ESPN's David Hale ranked how he has ACC schools talent by position.

[RandomGuy]

BC is ranked high in most of the positions that matter to them...(minus Dline, but Zack Allen is good).

If they can do it, we can do it.

 

[Alsacs]

Poorly coached, mediocre talent equals bad defense. Defense has to step up this year in a big way for us to go bowling. With Shafer we had a defensive identity. A terrible HC, good D-Coordinator.

Shafer's D identity didn't work in the ACC. In 2013 we have faced good QBs and got torched. His identity would never work against the schedules we see daily. They worked in the Big East with that level of talent. Good QBs can always torch overload blitzes. The only good P5 O Shafer's system worked against was Geno Smith and WVU. That was because Geno got rattled from pressure.

This idea he was a great DC drives me nuts. He did a good job in 2010-2011. Our 2012 D wasn't great it was led by a great offense. 2013 again we were good against mediocre QBs and destroyed by good QBs. Destroyed to the degree it wasn't even competitive.

In our recent past our coaching on D for 3rd down has been stupid not just Shafer.
It's been overload blitz and leave yourself susceptible to screens or we have played soft zones with cushions and WRs find the holes and get first downs.

Our 3rd D last year was great. It was a combination of making plays and getting lucky. It lasted 8 games and we were competitive as a result.

 

[RandomGuy]

These articles are stupid.

We're in that dead time of year where camp hasn't started yet, but the start of the season is tantalizingly close. There isn't much to talk about, but there is a desire for something - ANYTHING! - to read, so pieces like this get written and devoured. All the better that it comes with charts and "advanced statistics" and such, giving it the veneer of accurate analysis (note: I'm 100% in favor of advanced statistics in measuring and detecting things in a team that often escape the "eye test").

What makes articles like this stupid are that they, by definition, cannot account for improvements and developmental gains in the off season. This is not the NFL, where players are closer to finished products (but by no means actual finished products). We're talking about incoming true freshman (more and more of whom are ready to contribute year 1 due to early enrollment and more demanding high school regimens). Young men 18-22 are still growing and maturing - physically and mentally - such that massive gains are possible year to year. The game slows down for guys. Units gain cohesion with continuity. Coaching turnover (not just head coach, but position coaches), or lack thereof, is a major factor in teaching and absorbing schemes.

This doesn't even touch the task of separating out talent from scheme (i.e. will schools, with the benefit of an entire offseason, be able to better defend BC's run game, which came out of nowhere midseason).

A tried and true seasoned talent evaluater would be extremely hard pressed to sort out and rank individual units on all 14 ACC teams. For a journalist to take it on, with the expectation that it is at all meaningful, is folly.

GIGO - garbage in, garbage out. It isn't a knock on Hale, it's just a recognition that there are simply too many unknown and unmeasurable variables to undertake such an evaluation with the hope that it has any worthwhile conclusions.

I enjoy them... Sure, lots of speculation. He did account for improvements.. Check the oline #.

It's not rocket science. With a working football knowledge, you can make some predictions that have a reasonable chance of being accurate. Do I think it's 100% accurate? Nahh. Interesting to see another perspective, though.

 

[Chip]

DL at 14 surprises me. I know the depth still may not be there, but the top 5 all have the size, experience to play well.

I try not to overrate our talent, as happens so often here, but it's hard to believe that our DL isn't middle of the pack yet.

Not much to say about any of the other rankings. Seeing a #2 in QB is a thing of beauty.

 

[leftytg]

I enjoy them... Sure, lots of speculation. He did account for improvements.. Check the oline #.

It's not rocket science. With a working football knowledge, you can make some predictions that have a reasonable chance of being accurate. Do I think it's 100% accurate? Nahh. Interesting to see another perspective, though.

I don't mean to knock you, or anyone, for enjoying them. Such articles are perfectly enjoyable while we impatiently wait for the season to get into swing. My post was mostly commenting on the absurdity of drawing meaningful conclusions from such articles.

It's a lot like those pre-season prediction articles. They are fun to read and hit that spot we all have to read content while we wait. But at the end of the season when you go back and compare the pre-season predictions with the actual results, it is always comical how far off everything is. I'm simply advocating that, while enjoying such articles, take them with a massive grain of salt rather than a serious piece of analysis.

 

[upperdeck]

when every team we played had 3-4 WRs that seemed like they could just out run every DB we had I am not sure what D we could run that would work.. Our Blitzers struggled to get home and if we sat back the QB had so much time the WR just ran until they got open.. between injuries and the RS I think we have a huge uptick in athleticism. Lets hope that equates to play on the field. Martin did some huge things last year and I think we have 2-3 kids with that ability this year if they dont blow coverages.. Add in Cordy and healthy guys, instead of 1 armed or 1 legged DBs it wont take a lot to see better DB play.

we started about 5-6 deep at DB last year. I think we have 8-9 guys this year

LBs will tell the story of the D. .

 

[orange_in_VA]

Shafer's D identity didn't work in the ACC. In 2013 we have faced good QBs and got torched. His identity would never work against the schedules we see daily. They worked in the Big East with that level of talent. Good QBs can always torch overload blitzes. The only good P5 O Shafer's system worked against was Geno Smith and WVU. That was because Geno got rattled from pressure.

This idea he was a great DC drives me nuts. He did a good job in 2010-2011. Our 2012 D wasn't great it was led by a great offense. 2013 again we were good against mediocre QBs and destroyed by good QBs. Destroyed to the degree it wasn't even competitive.

In our recent past our coaching on D for 3rd down has been stupid not just Shafer.
It's been overload blitz and leave yourself susceptible to screens or we have played soft zones with cushions and WRs find the holes and get first downs.

Our 3rd D last year was great. It was a combination of making plays and getting lucky. It lasted 8 games and we were competitive as a result.

Shafers first year defense at MTSU jumped about 60 spots from the previous season (#96 to #35 in total defense). His defense literally led that team to a bowl game after their QB and top WR got injured. The guy knows how to coach defense. A bunch of really good football coaches have hired him to do so. I'm pretty sure they know a lot more than you do. Your Shafer hate is so over-dramatic.

 

[SoBristol]

Yes, the articles are enjoyable, but heavily influenced by what happened last season (and the two before that).
Our defense is laced with juniors and sophomores -- Robinson, Coleman, Black, Foster etc. -- plus some seniors who are stepping into new positions (Whitner & Guthrie at two LB spots). The basis for hope is that we have returning starters in 8 positions and younger talent recruited by Babers in the wings.

 

[Alsacs]

Shafers first year defense at MTSU jumped about 60 spots from the previous season (#96 to #35 in total defense). His defense literally led that team to a bowl game after their QB and top WR got injured. The guy knows how to coach defense. A bunch of really good football coaches have hired him to do so. I'm pretty sure they know a lot more than you do. Your Shafer hate is so over-dramatic.

I hate what his hiring as HC did to the growth the program after what we had gone thru with Robinson. We went cheap and got what we paid and is why this current roster is in a major rebuild.

I am not impressed by their season last year. I said the overload blitz stuff works with in Big East level type competition where the QB isn't close to as good on a weekly basis as it is a P5 league.
Good QBs carve up Shafer's type of overload blitz. If it doesn't get turnovers the D will get gashed by good QBs
I will never ease up on Shafer as I said his hiring was terrible.

 

[orange_in_VA]

I hate what his hiring as HC did to the growth the program after what we had gone thru with Robinson. We went cheap and got what we paid and is why this current roster is in a major rebuild.

I am not impressed by their season last year. I said the overload blitz stuff works with in Big East level type competition where the QB isn't close to as good on a weekly basis as it is a P5 league.
Good QBs carve up Shafer's type of overload blitz. If it doesn't get turnovers the D will get gashed by good QBs
I will never ease up on Shafer as I said his hiring was terrible.

Worked pretty well against our ACC team last year...

 

[Finwad32]

I hate what his hiring as HC did to the growth the program after what we had gone thru with Robinson. We went cheap and got what we paid and is why this current roster is in a major rebuild.

I am not impressed by their season last year. I said the overload blitz stuff works with in Big East level type competition where the QB isn't close to as good on a weekly basis as it is a P5 league.
Good QBs carve up Shafer's type of overload blitz. If it doesn't get turnovers the D will get gashed by good QBs
I will never ease up on Shafer as I said his hiring was terrible.

And yet, as far as W's are concerned thus far... Terrible or not.

The exaggeration of SS's lack of coaching skills, on this board, is borderline laughable, As is the "left the cupboard bare" argument. He left the cupboard the same way he inherited it. Doug Marrone was a fantastic coach, not a fantastic recruiter of talent. Syracuse's recruiting has been relatively consistent for the past two decades, second to third tier.

Shafe certainly had an odd presser or two, and he misfired on the OC hiring initially, which was his ultimate downfall here. But to say he can't coach, well it's just false. Don't take my word for it, ask Jim Harbaugh or Doug Marrone.

 

[RandomGuy]

DL at 14 surprises me. I know the depth still may not be there, but the top 5 all have the size, experience to play well.

Sure. Check BC. They have a 2cnd team preseason All American, we have a 3rd. They're only ranked 12. I think it speaks more to how stacked the division is. We're not in Kansas, anymore... ;-)

(..there's no place like dome, no place like dome...)

 

[Alsacs]

And yet, as far as W's are concerned thus far... Terrible or not.

The exaggeration of SS's lack of coaching skills, on this board, is borderline laughable, As is the "left the cupboard bare" argument. He left the cupboard the same way he inherited it. Doug Marrone was a fantastic coach, not a fantastic recruiter of talent. Syracuse's recruiting has been relatively consistent for the past two decades, second to third tier.

Shafe certainly had an odd presser or two, and he misfired on the OC hiring initially, which was his ultimate downfall here. But to say he can't coach, well it's just false. Don't take my word for it, ask Jim Harbaugh or Doug Marrone.

That game we lost. So he has that. Our team didn’t play a complete game so they lost. It doesn’t mean squat about SS’s coaching.
He should have never gotten the SU HC job and for that I don’t like the guy. Congrats he got it and is a likable guy.
His hiring set us back.

 

[Alsacs]

And yet, as far as W's are concerned thus far... Terrible or not.

The exaggeration of SS's lack of coaching skills, on this board, is borderline laughable, As is the "left the cupboard bare" argument. He left the cupboard the same way he inherited it. Doug Marrone was a fantastic coach, not a fantastic recruiter of talent. Syracuse's recruiting has been relatively consistent for the past two decades, second to third tier.

Shafe certainly had an odd presser or two, and he misfired on the OC hiring initially, which was his ultimate downfall here. But to say he can't coach, well it's just false. Don't take my word for it, ask Jim Harbaugh or Doug Marrone.

Greg Robinson did well as the DC for Texas when he went back there in 2013.

Shafer is solid as a DC. So congrats I will say he can be a good DC. I don’t think his job here was that great.
The best job was the 2010 defense.
I don’t miss his style as again it’s got torched in the ACC when it faced.
I give Shafer this he dominated a rebuilding Wake Forest.
Dino has gone 0-2 against them.

I still would take Dino all day long.

 

[721Comstock]

And yet, as far as W's are concerned thus far... Terrible or not.

The exaggeration of SS's lack of coaching skills, on this board, is borderline laughable, As is the "left the cupboard bare" argument. He left the cupboard the same way he inherited it. Doug Marrone was a fantastic coach, not a fantastic recruiter of talent. Syracuse's recruiting has been relatively consistent for the past two decades, second to third tier.

Shafe certainly had an odd presser or two, and he misfired on the OC hiring initially, which was his ultimate downfall here. But to say he can't coach, well it's just false. Don't take my word for it, ask Jim Harbaugh or Doug Marrone.

I don't think anybody says he can't coach DEFENSE.
He's proven that on many occasions before and after his time at SU.

But he wasn't a good HEAD Coach, and that's not really something with much room to debate either.

Even GERG managed a few Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wins (of the very few W's he had, period), and St Dougie and Dino also both had some noteworthy upsets - Dino's W over Clemson is the biggest pelt taken at Syracuse in over THREE DECADES.

Shafer had exactly zero notable upset wins.

And as far as the "leaving the cupboard bare" - he did.
His recruiting classes always had the 1-2 semi-highly ranked kids who never even made it here, or did nothing if they did. And the rest were all the spunky, undersized guys - because that's all he could land.

Dino and crew are bringing in ACC-caliber and sized talent now.
All you have to do is compare the offer sheets of the last 2-3 classes, vs the guys Shafer was getting - it's like night and day. No Akron to be found anywhere now!

 

[Finwad32]

I'm not having the same debate we've had umpteen times before. It's a merry go round.

I got sucked in GDit

 

[RandomGuy]

I'm not having the same debate we've had umpteen times before. It's a merry go round.

I got sucked in GDit

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

 

[blizz]

DL at 14 surprises me. I know the depth still may not be there, but the top 5 all have the size, experience to play well.

I try not to overrate our talent, as happens so often here, but it's hard to believe that our DL isn't middle of the pack yet.

Not much to say about any of the other rankings. Seeing a #2 in QB is a thing of beauty.

The one thing that explains it for me is lack of returning production. On paper, the dline didn't produce a whole lot last year in terms of stats. Factor in the loss of Samuels, who played a significant role (again, not huge but noticeable), and that will knock down returning production that much more. Just my 2 coppers.

 

[orange_in_VA]

I don't think anybody says he can't coach DEFENSE.
He's proven that on many occasions before and after his time at SU.

But he wasn't a good HEAD Coach, and that's not really something with much room to debate either.

Even GERG managed a few Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wins (of the very few W's he had, period), and St Dougie and Dino also both had some noteworthy upsets - Dino's W over Clemson is the biggest pelt taken at Syracuse in over THREE DECADES.

Shafer had exactly zero notable upset wins.

And as far as the "leaving the cupboard bare" - he did.
His recruiting classes always had the 1-2 semi-highly ranked kids who never even made it here, or did nothing if they did. And the rest were all the spunky, undersized guys - because that's all he could land.

Dino and crew are bringing in ACC-caliber and sized talent now.
All you have to do is compare the offer sheets of the last 2-3 classes, vs the guys Shafer was getting - it's like night and day. No Akron to be found anywhere now!

Alsacs post was literally that Shafer isn't a good coach of defense. I was stating that he's wrong and has been wrong a lot about Shafer because he loves to hate the guy. Nobody defending Shafer in this thread even mentioned Babers or his recruits. You don't have to hate Shafer to like Babers or the other way around. This guy is gonna end up hating Babers too if we don't start winning games. I've never gotten the point of hating a coach who was unsuccessful. Winning in our division is incredibly hard. It was for Shafer and it has been for Babers. Babers will get the time to right the ship that Shafer didn't get because we're not the type of program who can keep recycling coaches every 3 years. Look how that's been working out for teams like us and Kansas who are P5 bottom feeders.

 

[orange_in_VA]

And yet, as far as W's are concerned thus far... Terrible or not.

The exaggeration of SS's lack of coaching skills, on this board, is borderline laughable, As is the "left the cupboard bare" argument. He left the cupboard the same way he inherited it. Doug Marrone was a fantastic coach, not a fantastic recruiter of talent. Syracuse's recruiting has been relatively consistent for the past two decades, second to third tier.

Shafe certainly had an odd presser or two, and he misfired on the OC hiring initially, which was his ultimate downfall here. But to say he can't coach, well it's just false. Don't take my word for it, ask Jim Harbaugh or Doug Marrone.

This. Thank you

 

[cusefan88]

I feel better about the DB potential. Look at the length of the new faces. Meli (6'3), Trill (6'2), Johnson (6'3), Clarke (6'2), and so on. Way more size added.

 

[Ish88888]

Is that #2 ranking account for the inevitable Dungy injury and DeVito stepping in?

That's a low blow and I am sure based solely on ED

 

[Ish88888]

Shafer's D identity didn't work in the ACC. In 2013 we have faced good QBs and got torched. His identity would never work against the schedules we see daily. They worked in the Big East with that level of talent. Good QBs can always torch overload blitzes. The only good P5 O Shafer's system worked against was Geno Smith and WVU. That was because Geno got rattled from pressure.

This idea he was a great DC drives me nuts. He did a good job in 2010-2011. Our 2012 D wasn't great it was led by a great offense. 2013 again we were good against mediocre QBs and destroyed by good QBs. Destroyed to the degree it wasn't even competitive.

In our recent past our coaching on D for 3rd down has been stupid not just Shafer.
It's been overload blitz and leave yourself susceptible to screens or we have played soft zones with cushions and WRs find the holes and get first downs.

Our 3rd D last year was great. It was a combination of making plays and getting lucky. It lasted 8 games and we were competitive as a result.

I believe our D also lit up some top 15 Louisville offenses led by Bridgewater. Totally unfair to say he wasnt a very good DC. He made so many players better including converting #32 from a rb to a pro lb. Producing at least 6 pros off the top of my head... Our D could play with anyone.

 

[Ish88888]

He explains on rankings. Here

Looking at the composite we have a talent problem that Dino is cleaning up. He wasn't left depth. Last year's Seniors Ish/Irv/Zaire/Bennett were really huge.

It is good our QB/OL are trending up. However our biggest problem has been talent on defense. Dino hopefully has these underclassmen ready to contribute at the P5 level this year or at worst by next year.

Dungey is going to have to carry us to 6 wins.
No excuse for us not developing defensive talent to be competitve. If BC can do it we can soon. Dino has had to overhaul the defensive talent.

Excellent respect for ED. That said, defensive ratings of 14, 13, 13 across the board for our D is scary but probably spot on. Think the Dline can leave that rating in the dust and be at least 5-7 in the league. Love McKinley and the size and speed of our ends of course led by CS. The backers and secondary will be an uphill battle.

 

[Trueblue25]

Greg Robinson did well as the DC for Texas when he went back there in 2013.

Shafer is solid as a DC. So congrats I will say he can be a good DC. I don’t think his job here was that great.
The best job was the 2010 defense.
I don’t miss his style as again it’s got torched in the ACC when it faced.
I give Shafer this he dominated a rebuilding Wake Forest.
Dino has gone 0-2 against them.

I still would take Dino all day long.

Dont relent. HCSS could coach a defense but he was inept in all other facets of running a program.