espn hardwood classics

[OttoMets]

The 2003 team will have three retired jerseys once Melo, Warrick and GMac are all retired.

I'm just nowhere close to being convinced that the 1989 team (with it's poor outside shooting, no bench, poor free throwing, chemistry issues as you said, and 8 losses) was a better cohesive unit than 2003, 2010 or 2012.

I feel like you're being too dismissive of the 89 Michigan team, also. They had the best player in college basketball in Glen Rice, and a lot of other talented guys like Loy Vaught, Rumeal Robinson and Terry Mills.

Derrick would've been real excited to play those guys. He had an on-off switch that contributed to some of the uneven play over the years, but he would have gone after Michigan like crazy in the Final Four.

Also, hadn't we swept them in a home-and-home the previous two seasons?

 

[RF2044]

Derrick would've been real excited to play those guys. He had an on-off switch that contributed to some of the uneven play over the years, but he would have gone after Michigan like crazy in the Final Four.

Also, hadn't we swept them in a home-and-home the previous two seasons?

No, we lost there in 1987 [Gary Grant outplaying Sherman Douglas], but then we came back the following year and steamrolled them in the Dome.

 

[Edfromsodus]

Siekaly is the second best center in the dome era behind Fab Melo. He had great post moves, exceptional rebounder and shot blocker.

He had a couple NBA games where he grabbed 35+ rebounds.

 

[Jake]

This thread makes me sad on a number of levels.

Stevie Thompson - he couldnt shoot outside of 8 feet. He was relatively weak ball handler. But he shot 60% in an era where every team had a big man. His ability to finish around bigger guys was amazing. Hard to describe for people who never saw him play.

The one thing that really skews the eras are the early entries. Almost NO ONE went early in the 80s. The teams in the 80's were full of what are now 3rd and 4th year NBA players who developed their man strength in college.

The teams in the 80s were just physically stronger at every position on the floor that college teams today.

That 89 team would have decimated the 2010 and 2012 teams inside. It would all come down to if those more recent teams could keep pace by hitting enough 3's and I think those teams in particular played better team defense than the 80s teams. But I think the teams from the 80s would just own the paint and have a dunk-a-thon.

It's not say those player of the 80s were ultimately better players at their career peaks, but while in college they were sooooooo much better.

The hike play. I could watch it forever.

 

[Jake]

College basketball was so different back then. Our 89 team ranks up towards our all time best. They had amazing talent but so did many other big east teams. Those were the days where guys almost always played 4 years.

We struggled to shoot the rock at times but that team was amazing in transition, they were great at rebounding and they could defend. And when they had th chip on their shoulder you better watch out. I still have nightmares about the elite 8 game vs Illinois.

No way in hell does the 2010 or 2012 team beat them.

As good as that 2010 team was, I have no idea how it would handle Coleman and Owens. To put it into perspective...It was almost like having two Anthony Davis' on the floor. That may be a little bit of an exaggeration...but not much.

 

[realorange]

This thread makes me sad on a number of levels.

Stevie Thompson - he couldnt shoot outside of 8 feet. He was relatively weak ball handler. But he shot 60% in an era where every team had a big man. His ability to finish around bigger guys was amazing. Hard to describe for people who never saw him play.

The one thing that really skews the eras are the early entries. Almost NO ONE went early in the 80s. The teams in the 80's were full of what are now 3rd and 4th year NBA players who developed their man strength in college.

The teams in the 80s were just physically stronger at every position on the floor that college teams today.

That 89 team would have decimated the 2010 and 2012 teams inside. It would all come down to if those more recent teams could keep pace by hitting enough 3's and I think those teams in particular played better team defense than the 80s teams. But I think the teams from the 80s would just own the paint and have a dunk-a-thon.

It's not say those player of the 80s were ultimately better players at their career peaks, but while in college they were sooooooo much better.

The hike play. I could watch it forever.

Stevie is probably my all time favorite player. His movements were so fluid and above the rim play for a shorter player. I believe he is the best finisher that Syracuse has ever had.

 

[SWC75]

Siekaly is the second best center in the dome era behind Fab Melo. He had great post moves, exceptional rebounder and shot blocker.

He had a couple NBA games where he grabbed 35+ rebounds.

Fab played a key role on our winningest team but he only averaged 7.8 points and 5.8 rebounds for that team with 2.9 blocks. Seikaly as a senior averaged 16.3 points, 9.8 rebounds and 2.4 blocks. Statistics aren't everything but that's quite a gap. Of course, he was a senior and Fab was only a sophomore but that's the point. Rony as a sophomore: 10.1p 7.8r 3.0b.

 

[MSOrange]

This thread makes me sad on a number of levels.

Stevie Thompson - he couldnt shoot outside of 8 feet. He was relatively weak ball handler. But he shot 60% in an era where every team had a big man. His ability to finish around bigger guys was amazing. Hard to describe for people who never saw him play.

The one thing that really skews the eras are the early entries. Almost NO ONE went early in the 80s. The teams in the 80's were full of what are now 3rd and 4th year NBA players who developed their man strength in college.

The teams in the 80s were just physically stronger at every position on the floor that college teams today.

That 89 team would have decimated the 2010 and 2012 teams inside. It would all come down to if those more recent teams could keep pace by hitting enough 3's and I think those teams in particular played better team defense than the 80s teams. But I think the teams from the 80s would just own the paint and have a dunk-a-thon.

It's not say those player of the 80s were ultimately better players at their career peaks, but while in college they were sooooooo much better.

The hike play. I could watch it forever.

Jake said it must better than I did Sgt Cuse. I just think those 80s teams were a lot stronger than you give them credit for.

 

[Gotothehole]

As good as that 2010 team was, I have no idea how it would handle Coleman and Owens. To put it into perspective...It was almost like having two Anthony Davis' on the floor. That may be a little bit of an exaggeration...but not much.

Coleman and Owens would eat the 2010 team lunch and will not be close

 

[realorange]

Coleman and Owens would eat the 2010 team lunch and will not be close

Coleman to Stevie 3/4 court pass and BOOM. 2010 team would stand in awe.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Jake said it must better than I did Sgt Cuse. I just think those 80s teams were a lot stronger than you give them credit for.

I think the '12 was a lot stronger than the old timers want to admit. I hope the current generation is able to articulate how good that team was. Defense is so much harder to capture via statistics, although 34-3 says a lot.

Already upstream SwC is trying to make the ridiculous case that Rony's soph year is in some way comparable to the clinic Fab put on. C'mon. Rony in his soph year was, at best, an average BE center. Fab was the BE DPOY and really probably would have been Nationally had it not been for the suspension.

The zone D back in the day was employed mainly for three main reasons, the players were poor at defense, trying to keep down fouls, and to rest the stars. The '12 defense was legendary, teams prepared by using brooms.

This is kind of like comparing last years team to this years. The offensive statistics of last year dwarf this years, but I'd take this years team.

 

[OttoMets]

I think the '12 was a lot stronger than the old timers want to admit. I hope the current generation is able to articulate how good that team was. Defense is so much harder to capture via statistics, although 34-3 says a lot.

Already upstream SwC is trying to make the ridiculous case that Rony's soph year is in some way comparable to the clinic Fab put on. C'mon. Rony in his soph year was, at best, an average BE center. Fab was the BE DPOY and really probably would have been Nationally had it not been for the suspension.

The zone D back in the day was employed mainly for three main reasons, the players were poor at defense, trying to keep down fouls, and to rest the stars. The '12 defense was legendary, teams prepared by using brooms.

This is kind of like comparing last years team to this years. The offensive statistics of last year dwarf this years, but I'd take this years team.

Big men were so much more skilled 20 and 30 years ago; guys like Seikaly would be off to the NBA after that second-year production.

Fab -- RIP -- became an excellent defender by his second year. But that's not the whole game. And he was still as raw as anyone on offense; he was finding himself before the suspension, but he could still be an adventure around the rim and didn't have a post-up game to speak of. His offense was dunks from pick-and-rolls with Scoop and the occasional 15-footer. That is, offensive skill that every starting center in the Big East possessed in 1989. Stuff that Conrad McRae could do while everyone complained that he wasn't as good as LeRon Ellis (who only could draw complaints that he wasn't as good as Seikaly).

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Big men were so much more skilled 20 and 30 years ago; guys like Seikaly would be off to the NBA after that second-year production.

Fab -- RIP -- became an excellent defender by his second year. But that's not the whole game. And he was still as raw as anyone on offense; he was finding himself before the suspension, but he could still be an adventure around the rim and didn't have a post-up game to speak of. His offense was dunks from pick-and-rolls with Scoop and the occasional 15-footer. That is, offensive skill that every starting center in the Big East possessed in 1989. Stuff that Conrad McRae could do while everyone complained that he wasn't as good as LeRon Ellis (who only could draw complaints that he wasn't as good as Seikaly).

Seikaly would not have been off to the NBA after his soph year. I repeat, no way in hell, would Seikaly be off to the NBA after his soph year. He was at best an average center. Our center tandem this year is offering more than Seikaly did as a soph and they are going no where, in an age where people leave a lot earlier.

Seikaly averaged 10 ppg on a team putting up on avg close to 84 a game while Fab had 8 ppg on a team that averaged 71. Fab was several inches taller. And once again, the defenses of the two are not comparable.

This is what happens with the passage of time, people just state Seikaly and think of the Senior Seikaly. And even the Senior Seikaly was never as good as Fab on defense.

 

[OttoMets]

Seikaly would not have been off to the NBA after his soph year. I repeat, no way in hell, would Seikaly be off to the NBA after his soph year. He was at best an average center. Our center tandem this year is offering more than Seikaly did as a soph and they are going no where, in an age where people leave a lot earlier.

Seikaly averaged 10 ppg on a team putting up on avg close to 84 a game while Fab had 8 ppg on a team that averaged 71. Fab was several inches taller. And once again, the defenses of the two are not comparable.

This is what happens with the passage of time, people just state Seikaly and think of the Senior Seikaly. And even the Senior Seikaly was never as good as Fab on defense.

Athletic 6'11" centers who put up 11 and 8 as sophomores leave for the NBA all the time. (We could go back and forth on this for awhile, I fear.)

 

[Gotothehole]

Seikaly would not have been off to the NBA after his soph year. I repeat, no way in hell, would Seikaly be off to the NBA after his soph year. He was at best an average center. Our center tandem this year is offering more than Seikaly did as a soph and they are going no where, in an age where people leave a lot earlier.

Seikaly averaged 10 ppg on a team putting up on avg close to 84 a game while Fab had 8 ppg on a team that averaged 71. Fab was several inches taller. And once again, the defenses of the two are not comparable.

This is what happens with the passage of time, people just state Seikaly and think of the Senior Seikaly. And even the Senior Seikaly was never as good as Fab on defense.

Go back and watch SU vs GT 1986

 

[SWC75]

I think the '12 was a lot stronger than the old timers want to admit. I hope the current generation is able to articulate how good that team was. Defense is so much harder to capture via statistics, although 34-3 says a lot.

Already upstream SwC is trying to make the ridiculous case that Rony's soph year is in some way comparable to the clinic Fab put on. C'mon. Rony in his soph year was, at best, an average BE center. Fab was the BE DPOY and really probably would have been Nationally had it not been for the suspension.

The zone D back in the day was employed mainly for three main reasons, the players were poor at defense, trying to keep down fouls, and to rest the stars. The '12 defense was legendary, teams prepared by using brooms.

This is kind of like comparing last years team to this years. The offensive statistics of last year dwarf this years, but I'd take this years team.

No: I just quoted the numbers. I agree Fab as a soph had a greater impact on games than Seikaly, even if he wasn't as statistically productive. But he was clearly a better all-around player than Fab when he was a senior, which is the "late 80's" period we are talking about. My point was that Fab never had great numbers and you have to work around them to praise him. And we never got to see him as a senior, as we'd usually don't these days with the best players.

By the way, Chukwu is currently averaging 5.7p 6.1r 2.6b.

 

[pfister1]

Seikaly would not have been off to the NBA after his soph year. I repeat, no way in hell, would Seikaly be off to the NBA after his soph year. He was at best an average center. Our center tandem this year is offering more than Seikaly did as a soph and they are going no where, in an age where people leave a lot earlier.

Seikaly averaged 10 ppg on a team putting up on avg close to 84 a game while Fab had 8 ppg on a team that averaged 71. Fab was several inches taller. And once again, the defenses of the two are not comparable.

This is what happens with the passage of time, people just state Seikaly and think of the Senior Seikaly. And even the Senior Seikaly was never as good as Fab on defense.

I'm lost. You are making the argument that a guy who had a 10 year NBA career and averaged nearly a double double for his career was not as good an NBA prospect as a guy who managed a 6 game NBA career?

What am I missing, if Fab had stayed in school he would have panned out? Something tells me that if you could drop Seikaly into this era of college basketball he would have fared just fine.

 

[SWC75]

Seikaly would not have been off to the NBA after his soph year. I repeat, no way in hell, would Seikaly be off to the NBA after his soph year. He was at best an average center. Our center tandem this year is offering more than Seikaly did as a soph and they are going no where, in an age where people leave a lot earlier.

Seikaly averaged 10 ppg on a team putting up on avg close to 84 a game while Fab had 8 ppg on a team that averaged 71. Fab was several inches taller. And once again, the defenses of the two are not comparable.

This is what happens with the passage of time, people just state Seikaly and think of the Senior Seikaly. And even the Senior Seikaly was never as good as Fab on defense.

84/71 X 8 = 9.5

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I'm lost. You are making the argument that a guy who had a 10 year NBA career and averaged nearly a double double for his career was not as good an NBA prospect as a guy who managed a 6 game NBA career?

What am I missing, if Fab had stayed in school he would have panned out? Something tells me that if you could drop Seikaly into this era of college basketball he would have fared just fine.

Yes, you are missing the point. The point was the danger in spouting career statistics as the basis of the greatness of an individual season. Seikaly happens to be a great example of this back in the 80s. The look back and spouting of greats that played together, ie Pearl and Seikaly, doesn't capture their points in their careers.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Athletic 6'11" centers who put up 11 and 8 as sophomores leave for the NBA all the time. (We could go back and forth on this for awhile, I fear.)

This is a a great example of building up a team/person in retrospect.

Seikaly was a 6'10" spaz who averaged a pedestrian 10 a game as a soph. Seikaly is known for his huge improvement. And that improvement didn't make him above average until the NCAAT in his junior year - I remember him being called out by a Frosh from FL - seemed like a fire started and Schintz (?) woke a bear.

Yes, I guess we can go back and forth on this. But I think this is an excellent example of looking back through an Orange haze on the good old days.

 

[Jake]

Seikaly would not have been off to the NBA after his soph year. I repeat, no way in hell, would Seikaly be off to the NBA after his soph year. He was at best an average center. Our center tandem this year is offering more than Seikaly did as a soph and they are going no where, in an age where people leave a lot earlier.

Seikaly averaged 10 ppg on a team putting up on avg close to 84 a game while Fab had 8 ppg on a team that averaged 71. Fab was several inches taller. And once again, the defenses of the two are not comparable.

This is what happens with the passage of time, people just state Seikaly and think of the Senior Seikaly. And even the Senior Seikaly was never as good as Fab on defense.

Rony was 6-10, athletic, could run like a deer and was in 10x better condition than Fab ever was. He certainly would have declared after two years if he in this current environment. He was competing in a league that featured, Ewing, Pinckney. Weddington and Walter Berry.

We're not waxing poetic about Andre Hawkins, Tony Bruin and Gene Waldron.

We're talking about guys that played in the golden era of the Big East and went on to long NBA careers.

I get that you wanna chalk it up to some old dudes trying to recapture the glory days, but if you talk to any basketball historians, they will point to the big east from 1984-1990 as being the best, deepest conference at the time. It's why there's a 30 for 30 about it.

Sometimes the old guys are right.

 

[Spock344]

1989 Team easily... There would be no stopping Coleman/Owens/Thompson on the inside, alley-oops... nor stopping their up-tempo style of play. Yes, 2012 was outstanding and would have better overall outside shooting, but the overall team would not match up well with 1989. And I slightly hesitate about better 3-pt shooting, cuz '89s frontcourt would either own the inside, or if doubled, Matt Roe would be left open to dominate from the outside.

1989 team averaged roughly 100 pts per game in the entire non-conference. Let that sink in. They eclipsed 100 pts eleven times that year. 11! Every starter avg. double-figures scoring. Unfortunately, I believe Douglas had back issues during the 2-3 game stretch of losses mid-season. Not to mention they played 11 games vs ranked teams that year. As many mentioned in the thread, poor FT shooting cost them in many of their losses. By comparison, the quality of competition and upperclassmen on a majority of '80s teams was much stiffer than in 2012. 2012 had a much more favorable schedule, as well.

 

[Jake]

Yes, you are missing the point. The point was the danger in spouting career statistics as the basis of the greatness of an individual season. Seikaly happens to be a great example of this back in the 80s. The look back and spouting of greats that played together, ie Pearl and Seikaly, doesn't capture their points in their careers.

. Understood, but there is also the counter error of not factoring the level of competition Seikaly faced night in and night out when accumulating his stats in a given year.

Fab Melo was a seven footer college player when very few teams had one.

Rony played against them much more often.

 

[RF2044]

This is a a great example of building up a team/person in retrospect.

Seikaly was a 6'10" spaz who averaged a pedestrian 10 a game as a soph. Seikaly is known for his huge improvement. And that improvement didn't make him above average until the NCAAT in his junior year - I remember him being called out by a Frosh from FL - seemed like a fire started and Schintz (?) woke a bear.

Yes, I guess we can go back and forth on this. But I think this is an excellent example of looking back through an Orange haze on the good old days.

Actually -- it's the exact opposite -- you applying extreme recency bias, ignoring both logic and empirical evidence that doesn't fit your questionable take.

Love ya, Sarge, but you're barking up the wrong tree on this one.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Rony was 6-10, athletic, could run like a deer and was in 10x better condition than Fab ever was. He certainly would have declared after two years if he in this current environment. He was competing in a league that featured, Ewing, Pinckney. Weddington and Walter Berry.

Rony was a soccer player and for the youth basketball coaches if you can get a good soccer player who plays basketball, draft them. They usually end up being a steal. They can run forever, are in condition and have good footwork. Rony was an athletic physical freak. His inexperience playing basketball itself caused some funny and frustrating moments but he was an elite athlete , special for a big man particularly back then. He was in a group that made athleticism at the center spot more a focus than the pure strong space eater type.