Feelings of Hopelessness for this Program amidst the Gaslighting

[hoopsupstate]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Kline has a couple of European players coming in next year.

 

[Nicknack]

I don't believe in many absolutes in this world. Almost everything is and should be up for discussion or consideration.

• Fans that shout from social media that Adrian Autry absolutely cannot get the job done and 100% should be fired are extreme. And that is a non-productive stance to take.
• Fans (and apparently administrators) that take the position that Adrian Autry absolutely cannot be fired and 100% must be given the job next year? That's wrong too.

Why are so many so damm entrenched, so unable to have a real, level-headed discussion of the pros and the cons of making a change? I hear so many people calling into radio sounding like their best friend has died, saying this is the worst they have seen this program in 50+ years, saying they have no interest any more, and then saying "We have to give him one more year". Its gaslighting to the Nth degree. No we don't. Maybe we should. Maybe that's where we land after a discussion of all options. But NOTHING is entitled in this world, especially when it comes along with offensive and defensive schemes that look dusted off from the days of underhanded free throws. Nothing innovative is happening under Autry. It's awful. We lose to bad teams, and get destroyed by good ones.

I believe Autry is likely in way over his head and like Jerod Mayo, the beloved but unqualified former Patriots coach, likely needs to be relieved of his duties. That's not an absolute, but I feel confident enough about it that I believe it needs serious consideration.

But that said, I'm not even saying a change MUST be made. But I'm so tired of this defeatist attitude that we have NO choice but to eat one more season of terrible basketball, taking us one season farther from competitiveness.

I saw a social post that was a mind fark. It said that this current graduating class will have NEVER seen this team in a Tourney. That's INSANE. We need to do everything to make sure next year's doesn't suffer the same fate. That may include Autry and this staff, if may not. But ALL OPTIONS need to be considered at the highest levels.

There has GOT to be a way to save the incoming class without sacrificing the future of the program. Isn't it worth even trying?

It just feels so hopeless.

Sorry, but Autry should be fired because he hasn't gotten the job done and shows nothing that would lead any sane person that he can in the future. I guess I'm an extremist. That said, if he would start limiting Carlos' minutes to less than 5 a game, he might have me reconsider.

 

[chuck]

Sorry, but Autry should be fired because he hasn't gotten the job done and shows nothing that would lead any sane person that he can in the future. I guess I'm an extremist. That said, if would start limiting Carlos' minutes to less than 5 a game, he might have me reconsider.

I agree with u 100%. If not were gonna be sitting here next few years wondering why he's still head coach.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

Sorry, but Autry should be fired because he hasn't gotten the job done and shows nothing that would lead any sane person that he can in the future. I guess I'm an extremist. That said, if would start limiting Carlos' minutes to less than 5 a game, he might have me reconsider.

You sound like a realist here to me.

 

[jdubs30]

So my question for the board is “what if” they are a really good team next year and win a bunch of games ? What is everyone going to say changed ? And none of that is condescending, I’m genuinely interested what the messaging is going to be. I assume it will be roster makeup.. I had a great conversation with Alex K couple days ago and he knows exactly what needs to change for next year regarding that and already has some things working

Red won 20 games with Judah/Maliq. I do assume the talent will be much better next year so hopefully 20 wins will be back on the table. I’d like to see Red take a team we thought would win 20 games, and win 28 games. Or noticeable improvements from multiple guys over the course of the year - I don’t think we’ve had that this year at all. I’d like to see some semblance of an identity/system. Consistent thoughtful substitution patterns. Having players in obvious roles. Better timeout usage.

It’s a lot of obvious and basic things that I think we all notice. I expect a lot of roster turnover but I think I will be for the better. Let’s see if Red can those players in better positions to make plays and maximize their abilities.

 

[Red2003]

Red won 20 games with Judah/Maliq. I do assume the talent will be much better next year so hopefully 20 wins will be back on the table. I’d like to see Red take a team we thought would win 20 games, and win 28 games. Or noticeable improvements from multiple guys over the course of the year - I don’t think we’ve had that this year at all. I’d like to see some semblance of an identity/system. Consistent thoughtful substitution patterns. Having players in obvious roles. Better timeout usage.

It’s a lot of obvious and basic things that I think we all notice. I expect a lot of roster turnover but I think I will be for the better. Let’s see if Red can those players in better positions to make plays and maximize their abilities.

You’re about to get beat up on this thread.

It is worth repeating though that the last 2 off seasons our best player left. Jesse and then Brown both cuz of money. Does that mean Autry sucks, does that mean we’re cheap, does that mean our program is a joke. Prob a mix of all. It’s all gotta change.

 

[RF2044]

You’re about to get beat up on this thread.

It is worth repeating though that the last 2 off seasons our best player left. Jesse and then Brown both cuz of money. Does that mean Autry sucks, does that mean we’re cheap, does that mean our program is a joke. Prob a mix of all. It’s all gotta change.

All of it.

 

[Irishsecra1]

So my question for the board is “what if” they are a really good team next year and win a bunch of games ? What is everyone going to say changed ? And none of that is condescending, I’m genuinely interested what the messaging is going to be. I assume it will be roster makeup.. I had a great conversation with Alex K couple days ago and he knows exactly what needs to change for next year regarding that and already has some things working

Better talent
Better intangibles with the players
A real point guard
An offensive identity
A defensive scheme that is teachable and fits with the talents of the team
Red took some courses to become a better game day coach.
Development of a team culture that emphasizes hard work and never give up attitude
An assistant coach who could be a mentor to Red

All of these could improve the team next year.

 

[Fly Rodder]

So my question for the board is “what if” they are a really good team next year and win a bunch of games ? What is everyone going to say changed ? And none of that is condescending, I’m genuinely interested what the messaging is going to be. I assume it will be roster makeup.. I had a great conversation with Alex K couple days ago and he knows exactly what needs to change for next year regarding that and already has some things working

I don’t think that any program can improve 100 or so spots in KenPom/NET (which is what Syracuse needs to do to be a tourney team at minimum) in a year without wholesale major change. We’re not nibbling around the edges here.

 

[MikeSU02]

So my question for the board is “what if” they are a really good team next year and win a bunch of games ? What is everyone going to say changed ? And none of that is condescending, I’m genuinely interested what the messaging is going to be. I assume it will be roster makeup.. I had a great conversation with Alex K couple days ago and he knows exactly what needs to change for next year regarding that and already has some things working

Think about how bad things have to be for you to have to pose this hypothetical.

What if? Then people would be happy we're winning. Great, I'll be the first in line to eat crow and apologize to you.

And you pointing to "roster makeup" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in coverage for Red or assuming Red is a good coach. The change that has to be made is Red is removed. NET of 147. The teams ahead of us? Murray State, ETSU, JMU, Miami (OH) and Louisiana Tech. Do they have more talent than us? BTW, Ark St is at 92 NET. So if you are saying Red is doing a good job, does that mean Hodgson is doing an insanely great job since he definitely has less talented players than us?

Here's a more pointed question -- do you or do you not think we'll make the NCAAT next year? I don't even care what seed -- do you think we'll make the NCAAT?

I get it, you are good with Red and prob Alex.

But to anyone that is in this thread that thinks Red is coaching well, at this point it's magical thinking. All due respect, and Red deserves respect for his contribution to Syracuse basketball and the community, but this isn't an argument anymore. If the school has to keep him another year? Sure. Whatever.

But after the last ten years of having to listen to people push back on "data". The Joe v Kadary debate. JB's allowing us to slide deep into the "we don't matter" abyss, the "Maliq is just a role player" and coming into this year about JC, the overall talent, etc... I'm just done with it.

So, what if we're good next year? Great. But what if we all won the lottery next year? Also great!

Neither will happen.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Our two best players are a shooting guard that can’t shoot or defend and a center who can’t run, block shots, or defend. The entire operation needs to be rebuilt.

 

[Cstate]

Our two best players are a shooting guard that can’t shoot or defend and a center who can’t run, block shots, or defend. The entire operation needs to be rebuilt.

1,000,000,000,000% fact

 

[SwagSocks]

So my question for the board is “what if” they are a really good team next year and win a bunch of games ? What is everyone going to say changed ? And none of that is condescending, I’m genuinely interested what the messaging is going to be. I assume it will be roster makeup.. I had a great conversation with Alex K couple days ago and he knows exactly what needs to change for next year regarding that and already has some things working

It depends how they play. It depends on how Red is subbing and his feel for the game. Is there more defensive intensity, etc.
The “what if” has a ton of variables.

All I know is that in different sports, you see how coaching impacts the team a lot more than adding “talent and money and stir”.

I saw it this year with the Commanders in NFL.
I saw it with the Cubs when they added Joe Madden in 2015.
tons of other examples.

A lot of it is controlling the locker room too. I worked in MLB for a decade, and having toxic locker rooms and lack of leadership (from player level and coaching) is the difference between bad and good teams (is there a player leader at Cuse currently? Does Red control the locker room? Honest questions)

At pros and in power conference college basketball, all of these players are talented and good. There are a few levels of “good” but the separator , in my opinion, is harnessing that collective talent and maximizing it (coaching)

 

[RF2044]

Think about how bad things have to be for you to have to pose this hypothetical.

What if? Then people would be happy we're winning. Great, I'll be the first in line to eat crow and apologize to you.

And you pointing to "roster makeup" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in coverage for Red or assuming Red is a good coach. The change that has to be made is Red is removed. NET of 147. The teams ahead of us? Murray State, ETSU, JMU, Miami (OH) and Louisiana Tech. Do they have more talent than us? BTW, Ark St is at 92 NET. So if you are saying Red is doing a good job, does that mean Hodgson is doing an insanely great job since he definitely has less talented players than us?

Here's a more pointed question -- do you or do you not think we'll make the NCAAT next year? I don't even care what seed -- do you think we'll make the NCAAT?

I get it, you are good with Red and prob Alex.

But to anyone that is in this thread that thinks Red is coaching well, at this point it's magical thinking. All due respect, and Red deserves respect for his contribution to Syracuse basketball and the community, but this isn't an argument anymore. If the school has to keep him another year? Sure. Whatever.

But after the last ten years of having to listen to people push back on "data". The Joe v Kadary debate. JB's allowing us to slide deep into the "we don't matter" abyss, the "Maliq is just a role player" and coming into this year about JC, the overall talent, etc... I'm just done with it.

So, what if we're good next year? Great. But what if we all won the lottery next year? Also great!

Neither will happen.

Great post.

 

[orange79]

Here's a more pointed question -- do you or do you not think we'll make the NCAAT next year? I don't even care what seed -- do you think we'll make the NCAAT?

To be fair, this is an unanswerable question, as it will be for most years for most teams.

With the advent of the portal, even hazarding a guess as to what futures years will look like is an exercise in futility.

 

[Scooch]

Red was given his NIL budget request plus some from the collectives (not the AD).

This is among the many things that concerns me. Autry thought $2.5 million was enough. He was very, very wrong.

I was fine with him drawing the line and not countering Edwards for the third time in 2023. But that also meant he knew the going rate for a C. If he didn't anticipate that growing in this environment, and didn't recognize that acquiring a new C, plus a top-end PG, plus strong rotational pieces, plus retaining Starling/Bell, etc., was going to cost a lot as well... it was a real failure of planning.

 

[Scooch]

So my question for the board is “what if” they are a really good team next year and win a bunch of games ? What is everyone going to say changed ? And none of that is condescending, I’m genuinely interested what the messaging is going to be. I assume it will be roster makeup.. I had a great conversation with Alex K couple days ago and he knows exactly what needs to change for next year regarding that and already has some things working

Well, we can't say what changed until we know how this hypothetical really good team wins those bunch of games, right?

Maybe we landed an All-American PG in the portal. Maybe Sadiq White is the second coming of Carmelo. Maybe Autry unleashed a strategic acumen that no one could have possibly anticipated.

I'm not an absolutist. There's a multiverse where everything goes incredibly right this offseason in terms of player acquisition, Autry and the staff take huge leaps strategy-wise, and next year we're a tourney team. Nothing is impossible.

I will say that I suspect we could use ChatGPT to crowd source "what needs to change" from all the posts on this board over the past 4 months and it'd mirror what Kline said. This really isn't rocket science. I mean, by all accounts Autry said all the right things this past summer too. And everyone attending practices assured us this was going to be a tourney team.

Talk is cheap. And I'm not being condescending with that either. People have talked a great game for most of the past 10 seasons. And ultimately it didn't mean much.

 

[kcsu]

So in summary --

Our coach ---

Can't identify talent
Can't coach Xs and Os
Can't coach up lesser talent
Can't develop kids
Can't in-game coach with rotation
Can't figure out late-game strategy on the fly

What is one aspect of coaching Red does well??

the kids like him. Might not respect but do like

 

[MikeSU02]

To be fair, this is an unanswerable question, as it will be for most years for most teams.

With the advent of the portal, even hazarding a guess as to what futures years will look like is an exercise in futility.

If the program is at the point where this question is unanswerable without extenuating circumstances (rash of injuries, etc), then the AD and HC and all assistants should be exited.

We were a tier 2 program, all time. This type of thinking is what's allowed the mess that was the second probation and the broken Hop transition to JB being allowed to have his family and friends teams to Red being where we are now.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I've made a similar post to this as well, it just kinda blows my mind some of the excuses being made.

LeMoyne is 355th in the country in Ken Pom (out of 364!). We beat them by 4, at home! They have playte 2 teams in the top 100 at KP all year; they lost at Notre Dame by 29 and at Uconn by 41. I repeat, we beat them by 4 at home.

Colgate is 242nd, we beat them by 2. At home! Youngstown state is 195th, we beat them in double OT. (Say it with me) at home! BC is 207, same thing, double ot at home. We have beaten one team in the top 100 all year (Notre Dame is #90, at home of course. Georgia Tech is 101, we also beat them. at home)

If you want to say we need more money to compete at the highest levels, that is surely true. If you want to say we need more money or else we are destined to barely beat LeMoyne, Youngston State, and Colgate, then let's just say I disagree.

Great post. The issues were obvious after the first 3 games. That’s why statements like “all that matters is we won”... total nonsense. In a single elimination format like the NCAAT that is true. When it’s against LeMoyne and Colgate before thanksgiving…. Uhh, the how kinda matters.

And hey don’t sell that barnburner short, it was TRIPLE OT!

 

[kcsu]

I suspect this is basically a “what if my aunt had balls” kind of question - it has a hypothetical but completely irrelevant answer because it’s not going to happen. But if the impossible happens and we’re not terrible with Red next year, the most likely reason would be roster upgrade. If Red is largely booted out of selecting a team, maybe at least that gap in his skill set (that he cannot identify talent) gets minimized. If we didn’t see evidence he got help on in game coaching so that was less of a disaster than it’s been this year, I wouldn’t feel like anything was really fixed in a way that would be sustainable though.

Then you would have to call her Uncle Jane

 

[kcsu]

Top to bottom this is the worst talent and worst coaching i have seen since Roys days. This team sucks in every aspect of Basketball. They are really bad. Beyond anything SU has ever rolled out.

 

[orange79]

If the program is at the point where this question is unanswerable without extenuating circumstances (rash of injuries, etc), then the AD and HC and all assistants should be exited.

We were a tier 2 program, all time. This type of thinking is what's allowed the mess that was the second probation and the broken Hop transition to JB being allowed to have his family and friends teams to Red being where we are now.

I'm not trying to support anyone here. I'm saying that this is a problem for many teams. Period. If you don't agree, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[NineOneSeven]

It has been mentioned before but Louisville is the perfectly relevant example of how things can turn around quickly. Atrocious 2 seasons with a clearly overmatched HC, bring in a new guy that literally brings in an entirely new team, and they are in the right side of winning again (with a couple of injuries too!).

It’s the exact reason there should be hope.

 

[MikeSU02]

I'm not trying to support anyone here. I'm saying that this is a problem for many teams. Period. If you don't agree, I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't mean to come off as aggressive, so apologies. But my point is this -- it's not an insurmountable problem. And, for a program with our history, I think it is a fair expectation to be able to make the NCAAT, without regard for seed as a baseline.

So is it a problem? Sure. There are a lot of challenges. But good programs climb that mountain. And I do not believe it is too much to ask to have that expectation.