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[Edfromsodus]

Fab played a key role on our winningest team but he only averaged 7.8 points and 5.8 rebounds for that team with 2.9 blocks. Seikaly as a senior averaged 16.3 points, 9.8 rebounds and 2.4 blocks. Statistics aren't everything but that's quite a gap. Of course, he was a senior and Fab was only a sophomore but that's the point. Rony as a sophomore: 10.1p 7.8r 3.0b.

Fab was a defensive force for that team. I believe SU was 31-1 at one point. The one loss when Fab didn't play. But both players were great. Siekaly never got the love he deserved.

 

[HakAttack]

I’m with Sarge but to be fair I didn’t see the older teams live.

Either way, thank goodness SU basketball is legendary enough to be having this conversation!

 

[OrangeDW]

Actually -- it's the exact opposite -- you applying extreme recency bias, ignoring both logic and empirical evidence that doesn't fit your questionable take.

Love ya, Sarge, but you're barking up the wrong tree on this one.

I don’t see how its even a discussion. List the best Big East/ACC era pros SU produced. After Melo, the next 4 best would be Coleman, Seikaly, Douglas, and Owens...all of whom played here in the same era. Owens and Seikaly are the only ones that didn’t play together here at all. Peak Coleman-Seikaly-Douglas all played together. Peak Coleman-Douglas- and near peak Owens played together.

Thrown in that those guys stayed here 3-4 years and we actually SAW their peaks. I mean, you want to say that Seikaly wasn’t that good his first two years but every single talented guy we’ve had in this era has left school after one or two years before they were really THAT good. Waiters, MCW - they weren’t hear long enough to be an AA or BE player of the year or anything.

Owens and Coleman would be obvious one and dones now. Douglas would probably strike while the iron is hot after his soph. year like Flynn did.

 

[Newhouser]

Seikaly vs Fab is not close. The original Greek Freak also made DC that much more effective because Rony commanded attention.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Seikaly vs Fab is not close. The original Greek Freak also made DC that much more effective because Rony commanded attention.

What year Seikaly are you talking about? Because that is a big problem here. The frosh Seikaly has no resemblance to Senior Seikaly.

But eventually 2012 will be able to play that game. Rak on the bench (and whatever his now much better career averages are). And McW was the 4th guard (NBA lottery pick). Dion and his NBA pedigree was the 3rd guard I believe. Fab was a first rounder and BE DPOY and RJ I believe became the BE DPOY the next year.

 

[OrangeDW]

Seikaly vs Fab is not close. The original Greek Freak also made DC that much more effective because Rony commanded attention.

Right. As good as Fab was(and he and others on that team could’ve put up bigger numbers if needed as we were very deep and balanced), we saw peak Seikaly- which was a much more developed and polished player than Fab ever was.

Seikaly has numerous very good NBA seasons - 17 and 12, 16 and 11, etc. And that was in the era of Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Smits, Daugherty, etc...way better centers than what was in the NBA in the early 2010’s when Fab couldn’t even stick as a backup.

 

[OrangeDW]

What year Seikaly are you talking about? Because that is a big problem here. The frosh Seikaly has no resemblance to Senior Seikaly.

But eventually 2012 will be able to play that game. Rak on the bench (and whatever his now much better career averages are). And McW was the 4th guard (NBA lottery pick). Dion and his NBA pedigree was the 3rd guard I believe. Fab was a first rounder and BE DPOY and RJ I believe became the BE DPOY the next year.

That was a great team, no question. But Rak and Fab are not Seikaly and Coleman. Lots of good players, lots of pros on 2012 - but nobody on the level of Coleman or Owens. We’re talking the number 1 pick, and a future Olympian. Owens went number 3, and both teams picking at one and two had many in their organizations who wanted him. I remember reports at how Charlotte was really split over Owens or LJ at number 1. And many in NJ wanted Owens at 2, but they ultimately went with NYC bred Kenny Anderson thinking he’d draw more fans to the arena.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Fab was a defensive force for that team. I believe SU was 31-1 at one point. The one loss when Fab didn't play. But both players were great. Siekaly never got the love he deserved.

PPG should take into account the pace of play. None of our teams in the last decade could play as fast as those teams in the late 80s. And sadly to say I think JB is more comfortable playing like Wisconsin in the sunset of his career. Same reason older citizens drive way under the speed limit.

 

[OrangeDW]

PPG should take into account the pace of play. None of our teams in the last decade could play as fast as those teams in the late 80s. And sadly to say I think JB is more comfortable playing like Wisconsin in the sunset of his career. Same reason older citizens drive way under the speed limit.

None of our teams have had the offensive talent to run like that either though. We haven’t had athletes who run and finish like Thompson or a PG nearly as good at handling the ball, passing, and playing uptempo like Douglas, or forwards that can do it all like Owens and Coleman.

 

[MSOrange]

I’m with Sarge but to be fair I didn’t see the older teams live.

Either way, thank goodness SU basketball is legendary enough to be having this conversation!

Exactly. It's just fun we can have this conversation. On the Rutgers board, they're discussing the last time they made the NCAA 25 years ago.

 

[81South]

Rony was raw for sure early on. As I remember, and I could be off, he really became a consistent force his junior year. He was a huge reason we ended up in New Orleans in 87. His games against Florida and UNC in the sweet 16 and elite 8 were BIG TIME.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I’m with Sarge but to be fair I didn’t see the older teams live.

Either way, thank goodness SU basketball is legendary enough to be having this conversation!

Just to be clear, I think '12 should be in the discussion. 34-3 is outrageously good and two of those losses came without Fab.

One additional thing to like about the 80s era is you knew right from the start that SU had a good team. Because several very good players were carried over.

One slight disadvantage for the 80s was the in-game coaching. While I can't say exactly the reason, I just feel JB now is a much better coach. And the results of close games in the last 15-20 years would bear this out. I don't know the rules of these hypotheticals if you get to swap out the coach.

 

[OrangeDW]

Just to be clear, I think '12 should be in the discussion. 34-3 is outrageously good and two of those losses came without Fab.

One additional thing to like about the 80s era is you knew right from the start that SU had a good team. Because several very good players were carried over.

One slight disadvantage for the 80s was the in-game coaching. While I can't say exactly the reason, I just feel JB now is a much better coach. And the results of close games in the last 15-20 years would bear this out. I don't know the rules of these hypotheticals if you get to swap out the coach.

In comparison to the competition I could see arguing for 2012...or 2010. Both were the best/second best team in the country pretty much all year.

I think our 87-90 teams were better...but so were the other top teams in the country. Different era. We were one of the more talented teams in the country every season back then but you can’t really say we were best/second best. We were in the top 5-10, but UNLV had all time great teams, Michigan was loaded, Georgetown, UNC, Georgia Tech had some great teams, etc.

 

[OrangeDW]

After mentioning GT I looked them up out of curiosity...in 1990 they went 28-7 and made the final four behind 3 future first round picks, two of whom were long time starters in the NBA.

Would you believe they went 8-6 in the league? They beat Louisville, Temple, Georgia, ND, and Pitt non league, and then LSU, Michigan State, and Minnesota in the tourney. Clearly an excellent team. 8-6 in the league.

If you weren’t there, I’m not sure if you can fully appreciate how tough the ACC and Big East we’re back then. There were no DePaul’s or South Florida’s. Some teams would have mediocre records because everybody was tough and everybody beat up on everybody.

 

[tbonezone]

neither fab or raxmas could keep the moose man off the court.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

By the way, Chukwu is currently averaging 5.7p 6.1r 2.6b.

And I said this years center tandem, Sid is currently averaging 5ppg + 4rgp, you do the math.

 

[Knicks411]

After mentioning GT I looked them up out of curiosity...in 1990 they went 28-7 and made the final four behind 3 future first round picks, two of whom were long time starters in the NBA.

Would you believe they went 8-6 in the league? They beat Louisville, Temple, Georgia, ND, and Pitt non league, and then LSU, Michigan State, and Minnesota in the tourney. Clearly an excellent team. 8-6 in the league.

If you weren’t there, I’m not sure if you can fully appreciate how tough the ACC and Big East we’re back then. There were no DePaul’s or South Florida’s. Some teams would have mediocre records because everybody was tough and everybody beat up on everybody.

Wish they had Ken Pom data going back that far.

Anyway, they were 8-6, like you said, which was still good for third in the league. 8 team league, first place was 10-4, last place was 3-11. 5 of the 8 teams in the league won between 6 and 8 games. Obviously i know the answer now since I looked, but I never would have guessed who won the regular season ACC title that year.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

. Understood, but there is also the counter error of not factoring the level of competition Seikaly faced night in and night out when accumulating his stats in a given year.

Fab Melo was a seven footer college player when very few teams had one.

Rony played against them much more often.

I think this is just bogus, Rony did not play against more seven footers. There are more seven footers in this day and age in college. It is now routine for colleges to recruit tall foreigners. And SU is a prime example, we're now pulling in tall foreign centers with regularity.

Good players stayed longer back in the day, no doubt. But there were less tall centers. The idea that soph Rony could be 2nd team BE does not speak well to the depth of centers back then. Fab had a better sophomore year and was not listed 2nd team.