For a team that finished 3-9...

[SoBristol]

You mean the year where Jerome Smith was pounding it and defenses probably were relieved when we sent someone else in other than PTG? The year that McFarlane ran for like 50 yards less than Morris, but on 31 less carries?

Again, I hope all of our RBs prove me wrong next year, but I don't have much faith in any of them at this point in time.

Cheers,
Neil

SU fans tend to take a rosy view of our returning players -- RB being a prime example.

 

[djorange1989]

I think we could use a WR in this class too. Without seeing Lester's offense, on paper it sounds like a much better fit with our personnel. The square peg in round hole scheme GMac put in last year, along with injuries, combined to kill our offense.

 

[Scooch]

Average at best? Guess I don't understand "average". West is 5th in SU history for receptions and finished 7th in receiving yards... ahead of Art Monk, Quinton Spotwood, and Rob Carpenter. PTG avg 4.8 rushing yards per carry this season and 5.1 yards for his career. Do you have stats supporting that his 1st down carries resulted in 2nd and long situations? Even his receiving yards per play is 5.1 and that's in an offense that throws screens behind the LOS with 1 blocker and 3 defenders.

You should look at how often we threw in the years those guys played vs. today.

Context matters.

 

[kcsu]

I think that we are going to have a break out year. I believe in Lester actually think he is our best O coach by a long shot and love his experiance. The 12 is perfect for us. We are never going to beat FSU and Clemson at their own game. Playing power football is the way to some what even the field with them. Take a look at what BC accomplished this year. The 12 allows us to utilize 2 or 3 WR and we have more enough talent returning with Ish, Ash, Bris, and a slew of others. Trey was a huge get for us as he is game ready and will in my opinion start from day one. As to recruiting it is great to see the big uglies make a come back. Lots of talents on both lines coming in which is where you win games. With the IPF complete, Cuse in the ACC i predict good things next year. I believe that we win 6 or 7 get back in a bowl and begin a steady climb.

 

[007]

I think we could use a WR in this class too. Without seeing Lester's offense, on paper it sounds like a much better fit with our personnel. The square peg in round hole scheme GMac put in last year, along with injuries, combined to kill our offense.

I still think all the "GM's scheme is what killed the offense" talk is way off the mark. Execution, timing, passing accuracy, route running, pass blocking, marginal talent, play calling/inability to score in red zone, game planning, and injuries had a MUCH GREATER impact on the O's inability to score points than the scheme. GM and "his offense" have become the scapegoat poster child for all that went wrong.

Taking the OC away from GM did not, and will not, make all the above issues disappear. There are multiple reasons why we are only 1 of 2 P5 teams that have not been ranked in this era.

 

[RMH44]

Agree that those things will help.

But there are larger, systemic issues impairing our productivity on offense. Foundational issues that are holding us back.

Yes there was/is, but the major problem this year was injuries on the offensive side of the ball...especially along the OL. If our OL remained in tact, AJ might have had a chance to be functional.

Sean Hickey is a warrior, he played the entire season banged-up as did Trudo and Robinson who actually missed games.

 

[TheCusian]

Yes there was/is, but the major problem this year was injuries on the offensive side of the ball...especially along the OL. If our OL remained in tact, AJ might have had a chance to be functional. Sean Hickey is a warrior, he played the entire season banged-up as did Trudo and Robinson who actually missed games.

I think if Hunt and the line were healthy we'd have finished 6-6 and headed to a bowl.

And folks would still be calling for OC/HC turnover.

 

[orangefog]

Is the fear that Michigan State comes calling for Bullough?
Oops, wrong thread

 

[baggerbob]

Average at best? Guess I don't understand "average". West is 5th in SU history for receptions and finished 7th in receiving yards... ahead of Art Monk, Quinton Spotwood, and Rob Carpenter.

PTG avg 4.8 rushing yards per carry this season and 5.1 yards for his career. Do you have stats supporting that his 1st down carries resulted in 2nd and long situations? Even his receiving yards per play is 5.1 and that's in an offense that throws screens behind the LOS with 1 blocker and 3 defenders.

West scored 4 receiving TD's in his career, and only 2 the year Ryan threw for 26. PTG had 2 100 yard games in the first 3, and 251 yards on 32 carries for 7.8 yards per carry, the last 9 games he had 356 yards on 95 carries for 3.7 so yes he had a bad year. Lemon and Sales not only caught passes, but managed to score, Ish had 3 TD's in his first year on half the catches of west who had no TD's. The other people you mentioned Monk, Spotwood, Carpenter, also managed to score TD's and points is what its all about, not yards between the 20.

 

[PhatOrange]

The RB Strickland I think is good enough to start next season.

WR i don't know if it's that scary just yet. Lewis, Ishmael, Broyld, estime, avant, Cornelius, funderburke, and the wild cards Custis and Enoicy. Did I forget anyone?

 

[SWC75]

I think that as long as we can continue to bring in well-rated recruiting classes the overall talent level on the quad will increase and a break through, (of sorts: don't expect 12-0), is inevitable. This season hurt us because we looked bad and because all the resulting grumbling creates rumors that we are about to change the coaching staff again and that kills recruiting. I suspect the impact will not be on this class, from which they'd already had verbal commitments before things went sour, but on the next one and the one after that. That's why it's critical to at least get the train back on the tracks next year by at least breaking even and getting back to a bowl so 2014 seems like an anomaly.

I think we'll have good running backs next year. I like Phillips and McFarlane. I would like to see more form Morris. But, even more than the quarterbacks, you can't judge the running backs in a year when the line was shredded. It also didn't help that we began the season running bubble screens. People ragged on Gulley throughout his carrer but he wound up having a good one and now people are moaning that we can't replace him. I think Phillips and McFarlane, at least, will turn out tob e just as good.

 

[qdawgg]

You should look at how often we threw in the years those guys played vs. today.

Context matters.

I don't disagree

 

[qdawgg]

West scored 4 receiving TD's in his career, and only 2 the year Ryan threw for 26. PTG had 2 100 yard games in the first 3, and 251 yards on 32 carries for 7.8 yards per carry, the last 9 games he had 356 yards on 95 carries for 3.7 so yes he had a bad year. Lemon and Sales not only caught passes, but managed to score, Ish had 3 TD's in his first year on half the catches of west who had no TD's. The other people you mentioned Monk, Spotwood, Carpenter, also managed to score TD's and points is what its all about, not yards between the 20.

You're actually helping my argument. So if these two were two of our best offensive options. Why are we just assuming the offense will all of a sudden improve considerably next year?

We do this every year, including the start of this last year. Just because they had certain stats in HS, looked good in spring practice, or are over a certain weight/height we automatically increase offensive production for the next year. As we showed with our offense last year, cosching Is just as important or more, than talent. There are a lot more teams ahead of us in offensive production with significantly less talent.

We arent just going to have a better offense next year just because.

 

[Orijinal]

We do this every year. As we showed with our offense last year, cosching Is just as important or more, than talent. There are a lot more teams ahead of us in offensive production with significantly less talent.

We arent just going to have a better offense next year just because.

This is the bottom line and something I can't agree any more with or underscore even more. All this talk about running backs, quarterbacks, and wide receivers, tight ends, linemen doesn't make a dang bit of difference if your o line play sucks.

Enough of this about not being healthy enough. Syracuse had a full complement of offensive linemen for the last 2 games of the season and you know what? The offense actually regressed. 128 yards against BC?! Come on with that crap.

No running back is going to run for 100 yards if a defensive lineman is on top of them at the line of scrimmage on EVERY FREAKING FIRST DOWN. That is not lack of running back talent or offensive talent. That is coaching. Plain and simple.

Gotta get this right in the off-season or Shafer and staff will be gone. And I don't want to see that happen.

 

[RMH44]

This is the bottom line and something I can't agree any more with or underscore even more. All this talk about running backs, quarterbacks, and wide receivers, tight ends, linemen doesn't make a dang bit of difference if your o line is not nasty enough.

Enough of this about not being healthy enough. Syracuse had a full complement of offensive linemen for the last 2 games of the season and you know what? The offense actually regressed. 128 yards against BC?! Come on with that crap.

No running back is going to run for 100 yards if a defensive lineman is on top of them at the line of scrimmage on EVERY FREAKING FIRST DOWN. That is not lack of running back talent or offensive talent. That is coaching. Plain and simple.

Gotta get this right in the off-season or Shafer and staff will be gone. And I don't want to see that happen.

Every OLman was playing hurt by the end of the year. The worst part about is that, apparently, having them play at 75% was our best option. That doesn't say much about what we have behind them.

 

[TheCusian]

You're actually helping my argument. So if these two were two of our best offensive options. Why are we just assuming the offense will all of a sudden improve considerably next year? We do this every year, including the start of this last year. Just because they had certain stats in HS, looked good in spring practice, or are over a certain weight/height we automatically increase offensive production for the next year. As we showed with our offense last year, cosching Is just as important or more, than talent. There are a lot more teams ahead of us in offensive production with significantly less talent. We arent just going to have a better offense next year just because.

We assume that the returnees will get better because that's what generally happens when you work hard at getting better.

 

[OrangePA]

He recruiting has been stronger than I would think.

It has me encouraged.

ACC and IPF.

It's pretty simple.

 

[Crusty]

ACC and IPF.

It's pretty simple.

Those two things are certainly major factors, but almost every recruit mentions the "family atmosphere". I think the staff deserves a fair share of the credit and HCSS in particular for setting the tone.

 

[qdawgg]

We assume that the returnees will get better because that's what generally happens when you work hard at getting better.

You're making my point then. That didn't happen, even with what was assumed to be good returning OL, WR's, experienced QB, and a plethora of RB talent. With all that we ended up almost last in offensive efficiency. ALMOST LAST!!!!!

So why are we just assuming we are better next year? Based on what measurable standards compared to same measurable standards we would have used going in to last years season... Where we were supposed to be better and were one of the worst offenses in CFB.

 

[TheCusian]

You're making my point then. That didn't happen, even with what was assumed to be good returning OL, WR's, experienced QB, and a plethora of RB talent. With all that we ended up almost last in offensive efficiency. ALMOST LAST!!!!! So why are we just assuming we are better next year? Based on what measurable standards compared to same measurable standards we would have used going in to last years season... Where we were supposed to be better and were one of the worst offenses in CFB.

Let me help you.

1. A fan believes their team will get better every year.

2. Most players improve year to year. Last year, on the offensive side of the ball - bad system, injuries, playcalling - trumped any noticeable improvement. That doesn't mean some players improved and it didn't overcome the issues.

3. We have proof in near all sports that the more practice and game time a player sees, the more they improve. It's not a radical statement.

4. Will that growth trump the system/talent/playcalling this year? We will find out.

 

[baggerbob]

You're making my point then. That didn't happen, even with what was assumed to be good returning OL, WR's, experienced QB, and a plethora of RB talent. With all that we ended up almost last in offensive efficiency. ALMOST LAST!!!!!

So why are we just assuming we are better next year? Based on what measurable standards compared to same measurable standards we would have used going in to last years season... Where we were supposed to be better and were one of the worst offenses in CFB.

Because the best 2 receivers Ashton, Brisly were hurt this year, and the staff made the same mistake that Doug did in 2011, and tried to make a change of pace back, an every down back. In 2011 Bailey became the regular back after Carter graduated, and we had our 5 game season end meltdown. This year PTG became the regular back after Smith graduated, and again we had a 5 game meltdown. We should have gone with either Morris, or McFarland. PTG always was a very good change of pace back, just as Bailey was, but not good for the long haul, he wore down.

 

[anomander]

You're making my point then. That didn't happen, even with what was assumed to be good returning OL, WR's, experienced QB, and a plethora of RB talent. With all that we ended up almost last in offensive efficiency. ALMOST LAST!!!!!

So why are we just assuming we are better next year? Based on what measurable standards compared to same measurable standards we would have used going in to last years season... Where we were supposed to be better and were one of the worst offenses in CFB.

This is also a concern of mine. As a program in order to be successful we are going to have to rely on player development. Schools like Wisconsin, Kansas St, TCU, Michigan St are perfect example of programs that don't necessarily bring in elite talent, but their player development is better then most. This is one of, if not the most important thing I want to see from Shafer, and from what I saw this year had me concerned. I'm not going to write him off yet, but I think people have a right to be a bit worried.

Lets take a look. Now that Shafer has been here for 2 years who can we say has made the expected progress from their Freshman/Sophomore years? On offense I guess you can say Ben Lewis, but then who?

You can actually say we saw some regression from some players/units. What happened to our offensive line should be an eye opener. This was a very experienced unit, who was very successful in the past. The 2 seasons before they were arguably the strength of the team. This year it was an implosion. Sure there were injuries, but even when healthy (Nova) they didn't look all that good. And that was with Hickey, Trudo, Foy who played together for 3 years, and Robinson 2. Who out of that group has made considerable progress?

Hunt was supposed to have a "breakout year", but he actually regressed. We have been hearing about the talent of George Morris and Devanate McFarnle, but more regression. West had a solid year, but he topped out as a Sophomore. I was expecting a big year from Parris, but he did next to nothing. Estime was injured a lot so I won't touch on him, and I don't even feel like piling on Ashton.

Looking to the defensive side you can say Eric Crume would be the best example of player development. He has got significantly better throughout his career. Cam Lynch is another good example of someone who got progressively better throughout his career. But for every Crume and Lynch you have guys like Dyshawn Davis, Durrell Eskridge, Julian Whigham, and Wayne Morgan who remained constant throughout their careers.

Gross, or whoever the AD may be next year needs to take a hard look at Shafer and his staff. I don't think it should be enough to get to a certain amount of wins and your job is safe. I want to see how we get to those wins. Are our players improving? Do we have redshirt Sophomores, and Juniors improving to be a productive player on the team. We didn't see the needed development this year. People want to blame Marrone for not recruiting enough talent. Well he produced with some of the guys that were still playing this year. Maybe people should start to question the player development under Shafer. That was just as much of a reason for our 3 win season then the injuries were.

 

[Crusty]

You are using Davis and Esk as examples of players who did not improve during their careers? Both could wind up in the league.

Davis was apparently playing hurt a great deal of the time this year and he closed out his career in very strong fashion.

As for your your main point, I agree that programs like TCU have been great at player development, but I should think it is far easier to develop 3 star talent than it is to develop 2 star talent. Davis was a 2 star in HS and then a 3 star at Milford. Crume, Cornelius, Lewis, Kelly were all 2 stars.

Just as important, if not more so, is player evaluation. The jury is still out but it will return this year. I think the verdict will be favorable. We'll see.

 

[PhatOrange]

not to mention Reddish, Welsh, Robinson and Thompson have all improved over their careers. Offense is still TBD.

 

[Finwad32]

You are using Davis and Esk as examples of players who did not improve during their careers? Both could wind up in the league.

Davis was apparently playing hurt a great deal of the time this year and he closed out his career in very strong fashion.

As for your your main point, I agree that programs like TCU have been great at player development, but I should think it is far easier to develop 3 star talent than it is to develop 2 star talent. Davis was a 2 star in HS and then a 3 star at Milford. Crume, Cornelius, Lewis, Kelly were all 2 stars.

Just as important, if not more so, is player evaluation. The jury is still out but it will return this year. I think the verdict will be favorable. We'll see.

To dove tail, Eskridge improved tremendously as far as the mental aspect of the game goes. I firmly believe his best days are still in front of him.