For a team that finished 3-9...

[anomander]

You are using Davis and Esk as examples of players who did not improve during their careers? Both could wind up in the league.

Davis was apparently playing hurt a great deal of the time this year and he closed out his career in very strong fashion.

As for your your main point, I agree that programs like TCU have been great at player development, but I should think it is far easier to develop 3 star talent than it is to develop 2 star talent. Davis was a 2 star in HS and then a 3 star at Milford. Crume, Cornelius, Lewis, Kelly were all 2 stars.

Just as important, if not more so, is player evaluation. The jury is still out but it will return this year. I think the verdict will be favorable. We'll see.

Dyshawn Davis was very good as a true Freshman. Can you honestly say you were happy with his overall career? He was oozing potential as a Freshman, and definitely had a solid career, but imo he didn't nearly tap into all of his potential. Not saying that is entirely on the staff, but it goes to my point. He will go to the league, but that's on talent alone.

Eskridge did improve since he came up here, but he took a step back this season. Sure there are rumors he was playing hurt, but results are results. He is another one oozing with potential, who you feel we just didn't get enough out of his enormous talent.

Welsh and Robinson are blah to me. I'm not a fan of either one. For the amount of snaps they have seen throughout their career their production isn't anything special.

Reddish had a great career, but he was very good as a Sophomore. For a 3 star kid he would fall into the success category.

Ron Thompson was a 4 star talent, and was used terribly this year. He was heads and shoulders the best DE on the team, but didn't get the snaps that Welsh and Robinson did for some weird reason.

 

[anomander]

The point is with the talent we are going to bring in we can't afford to be just OK in terms of player development. We have to be elite if we want to be a successful ACC program. For all the Marrone haters that want to say he won because of guys like Sales, Lemon, Nassib, Pugh, Bromley, etc. well you have to look at who made those guys into the players that they turned out to be. Sure they are talented, but those are all 2 star kids that Marrone and his staff turned into all league players, and NFL draft picks. In Shafer's first 2 years we haven't seen anywhere near that development. A lot of this has to do with choosing a staff. Marrone got some of the best he could find. The hiring of buddies isn't really a good start.

 

[TheCusian]

Dyshawn Davis was very good as a true Freshman. Can you honestly say you were happy with his overall career? He was oozing potential as a Freshman, and definitely had a solid career, but imo he didn't nearly tap into all of his potential. Not saying that is entirely on the staff, but it goes to my point. He will go to the league, but that's on talent alone. Eskridge did improve since he came up here, but he took a step back this season. Sure there are rumors he was playing hurt, but results are results. He is another one oozing with potential, who you feel we just didn't get enough out of his enormous talent. Welsh and Robinson are blah to me. I'm not a fan of either one. For the amount of snaps they have seen throughout their career their production isn't anything special. Reddish had a great career, but he was very good as a Sophomore. For a 3 star kid he would fall into the success category. Ron Thompson was a 4 star talent, and was used terribly this year. He was heads and shoulders the best DE on the team, but didn't get the snaps that Welsh and Robinson did for some weird reason.

I'd agree with you if the DT position wasn't so thin and then injured...

Welsh/Robinson both were very consistent and fundamentally sound. The staff must have thought/preferred pressure up the middle with consistent contain on the outside. A lot of the time pressure up the middle is more disruptive to both run/pass.

I though Welsh made the most of his talent and made some great plays this season.

All of that being said: I can't wait to see consistent snaps at DE for Thompson and Zeke.

 

[Crusty]

The point is with the talent we are going to bring in we can't afford to be just OK in terms of player development. We have to be elite if we want to be a successful ACC program. For all the Marrone haters that want to say he won because of guys like Sales, Lemon, Nassib, Pugh, Bromley, etc. well you have to look at who made those guys into the players that they turned out to be. Sure they are talented, but those are all 2 star kids that Marrone and his staff turned into all league players, and NFL draft picks. In Shafer's first 2 years we haven't seen anywhere near that development. A lot of this has to do with choosing a staff. Marrone got some of the best he could find. The hiring of buddies isn't really a good start.

I think it is obvious that average talent with average development creates an average team.

I am not a Marrone hater by any means, but we will never know what he would or would not have accomplished. The facts are that he had a .500 record and .392 in conference play - and that was the Big East. So, he really didn't "win". It took DM longer than two years to develop the players you mentioned.

We won in 2010 because we had the 7th ranked defense in the nation, which was Shafer's doing not Marrone's. Shafer's development of the defense during those years was every bit as good as the offense, if not greater.

As for coaches, Saint Doug hired his friend's son as OC.

I thought Saint Doug was a good coach and am grateful for what he did, but it is important not to overstate his achievements. We can only speculate on what he might have done had he stayed.

 

[anomander]

I think it is obvious that average talent with average development creates an average team.

I am not a Marrone hater by any means, but we will never know what he would or would not have accomplished. The facts are that he had a .500 record and .392 in conference play - and that was the Big East. So, he really didn't "win". It took DM longer than two years to develop the players you mentioned.

We won in 2010 because we had the 7th ranked defense in the nation, which was Shafer's doing not Marrone's. Shafer's development of the defense during those years was every bit as good as the offense, if not greater.

As for coaches, Saint Doug hired his friend's son as OC.

I thought Saint Doug was a good coach and am grateful for what he did, but it is important not to overstate his achievements. We can only speculate on what he might have done had he stayed.

You don't have to speculate on Nassib, Pugh, Sales, Lemon, or Bromley. Then there are guys like Provo, Smith, Shamarko, and Chan Jones. Sure Marrone was just .500, but he took over a bottom of the barrel program. Anyways this isn't supposed to be a Marrone vs Shafer thing. I was just pointing out examples of what Marrone and his staff were able to with 2 and 3 star talent. If Shafer is going to be successful we need to see player development. You are right 2 years isn't nearly enough to see what he can do with the guys he brought in, but so far the development of the kids who started the year before he took over isn't looking all that great. A lot of this falls to the individual position coach, but ultimately it's the HC who it comes back to. This shows just how big of a risk it was hiring your buddies.

 

[RF2044]

I think it is obvious that average talent with average development creates an average team.

I am not a Marrone hater by any means, but we will never know what he would or would not have accomplished. The facts are that he had a .500 record and .392 in conference play - and that was the Big East. So, he really didn't "win". It took DM longer than two years to develop the players you mentioned.

We won in 2010 because we had the 7th ranked defense in the nation, which was Shafer's doing not Marrone's. Shafer's development of the defense during those years was every bit as good as the offense, if not greater.

As for coaches, Saint Doug hired his friend's son as OC.

I thought Saint Doug was a good coach and am grateful for what he did, but it is important not to overstate his achievements. We can only speculate on what he might have done had he stayed.

This post ^^^^^ shows a significant lack of contextual perspective.

 

[anomander]

This post ^^^^^ shows a significant lack of contextual perspective.

Seriously? What exactly is out of context?

 

[RF2044]

Seriously? What exactly is out of context?

Yeah, seriously. Marrone's record, sans context, is only slightly above .500.

Considering the context of him taking over literally the WORST BCS conference program in college football, and getting them to a bowl in year 2, two bowls in four years, and nearly a third in between -- that's a different spin on the same data. He took the worst major conference team in college football and immediately made them more competitive. I'm not suggesting that he was dynamic, nor that his record was superlative, but only looking at the win percentage alone after a short stint when he made the team exponentially more competitive as the sole benchmark criteria lacks perspective.

It isn't like Marrone took over a reasonable program in a reasonable state of operation and went .5oo. Anyone pretending that is being intellectually dishonest.

For him to be above .500 given what he took over is highly impressive, even though his record is not. But to consider only the record in a vacuum sans context doesn't tell the entire story.

 

[anomander]

Yeah, seriously. Marrone's record, sans context, is only slightly above .500.

Considering the context of him taking over literally the WORST BCS conference program in college football, and getting them to a bowl in year 2 -- that's a different spin on the same data.

It isn't like Marrone took over a reasonable program in a reasonable state of operation and went .5oo. Anyone pretending that is being intellectually dishonest.

For him to be above .500 given what he took over is highly impressive, even though his record is not. But to consider only the record in a vacuum sans context doesn't tell the entire story.

I think we're actually on the same page. I might have confused your original quote.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

Not trying to nitpick, but I have no idea why we didn't target a WR this cycle? We can't feel confident with what we are returning can we? Let's recap who we are losing:

Jarrod West - Best receiver
Kobena
Hale
Flemming
KJ
Cooper

Those were all wide receivers who we thought were going to be on the 2014 roster.

Then you have Custis, and Enoicy, who some have pegged for TE. I know Custis was taking reps with the TE's the 2nd part of the season. I don't know why they would move a true Freshman to TE (while Lester was OC) if they didn't plan on using him there in 2015. Enoicy is a big man, but I am guessing he will be at WR.

Anyways that's 7 receivers we aren't going to have next year that we planned on having this past season. It's not like the guys we had were setting the world on fire either. Broyld, Estime, and even Lewis to an extent have proved to be injury risks throughout their careers. I guess Lester's offense won't call for as many 4 receiver sets so not as many are needed, but I still think we are cutting ourselves short. I am all for less subbing, and playing the best wr's the majority of the snaps so hopefully we go that route. Ish needs to be on the field for as many snaps as he can handle, but after him, Estime, Broyld, Lewis, and possibly Enoicy who else is there? I thought Erv would have been a perfect fit for the slot position in McDonald's offense, but it doesn't look like he would fit into Lester's as a WR.

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing the fact that none of those guys, save West, ever contributed anything on the field. West disappointed so much in 2013 when he was expected to step up. I'm glad I had to own up to underestimating West this year and I was glad to have him, but in the grand scheme of life, I believe a healthy Estime or a healthy Broyld would have both been more productive than West. Of course, if we don't fix the offensive game plan, scheme, play calling, and substitution issues, it won't matter. But losing that bunch of smash won't leave us less well off.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

Average at best? Guess I don't understand "average". West is 5th in SU history for receptions and finished 7th in receiving yards... ahead of Art Monk, Quinton Spotwood, and Rob Carpenter.
QUOTE]

I'm absolutely stunned, but you are right. I think that shows that SU has absolutely sucked other than 2012 over the entire current offense dominated era in NCAA football. Get ready for both career receptions and receiving yards to be shattered with this group. Estime and Ish will both be ahead of West in both categories in the next two years.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

I still think all the "GM's scheme is what killed the offense" talk is way off the mark. Execution, timing, passing accuracy, route running, pass blocking, marginal talent, play calling/inability to score in red zone, game planning, and injuries had a MUCH GREATER impact on the O's inability to score points than the scheme. GM and "his offense" have become the scapegoat poster child for all that went wrong.

Taking the OC away from GM did not, and will not, make all the above issues disappear. There are multiple reasons why we are only 1 of 2 P5 teams that have not been ranked in this era.

Can't it be both GM's scheme, horrible game prep, horrible game day coaching, horrible play calling, horrible substitution patters plus execution, timing (? what is this), passing accuracy, route running, pass blocking, marginal talent, and injuries? GM was responsible for all of the first 5 issues, not just scheme. But ultimately, it was both sets of issues, almost all of which fall back on these offensive coaches. Yes, injuries were ridiculous this year and more than almost any other team had to bear. However, these coaches flat out were horrible and were responsible for all of the issues save injuries.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

You're actually helping my argument. So if these two were two of our best offensive options. Why are we just assuming the offense will all of a sudden improve considerably next year?

We do this every year, including the start of this last year. Just because they had certain stats in HS, looked good in spring practice, or are over a certain weight/height we automatically increase offensive production for the next year. As we showed with our offense last year, cosching Is just as important or more, than talent. There are a lot more teams ahead of us in offensive production with significantly less talent.

We arent just going to have a better offense next year just because.

The only way we don't increase offensive production next year is if we only field 4 players on offense. We literally couldn't do anything worse. However, also just not having as many injuries next year would make this offense significantly better. So yeah, just because its a new year, we will be much better on offense. And this is coming from someone who has absolutely no faith and a healthy distain for our entire offensive coaching staff. I'm disgusted by them and the fact that the administration hasn't yet canned all of them. I hope we get rid of several of them and upgrade right after NLI day. But even with this same staff, we will be much better next year even while losing a great LT on the oline who should've benefited much more and looked much better with this year in college. The loss of Perles was huge. The addition of Joe Adam was just as huge a negative. Put both together and Hickey regressed, injuries, scrapes and pains or not.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

This is also a concern of mine. As a program in order to be successful we are going to have to rely on player development. Schools like Wisconsin, Kansas St, TCU, Michigan St are perfect example of programs that don't necessarily bring in elite talent, but their player development is better then most. This is one of, if not the most important thing I want to see from Shafer, and from what I saw this year had me concerned. I'm not going to write him off yet, but I think people have a right to be a bit worried.

Lets take a look. Now that Shafer has been here for 2 years who can we say has made the expected progress from their Freshman/Sophomore years? On offense I guess you can say Ben Lewis, but then who?

You can actually say we saw some regression from some players/units. What happened to our offensive line should be an eye opener. This was a very experienced unit, who was very successful in the past. The 2 seasons before they were arguably the strength of the team. This year it was an implosion. Sure there were injuries, but even when healthy (Nova) they didn't look all that good. And that was with Hickey, Trudo, Foy who played together for 3 years, and Robinson 2. Who out of that group has made considerable progress?

Hunt was supposed to have a "breakout year", but he actually regressed. We have been hearing about the talent of George Morris and Devanate McFarnle, but more regression. West had a solid year, but he topped out as a Sophomore. I was expecting a big year from Parris, but he did next to nothing. Estime was injured a lot so I won't touch on him, and I don't even feel like piling on Ashton.

Looking to the defensive side you can say Eric Crume would be the best example of player development. He has got significantly better throughout his career. Cam Lynch is another good example of someone who got progressively better throughout his career. But for every Crume and Lynch you have guys like Dyshawn Davis, Durrell Eskridge, Julian Whigham, and Wayne Morgan who remained constant throughout their careers.

Gross, or whoever the AD may be next year needs to take a hard look at Shafer and his staff. I don't think it should be enough to get to a certain amount of wins and your job is safe. I want to see how we get to those wins. Are our players improving? Do we have redshirt Sophomores, and Juniors improving to be a productive player on the team. We didn't see the needed development this year. People want to blame Marrone for not recruiting enough talent. Well he produced with some of the guys that were still playing this year. Maybe people should start to question the player development under Shafer. That was just as much of a reason for our 3 win season then the injuries were.

Agree 100%

 

[Crusty]

Yeah, seriously. Marrone's record, sans context, is only slightly above .500.

Considering the context of him taking over literally the WORST BCS conference program in college football, and getting them to a bowl in year 2, two bowls in four years, and nearly a third in between -- that's a different spin on the same data. He took the worst major conference team in college football and immediately made them more competitive. I'm not suggesting that he was dynamic, nor that his record was superlative, but only looking at the win percentage alone after a short stint when he made the team exponentially more competitive as the sole benchmark criteria lacks perspective.

It isn't like Marrone took over a reasonable program in a reasonable state of operation and went .5oo. Anyone pretending that is being intellectually dishonest.

For him to be above .500 given what he took over is highly impressive, even though his record is not. But to consider only the record in a vacuum sans context doesn't tell the entire story.

The post to which I was replying dealt with talent development, which stated DM was able to win with 2 and 3 star recruits. I was merely pointing out that we didn't win in conference play in the weakest of the AQ conferences and in fact were .500 overall during his tenure (He was .500 not over .500 and in league play he was under .400). I am not trying to knock DM. I thought he was going to do great things at SU but he left and we will never know. However, I don't think what he did makes him Saint Doug either.

In my post I said, "I thought Saint Doug was a good coach and am grateful for what he did..." What he did was bring a program at the bottom of D1 to a bit below average. BTW, going to a bowl makes a team average these days - it simply means the team was at least .500.

With respect to development, Spruill, Jones, Bromley, Thomas and Anderson all made it to the NFL and they were developed under Shafer as much as Marrone. I would also argue that our defense has been consistently better than our offense since 2009.

The bottom line is we simply don't know how good this staff will be in terms of developing players, but I think there is as much evidence with defensive players as the offensive names quoted as Marrone’s achievements to suggest that Shafer can develop players as well as Marrone. That is all I was saying.

 

[anomander]

The post to which I was replying dealt with talent development, which stated DM was able to win with 2 and 3 star recruits. I was merely pointing out that we didn't win in conference play in the weakest of the AQ conferences and in fact were .500 overall during his tenure (He was .500 not over .500 and in league play he was under .400). I am not trying to knock DM. I thought he was going to do great things at SU but he left and we will never know. However, I don't think what he did makes him Saint Doug either.

In my post I said, "I thought Saint Doug was a good coach and am grateful for what he did..." What he did was bring a program at the bottom of D1 to a bit below average. BTW, going to a bowl makes a team average these days - it simply means the team was at least .500.

With respect to development, Spruill, Jones, Bromley, Thomas and Anderson all made it to the NFL and they were developed under Shafer as much as Marrone. I would also argue that our defense has been consistently better than our offense since 2009.

The bottom line is we simply don't know how good this staff will be in terms of developing players, but I think there is as much evidence with defensive players as the offensive names quoted as Marrone’s achievements to suggest that Shafer can develop players as well as Marrone. That is all I was saying.

I think it's more likely to credit the development of those guys to the position coaches. It's no coincidence that Jones and Bromley spent their whole career learning from Daoust, who many would agree is our best position coach. As for Spruill, his best season arguably could have been his Freshman year. My point is being able to chose a staff that can not only recruit, but develop talent is one of Shafer's biggest responsibilities. I again look at what happened to our offensive line. Adam should be held responsible for a unit that has proven in the past it could be a successful group.

 

[Alsacs]

Marrone>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Scott Shafer at maximizing the talent/game prepartion for the level of talent he had on his roster.

Scott Shafer> Doug Marrone at recruiting, but I don't know if that is because SS is any good or playing in the ACC and with IPF being built has helped.


We are stuck with Scott Shafer I get that, but as long as the HC I expect we are going to be mediocre and need our defense to overachieve in an ERA of college football where offenses have the advantage and we play our home games in a freaking Dome.

 

[SoBristol]

...My point is being able to chose a staff that can not only recruit, but develop talent is one of Shafer's biggest responsibilities. I again look at what happened to our offensive line. Adam should be held responsible for a unit that has proven in the past it could be a successful group.

When was this OL that successful? In 2012, when we had Pugh paired with Hickey at OT? In 2013, when we had Macky at C, with Foy at OT, the line was intact from Spring practice through the entire season, and Jerome Smith and Hunt were providing extra yards after contact? Hard to make apples to apples comparisons about "the unit".

And to add to that, Adam needed to replace a 3 year starter at C, with a senior who had never played much; Foy missed Spring practice due to suspension, and Robinson also missed Spring practice due to injury.

And what about the rest of the offense? The TEs, the RBs, the back-up QBs, the WRs other than West (who was already good) and Ishmael (natural talent, star recruit). Ben Lewis did fine with his opportunities. I think, bottom line, you are being a tad harsh with Joe Adam, in his first year in the program.

 

[anomander]

When was this OL that successful? In 2012, when we had Pugh paired with Hickey at OT? In 2013, when we had Macky at C, with Foy at OT, the line intact was intact for the entire season, and Jerome Smith and Hunt were providing extra yards after contact? Hard to make apples to apples comparisons.

I agree the staff needs to develop talent, but it seems too harsh to come down so hard on one new position coach. The RBs did not develop this season; the back-up QBs were sketchy; West and Ishmael were fine, but was that development or natural ability; and the TEs rarely contributed. Lots of targets for blame, if that is what you like to do.

I love Mackey as much as the next guy, but i'm sorry his loss shouldn't mean an absolute collapse of the offensive line. Plus I thought everyone was high on Miller? I think the comparison is very fair, considering you have a future NFL OT in Hickey, 3 year starters in Foy and Trudo, as well as Robinson who was in his 2nd year starting. Injuries played a part, but even when it was fully intact it struggled.

I did say above that the development of Morris, and to an extent McFarlane have been a bit of a disappoint. Same with Wilson and Kimble, although they are still considered young. The reason I came down hard on the OL is because they have the experience, and proved to be a successful unit in the past.

 

[Crusty]

I think it's more likely to credit the development of those guys to the position coaches. It's no coincidence that Jones and Bromley spent their whole career learning from Daoust, who many would agree is our best position coach. As for Spruill, his best season arguably could have been his Freshman year. My point is being able to chose a staff that can not only recruit, but develop talent is one of Shafer's biggest responsibilities. I again look at what happened to our offensive line. Adam should be held responsible for a unit that has proven in the past it could be a successful group.

And Marrone would be responsible for the collapse of 2011?

 

[RF2044]

I love Mackey as much as the next guy, but i'm sorry his loss shouldn't mean an absolute collapse of the offensive line. Plus I thought everyone was high on Miller? I think the comparison is very fair, considering you have a future NFL OT in Hickey, 3 year starters in Foy and Trudo, as well as Robinson who was in his 2nd year starting. Injuries played a part, but even when it was fully intact it struggled.

I did say above that the development of Morris, and to an extent McFarlane have been a bit of a disappoint. Same with Wilson and Kimble, although they are still considered young. The reason I came down hard on the OL is because they have the experience, and proved to be a successful unit in the past.

Injuries did MORE than merely play a part--we had significant game losses due to injury for several key contributors on the OL.

Foy was injured for at least 1/3 of the year, and missed that many games.
Robinsion was injured for at least 1/3 of the year, and missed that many games.
Miller missed time at the end of the season, at least two games.
Palmer--and emergency starter--got injured and missed some time.
Trudo and Hickey--our stalwarts--were both banged up, and had to play through injuries that impairied their play.

The fact of the matter is that our OL was decimated by injuries this year. The decline in unit performance is attributable to that more than any other factor.

 

[anomander]

And Marrone would be responsible for the collapse of 2011?

I don't get what that has to do with the post you quoted? The 2011 team was still super thin since it was only 2 recruiting classes after the Robinson disaster. At least he proved earlier in that season what that team could have done if it stayed healthy. This year we saw no such evidence. We were bad from the gate even before the injury bug bit us. I think it's a bit of a difference.

 

[anomander]

Injuries did MORE than merely play a part--we had significant game losses due to injury for several key contributors on the OL.

Foy was injured for at least 3/4 of the year, and missed that many games.
Robinsion was injured for at least 3/4 of the year, and missed that many games.
Miller missed time at the end of the season, at least two games.
Palmer--and emergency starter--got injured and missed some time.
Trudo and Hickey--our stalwarts--were both banged up, and had to play through injuries that impairied their play.

The fact of the matter is that our OL was decimated by injuries this year. The decline in unit performance is attributable to that more than any other factor.

Then explain Villanova, Pitt, and BC. We had absolutely no excuse not to manhandle a group we had out weighed by close to 50lbs per man.

 

[SoBristol]

I love Mackey as much as the next guy, but i'm sorry his loss shouldn't mean an absolute collapse of the offensive line. Plus I thought everyone was high on Miller? I think the comparison is very fair, considering you have a future NFL OT in Hickey, 3 year starters in Foy and Trudo, as well as Robinson who was in his 2nd year starting. Injuries played a part, but even when it was fully intact it struggled.

I did say above that the development of Morris, and to an extent McFarlane have been a bit of a disappoint. Same with Wilson and Kimble, although they are still considered young. The reason I came down hard on the OL is because they have the experience, and proved to be a successful unit in the past.

Before I saw this, I made some edits in the message to which you responded. What do you make of the fact that Foy missed all of Spring Practice as did Robinson? It was not the same situation in 2014 for Joe Adam as in 2013 when Perles had his OL intact from the beginning of Spring Practice to the end of the season. So, Joe Adam in the Spring had only Hickey and Trudo from the "successful unit in the past" then, in August, he was bringing the band back together, with Miller at C, and in September the injuries started. I don't know -- seems like a different situation.

 

[anomander]

Before I saw this, I made some edits in the message to which you responded. What do you make of the fact that Foy missed all of Spring Practice as did Robinson? It was not the same situation in 2014 for Joe Adam as in 2013 when Perles had his OL intact from the beginning of Spring Practice to the end of the season. So, Joe Adam in the Spring had only Hickey and Trudo from the "successful unit in the past" then, in August, he was bringing the band back together, with Miller at C, and in September the injuries started. I don't know -- seems like a different situation.

That's Spring practice. They had a whole Fall camp together. I think that's really stretching it in order to give him a pass.