, i think is a weak argument. Its based on a conclusion they should win more because they get one and done players, but one could easily say they should win less because they have less experience and come to the opposite conclusion.

 

[longislandcuse]

I'm not a fan of the "Coach X underperformed given their talent level" argument, as if recruiting isn't part of coaching.

 

[Forloveoforange]

Looking at statistics as if the playing field is level... Why even bother? Apples and oranges.

 

[sufandu]

Coach K is so overrated these days. Does he ever get his teams playing better than expected or even meet expectations?

Coaching one and dones is different. I'm sure he pulls back schematically compared to what he did years ago when he had veterans to build with over the course of a few seasons supplemented by a freshman here or there. In thisnnew era he's been betting on talent. It's more of a decision than a lack coaching ability.

 

[upperdeck]

the 1-2s should get to the sweet 16 after that it comes down to matchups.. sometimes the big schools play a bad game.. sometimes the lesser schools shoot lights out..

duke had no reason to get past game 2 let alone 3 and then lost in game 4..

 

[sufandu]

Duke was missing a Grayson Allen type player on their team this year.
If they had a Allen or Tyus Battle type SG they would have been more complete.
Reddish and Barrett were both SFs and one of them was out of positionZ
It was Reddish to be honest.
They had no SG on their roster and were forced to play O’Connell and Goldwire there just to have a body.

Duke has wasted all that talent.

Wasn't one of the freshman guards that left after last season supposed to be a good shooter? If that's true, and K pushed him out as some suggest, that move killed them.

 

[Forloveoforange]

the 1-2s should get to the sweet 16 after that it comes down to matchups.. sometimes the big schools play a bad game.. sometimes the lesser schools shoot lights out..

duke had no reason to get past game 2 let alone 3 and then lost in game 4..

Is Duke the first team to lose 3 games in a row in the tournament?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Playing Jack White was a terrible coaching move.

 

[longislandcuse]

Playing Jack White was a terrible coaching move.

I've honestly never seen him make a basket...

 

[jgeorge322]

Playing Jack White was a terrible coaching move.

Great guitarist though

 

[rrlbees]

This has been posted a few times before. Doesn’t include this season.

 

[shantydaze]

I felt that the 2015 Duke win against Wisconsin was due to the referees. But if you want to call that a Duke win, feel free, I guess.

As a Wisconsin alum, I fully agree with your opinion!

 

[Orangemen]

This has been posted a few times before. Doesn’t include this season.

View attachment 158401

Would be very interested to see a breakdown of post one and done era.

I would bet that JBs lead over k would be even more impressive.

 

[Alsacs]

Would be very interested to see a breakdown of post one and done era.

I would bet that JBs lead over k would be even more impressive.

Duke has been more consistently dominant.
Since 1985 they have only missed the tournament 1 time in 1995 and besides that they only below a 4 seed 2 times in 1996 they were an 8 seed and in 2007 they were a 6 seed.
Every other year they have been a top 4 seed.

I do think JB is a better coach with talent though. JB is the better defense coach and would get them to play better defense. JB doesn’t get those players to come to Syracuse like K does to Duke.
K is a great coach himself but he hasn’t constructed great rosters to support his superstars.

I wish we could have one top 10 player a year and not multiple like Duke.

 

[shermstheman]

Reading all this negativity about Duke and K makes for a very enjoyable lunch.

 

[jordville]

Enjoyed this read! Hope you do too...LGO!

 

[721Comstock]

I also saw something posted that only Cuse in 2003, UK in 2012, and Duke in 2015 are the only teams with one-and-done players to lead teams to a championship. I haven't done the research to see if this is true (Adam Zagoria neglected to include us).

Which is pretty amazing - since we only had ONE 1&D, (and only 2 total future NBA players)
meanwhile, UK and Dook each had 3+ 1&D's

... along with several other guys who also ended up getting drafted too.

UK had 4 First Round draft picks that year, plus 2 more Second Rounders.

 

[44cuse]

considering Duke is basically first in line for every recruit out there...2 final fours in the last 15 years is not that impressive and indeed under-performing...

i think some of your numbers are off...you are talking about Final Fours right???

MSU has 5 - 2005 - 2009 - 2010 - 2015 - 2019

villanova has 3 in the last 10 years - 2018, 2016, 2009 - with 2 titles

kansas has - 4

syracuse has 3 including 2003

uconn has 3

florida has 3

kentucky has 4

duke has 3

louisville has 3

Duke sucks - they get every recruit and are ranked top 5 every year pre-season...FOR THE TALENT THAT THEY GET - they under-perform.

I agree that it is harder than it might seem to make a final four - it is even hard for the "blue bloods" - but considering the rep they have and the prestige and spotlight and the amount of top recruits Duke and Kentucky get - their results are pretty weak...

Butler went back to back years and Villanova won 2 out of 3...

i get what you are saying about the window being small and that it rarely re-opens regularly but overall...squads like duke and kentucky should be doing better than they do relative to the field...

Yet again...same thread form last week. A single elimination tournament isn't a determinant of whether or not a coach sucks. The regular season matters.

44cuse

 

[JoeySimz]

So excuses for JB..not got, excuses for Coach K good
Recruting is part of coaching at Syracuse, not at Duke
The regular season matters when K sucks in the tourney, the tourney matters when JB exits early

 

[sufandu]

Duke has been more consistently dominant.
Since 1985 they have only missed the tournament 1 time in 1995 and besides that they only below a 4 seed 2 times in 1996 they were an 8 seed and in 2007 they were a 6 seed.
Every other year they have been a top 4 seed.

I do think JB is a better coach with talent though. JB is the better defense coach and would get them to play better defense. JB doesn’t get those players to come to Syracuse like K does to Duke.
K is a great coach himself but he hasn’t constructed great rosters to support his superstars.

I wish we could have one top 10 player a year and not multiple like Duke.

If we want to compare JB and K the most accurate time period would be the mid to late 80's. K wasn't quite K yet and JB was recruiting at an elite level before the first sanctions.

Starting in the '80-'81 season, K's first at Duke and our second in the Big East Conference, neither team made the NCAA tournament that year. Ending in '89-'90, the last before K won his first NC, and was considered by some a coach that couldn't win the big one, and the year before we lost to Richmond, signalling the end of our first elite era.

JB got back to the tourney first in '83 with K going in '84.
JB made the final game 1 time, the elite eight 1 time, and the sweet sixteen 2 times.
K made the final game 2 times, the final four 2 times, and the sweet sixteen 1 time

Seedings were pretty similar.
JB - 2 seed 4 times, 3 seed 2 times, 6 seed 1 time, and 7 seed 1 time. Avg - 3.38
K - 1 seed one time, 2 seed 2 times, 3 seed 3 times, and 5 seed 1 time. Avg - 2.71

JB had two 30 win seasons and seven 20 win seasons.
K had one 30 win season and six 20 win seasons.

During that era when talent levels were similar, it looks like K had significantly more success than JB in the tourney with regular season success tilting slightly in JB's favor.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Fans slammed JB for losing to Dayton in 2014, Marquette in 2011, and Butler in 2010, but now we are making excuses for K?

Weird.

 

[richard levy]

6 sweet sixteen
3 elite eight
1 final four
2 titles
Since 2003

 

[Alsacs]

Fans slammed JB for losing to Dayton in 2014, Marquette in 2011, and Butler in 2010, but now we are making excuses for K?

Weird.

K has share of flameouts that have been ignored.
He lost to 14 seed Mercer in the first round in 2014.
He lost to 15 seed Lehigh in 2012.
He lost to 7 seed West Virginia in 2008.
He lost to 7 seed South Carolina in 2017.

He just has 5 rings so it excuses the flameouts.

Izzo just said today needs a 2 NC to validate his greatness.