Forfeit

[kd bart]

I'll consider giving Toledo the win right after the Soviets/Russians hand over their 1972 Olympic Gold Medals for Men's Basketball to the Americans.

 

[orange03]

Lol. Dude I get it. Are you also getting our point?

It doesn't matter. Toledo got jobbed, it's that simple. I don't think anything should be done about it. I'm not arguing that we really lost the game or it should be played over or whatever. Unfortunately for Toledo it's a bad situation that has no chance to be fixed.

I just imagine the uproar in here if it were the other way around...

 

[SUalldway]

Forget all other considerations and nuances - do you believe the win should be vacated?

That a stupid question!

 

[CusefanATL]

I'll consider vacating this win when the Tenn vacates their win in '98.

I'm sorry, but a missed XP which from 1 angle looks to be good and from the other not good isnt as bad as calling the only 2 personal fouls in the history of football for having the knee pads too high in the same game! Not to mention the flag that the ref pulled out of his pocket 5 seconds after he realized the game was over on an incomplete pass.

 

[Moontan]

I just imagine the uproar in here if it were the other way around...

Yes, we are quite aware... see Syracuse's last basketball.

 

[CJSyr]

I never said it did. All I'm saying is the only thing we can argue about is what really did happen. Toledo went down the field and kicked a field goal that should've made the score 30-29. That's it! Who knows what would've happened after? Nobody- so how can you argue it?

I really don't understand people who make this argument. What they DID is entirely dependent upon what Syracuse DID or DIDN'T do. You change ANY variable and the outcome could be entirely different.

Up 2, Syracuse would play tighter defense...probably take some risks...put more pressure on the quarterback...any number of things. To suggest that Toledo would still have gotten a field goal is as much speculation as anything else anyone has said.

The point you don't seem to realize is that when ANY variable changes, nothing is going to be exactly the same.

We're not talking about "fate" here. We're talking about human choices and will. When one thing changes, it affects almost everything afterwards.

You even said it yourself... "who knows what would've happened after?" Only you choose to give Toledo a field goal when the call in question would have made the score 29-27. Again, using your words: "how can you argue it?"

 

[orange03]

I really don't understand people who make this argument. What they DID is entirely dependent upon what Syracuse DID or DIDN'T do. You change ANY variable and the outcome could be entirely different.

Up 2, Syracuse would play tighter defense...probably take some risks...put more pressure on the quarterback...any number of things. To suggest that Toledo would still have gotten a field goal is as much speculation as anything else anyone has said.

The point you don't seem to realize is that when ANY variable changes, nothing is going to be exactly the same.

We're not talking about "fate" here. We're talking about human choices and will. When one thing changes, it affects almost everything afterwards.

You even said it yourself... "who knows what would've happened after?" Only you choose to give Toledo a field goal when the call in question would have made the score 29-27. Again, using your words: "how can you argue it?"

Your basing your theory on hypotheticals. Tough way to win an argument. Your assuming that just because Syracuse might play differently, that it would ultimately help them. If our pass defense has showed us anything, it's that it isn't all that good. I realize that nothing can and should be done about this, it's just a real unfortunate ending for Toledo. That's all I'm saying. They weren't given the proper CHANCE to win the game in regulation. I know they probably should've went for 6 at the end, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the argument. All we know for sure is what happened, they went down the field and eventually kicked a FG. Can't argue anything else.

 

[Moontan]

All we know for sure is what happened, they went down the field and eventually kicked a FG. Can't argue anything else.

Yup... they went down the field and tied the game. That's all anyone knows.

Toledo couldn't get in the endzone in regulation and turned the ball over in overtime. Syracuse kicks a field goal. Syracuse wins. The end.

 

[rrlbees]

Your basing your theory on hypotheticals. Tough way to win an argument. Your assuming that just because Syracuse might play differently, that it would ultimately help them.

MIGHT ultimately help them. That's the point, nobody knows what would happen IF it was 29-27. It is NOT a fact, and is ALSO a hypothetical, that both teams would have played EXACTLY the same way as they did when Toledo drove for the tying FG.

 

[orange03]

MIGHT ultimately help them. That's the point, nobody knows what would happen IF it was 29-27. It is NOT a fact and is ALSO a hypothetical that both teams would have played EXACTLY the same way as they did when Toledo drove for the tying FG.

Exactly, you can't argue something that might happen. All we can argue about/discuss is what actually did happen. The bottom line is we caught a break and won the game. We made the plays in OT that we had to. I just don't get people who don't think Toledo has a legitimate gripe.

 

[BleedsOrange44]

Your basing your theory on hypotheticals. Tough way to win an argument. Your assuming that just because Syracuse might play differently, that it would ultimately help them. If our pass defense has showed us anything, it's that it isn't all that good. I realize that nothing can and should be done about this, it's just a real unfortunate ending for Toledo. That's all I'm saying. They weren't given the proper CHANCE to win the game in regulation. I know they probably should've went for 6 at the end, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the argument. All we know for sure is what happened, they went down the field and eventually kicked a FG. Can't argue anything else.

You can argue other things because the point is, which you still don't seem to understand, that things WOULD HAVE been different. There are TONS of scenarios that could have happened if it were a 29-27 game vs a 30-27 game. As far as being given a "proper chance" to win. They had the ball inside our 10 with well over a minute left and first down. That's a chance to win. They also had the ball first in overtime, that's a chance to win. They blew it in both of those situations.

The "what-ifs" are not saying they would definitely help SU, but simply saying you can't reverse the outcome of the game because of all of the "what-ifs." And, like I've stated before, if everything happens exactly the same on that last drive, which is what you're suggesting, SU DEFINTELY AND INARGUABLY uses their timeouts to make sure there's time left when Toledo kicks their FG. Then, who knows what happens, but SU has a chance to win there.

So, I don't believe it cost them the "proper chance" to win the game. It's a crappy situation, sure, but there were calls that cost SU points as well that are inarguable.

 

[BleedsOrange44]

Exactly, you can't argue something that might happen. All we can argue about/discuss is what actually did happen. The bottom line is we caught a break and won the game. We made the plays in OT that we had to. I just don't get people who don't think Toledo has a legitimate gripe.

But assuming that things would have happened exactly the same, which is your argument, is a hypothetical. So saying others can't use a hypothetical when you in fact are using a hypothetical is not correct.

I don't think anyone is saying Toledo doesn't have reason to be upset. But simply saying there is no validity to expecting the result to be overturned.

 

[orange03]

I never said the result should be overturned, not once. They were jobbed. Don't see how anyone can argue differently. I have no idea what the outcome would've been if the officials made the correct call on the xp and neither do any of you.

My argument is based on what happened, not what might have. Syracuse isn't at fault here, and we shouldn't be punished. I hope people don't think that's what I'm insinuating. The officials and the old guys in the review booth need to be held accountable.

 

[orangefan13]

Whether Toledo was Jobbed or not.
A) The passing interference in the endzone and the PF+Facemask are equal to the missed extra point
B) The passing interference in the endzone and the PF+Facemask are not equal to the missed extra point.

There is no written rule to decide which is true :noidea:

 

[N.Y. Orangeman]

It has probably already been said, but I'd put Toledo on the unofficial banned list for football and basketball given their AD's actions.

 

[rrlbees]

They were jobbed.

Yes they were. They were jobbed out of 1 point thus the score should have been 29-27 after that instead of 30-27. But EVERYTHING after that is a hypothetical as to what may or may not have happened. Thus they were not jobbed out of the win.

 

[kuethstheman]

Yes. Let's look at what DID happen. What DID happen was Toledo got the ball back, down by three. You keep pushing the hypothetical that the same thing that DID happen WOULD HAVE happened.

That's an incredible stretch. Don't know why you insist on dealing in hypotheticals.

I never said the result should be overturned, not once. They were jobbed. Don't see how anyone can argue differently. I have no idea what the outcome would've been if the officials made the correct call on the xp and neither do any of you.

My argument is based on what happened, not what might have. Syracuse isn't at fault here, and we shouldn't be punished. I hope people don't think that's what I'm insinuating. The officials and the old guys in the review booth need to be held accountable.

 

[kd bart]

Even if it they could take the point off the point at this time, they couldn't declare Toledo the 30-29 victor. They would have to go back and replay the game from the point of the dispute. It would be just like the NHL Goal Replay rule. If there's disputed goal/non-goal situation and play continues on but they go to video replay at the next stoppage. If after the replay, it's determine that it was a goal, anything that might have happened subsequently, a penalty or even a goal, before the stoppage is wiped out and play is reset to the point of the goal scored.

 

[orange03]

Yes they were. They were jobbed out of 1 point thus the score should have been 29-27 after that instead of 30-27. But EVERYTHING after that is a hypothetical as to what may or may not have happened. Thus they were not jobbed out of the win.

They were robbed of the correct chance to win in regulation. Simple as that.

 

[Cusefan95]

They were robbed of the correct chance to win in regulation. Simple as that.

yeah, if they score a TD when they had a first and goal, the game still would have gone to OT. Wait, they would have won in regulation. Simple as that.

 

[orange03]

And that has zero to do with the argument at hand.

 

[orange03]

If making light of the fact we were rewarded a point that eventually came into play makes you all feel better, then by all means make light of it. It doesn't matter. Go Cuse!

 

[Cusefan95]

If making light of the fact we were rewarded a point that eventually came into play makes you all feel better, then by all means make light of it. It doesn't matter. Go Cuse!

It's not about making light of the situation, it's about making fun of your inability to grasp that Syracuse strategy would have been different up 2 versus up 3.

 

[orange03]

Oh I grasp it, I just choose not to take that vantage point. I'm pretty sure our strategy wouldn't make a difference. We couldn't stop the Eastwood Bears from moving the ball up and down the field. It was a BS play that resulted in a point we shouldn't have gotten. Maybe we stop them, maybe we don't. The fact is they weren't given the chance to correctly take the lead or win the game in regulation. Go Cuse!

 

[arbitragegls]

...I cant for the life of me wonder how this thread can keep going...first, it was a bad call; second it was reviewed and not changed; third the game continued and at the end 'Cuse won...unfortunately this is the game of life...in football, baseball, basketball, etc. Wrong calls that may change the game are made and held up after review...how can you go back to that play, reverse it and say the game outcome changes...it cant be changed...if it was, all games would come under a further microscope and this game cannot be the only one changed because of a mistake...politically correct..okay Toledo a mistake was made but you loose sucker.