Francis new podcast

[pearl31]

Pearl, I don't know who you're directing that at--hopefully not me, because I am staunchly pro-JB. But there is DEFINITELY a basis in fact for some of the criticism about recruiting and how it has played out in terms of depth / roster management. Is this even in question?

No, it's not in question. And no, of course it is not remotely directed at you. As stated above, I have criticized JB many times over the years. And I have recently criticized the staff's approach to the '17 class, specifically not having a plan B for Quade. The posters I'm referring to seem to have long ago decided JB is a bum and go far beyond criticism and into ridicule and derision. And now when we're having the season we are they've ratcheted up their drumbeat in virtually every thread.

 

[RF2044]

No, it's not in question. And no, of course it is not remotely directed at you. As stated above, I have criticized JB many times over the years. And I have recently criticized the staff's approach to the '17 class, specifically not having a plan B for Quade. The posters I'm referring to seem to have long ago decided JB is a bum and go far beyond criticism and into ridicule and derision. And now when we're having the season we are they've ratcheted up their drumbeat in virtually every thread.

Gotcha.

 

[Francis03]

I'm not saying anything happened, other than the specific players in question (Morris/Brunson) didn't end up at Syracuse.

The premise that has emerged is that JB/staff essentially tanked this thing either on purpose or out of sheer incompetence. I find that premise, in either of its scenarios (and especially coming from supposed Syracuse fans), to completely misguided and unfortunate.

What is misguided and unfortunate? Both Morris and Brunson came to our Elite Camp on their own dime with the expectations of receiving an offer. Neither ended up getting an offer and we decided to pass on them. You're acting like we were so loaded with guard depth over the years to justify doing so and coming up with these ridiculous scenarios and demands. Like the Tyler Ennis camp was going to be ticked off that we got another guard who was barely ranked in the top 100. Plus that thought doesn't even make sense when considering how hard we were pushing for Rysheed Jordan(another top 25 PG like Ennis) to join that class, but ended up with Ron Patterson instead. RF, explained the Brunson situation in great detail, so no need for me to repeat that. Nobody is saying that the staff is incompetent or tanking on purpose, but as I tried to explain on my latest pod is that they need to be held somewhat accountable for how things have played out with our current roster. Can't blame the sanctions for choices and recruiting decisions that was made years ago. People still wouldn't continue to complain about Tyler Ennis leaving early four recruiting classes later if you had guys like Morris, Brunson, or Newton on this roster.

It's obvious that you're in the camp that the staff can do no wrong and that's your right, but you keep asking questions in which it shouldn't be hard to know the answers of because it's stuff that has been discussed and explained time and time again. You're just not trying to hear any of it and falsely claim people of attacking and disrespecting the staff when we're just trying to keep it real.

 

[20Plus]

Otto's World: Otto's World Podcast Episode 20
New pod. Lots of hot fiyah. I'm sure there will be some one liners that you guys will get a kick out of lol.
View attachment 87541

Great pod and well thought out observations.

 

[Francis03]

Francis -- excellent pod -- a couple quick questions.

Started a thread recently regarding recruiting/evaluation. As you point out here the struggles involve a variety of factors -- JB's involvement, player development, general player evaluation, etc.

But it seems to me like the philosophy for a while has been to find rangy athletic players and try to mold them into good basketball players. Oversimplification, I know, but watching Taurean Thompson's game as a frosh -- pathetic defense aside -- is pretty impressive. So even though he can't spring off the floor or display superior lateral quickness, he's looked really good.

My question is this: Do you think there could be a subtle change in evaluation style -- worrying a bit less about lenght and perhaps upside and focusing a bit more on present skill and polish? I feel like we did this a bit in the mid-90s with mixed results (really solid regular seasons but brutal losses to more talented teams like Kansas and MSU in the postseason). Just wondering if it helps us avoid the types of departures we've had where we've had good players leave before delivering that season or two of elite production (Mali, Grant, Fab -- other factors obviously -- even MCW to an extent, McCullough, all left without putting up a truly dominant season).

Thoughts? Impossible? Possible but not practical?

Thanks for listening.

With Hop, he's preaching uptempo offense and multiple defensive looks. So I'm thinking he's going to target quickness, athleticism, length, shooting and position versatility. I think he'll do a better job trying to adapt towards the personnel that he's dealing with, rather than employ a system where you have to always get the perfect pieces to match. I like the recruiting philosophy that we have always had in the past with our most successful teams. Target the program guys to build a foundation and then hope to land a couple of five star/NBA type talent to take us over the top. Player development is going to be very crucial moving forward.

 

[pearl31]

Both Morris and Brunson came to our Elite Camp on their own dime with the expectations of receiving an offer. Neither ended up getting an offer and we decided to pass on them.

Let's just look at this. What would your explanation be for why we didn't initially offer and why we then passed?

The problem, Francis, is not with the info and insight you provide. The problem is with what the anti-JB crowd then does with that. Of course that is not on you for providing the info - and I didn't intend my ire to be directed at you - I probably chose the wrong thread to express this stuff.
And, again, please re-read my post or go find some of my posts over the years if you feel like it - I have had plenty of criticisms of JB. He can do plenty wrong and I have no problem with anyone pointing it out when he does.

 

[Jasoncuse]

But to just lay all that on JB's unwillingness or inability to recruit anymore is way off base, IMO. And for the growing contingent on here and elsewhere to seemingly revel in it, to ridicule the man who's made this program, is completely indefensible - I refuse to leave that BS unaddressed.

Nobody is blaming our current woes entirely on JB. Nobody is calling the staff a bunch of incompetents. And I have not seen a single person even suggest that for some reason the staff would tank recruiting on purpose. That's asinine.

What those of us being critical of the staff are saying is that whatever strategy the staff has chosen in terms of identifying recruits, selecting who to go hard after and who to lay off of and the physical types of players we go after doesn't seem to be leading to very good results. We have to acknowledge that whatever JB is doing, or seemingly not doing, on the recruiting trail is having an impact. We never hear about JB watching/visiting a recruit and it actually seems we don't hear about Hop watching anyone much either (I was glad to see Hop was watching Ayala recently).

My biggest gripe is that at a time we need JB and Hop to be leading the recruiting charge, they aren't ahead of the game, especially JB. With only 2 coaches available on the road at a time, it should've been JB out there. We should've had Hop out there a ton. Not Red and Gmac leading the way. When guys like Calimari are everywhere, you begin to understand why we lose Quade after Being on him for a long time and him visiting so often.

Hearing these stories about the staff just passing on Morris,Newton and Brunson when this program needed depth and PG's is crazy. I've been hating on this program lacking guard depth for what seems like 5 years now. The college game revolves around quality guard play, yet it seems we struggle to have 3 on the roster every year. We rarely have 1 good PG, let alone 2 or 3.

All this has happened over the past 3-4 years and we've seen the on court product continue to fade. Yet, what is being done to fix these woes? Why can't we fill out a roster? Why was this 2017 class such a mess when it's been known for some time we needed a big, talented class? What happened?!?!

All of us are SU fans, we all ( well most I guess) LOVE JB. We all appreciate everything he's done for this school and community. How can somebody not respect that? But right now, we can all see there are major issues, a bleak present and little suggesting a quick turnaround. At some point, we have to acknowledge there are questions and issues with what the staff is doing. We've never had a run like this so it's not like we can just say it'll get better based on the past. We're worried about the near future and the long term and I think there are legit reasons for this concern. The good thing is, a big 2018 class is possible and could be a big influence over getting his program back on track. We need the staff to hit it out of the park and hopefully it'll be Hop out there like a mad man.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Thanks for listening.

With Hop, he's preaching uptempo offense and multiple defensive looks. So I'm thinking he's going to target quickness, athleticism, length, shooting and position versatility. I think he'll do a better job trying to adapt towards the personnel that he's dealing with, rather than employ a system where you have to always get the perfect pieces to match. I like the recruiting philosophy that we have always had in the past with our most successful teams. Target the program guys to build a foundation and then hope to land a couple of five star/NBA type talent to take us over the top. Player development is going to be very crucial moving forward.

From your lips (fingers?) to god's ears. I can't see Hop being as restrictive in his system and player/body types as it seems JB has been. I would love to see Hop run a team that plays some zone, some man, maybe some pressure and an up tempo O. That's what the game is now and you have to adapt.

 

[pearl31]

Hearing these stories about the staff just passing on Morris,Newton and Brunson

good post, appreciated.
what is your explanation/theory on why the staff passed on those three?

 

[orangehomer]

I think one of JB's best qualities was his stubbornness. but right now, it is not benefiting the program. there is no right answer, only hindsight, but I am with dean and I think the right-est answer is for JB to move on after this season and accelerate the clock on Hopkins. it's his turn, he has waited long enough and the program needs a jolt.

 

[Jasoncuse]

good post, appreciated.
what is your explanation/theory on why the staff passed on those three?

I honestly don't have one which is why it is so baffling that they passed on what turned out to be 3 very good college players. Brunson is obviously undersized, so that would make sense. Morris is listed at 6'3" and Newton at 6'2", both seem shorter. Who knows. Maybe the guys we got were preferred because of wingspan, as I definitely think our recruiting looks at the zone first and foremost, over actual offensive ability.

But Patterson and Kaleb were both that height too, so I can't just say it was that. So it must be the evaluations done on all these players and that is pretty scary. Neither Kaleb, Buss or Howard has ever looked remotely like good players here while the other 3 have basically been solid or better since stepping foot on their campuses. These evaluations are another wrinkle into why it is a bit scary as we wonder if Hop will have what it takes. Are these his picks? If so, I hope he turns it back around because he's always been a good recruiter.

I just continue to struggle to understand why we alrarely seem to get kids with developed offensive skills. Watch any other game and there are 3-4 ball handlers on the floor per team and multiple guys that can drive. Where is that with our program? We've had this issue for YEARS.

Sorry for the tangents.

 

[pearl31]

I honestly don't have one which is why it is so baffling that they passed on what turned out to be 3 very good college players. Brunson is obviously undersized, so that would make sense. Morris is listed at 6'3" and Newton at 6'2", both seem shorter. Who knows. Maybe the guys we got were preferred because of wingspan, as I definitely think our recruiting looks at the zone first and foremost, over actual offensive ability.

But Patterson and Kaleb were both that height too, so I can't just say it was that. So it must be the evaluations done on all these players and that is pretty scary. Neither Kaleb, Buss or Howard has ever looked remotely like good players here while the other 3 have basically been solid or better since stepping foot on their campuses. These evaluations are another wrinkle into why it is a bit scary as we wonder if Hop will have what it takes. Are these his picks? If so, I hope he turns it back around because he's always been a good recruiter.

I just continue to struggle to understand why we alrarely seem to get kids with developed offensive skills. Watch any other game and there are 3-4 ball handlers on the floor per team and multiple guys that can drive. Where is that with our program? We've had this issue for YEARS.

Sorry for the tangents.

but, see, that's kind of my point. There doesn't seem to be an explanation. We all can agree that JB and staff know enough about basketball and what constitutes a good player that they wouldn't just pass on those players because they didn't think they were good enough and then settle for a Ron Patterson. Don't you/we think it's possible other stuff was at play that none of us are aware of?

 

[RF2044]

but, see, that's kind of my point. There doesn't seem to be an explanation. We all can agree that JB and staff know enough about basketball and what constitutes a good player that they wouldn't just pass on those players because they didn't think they were good enough and then settle for a Ron Patterson. Don't you/we think it's possible other stuff was at play that none of us are aware of?

Let's apply that to the Kaleb Joseph situation. Newton wanted to come here. He visited here first. He had connections to our program through Neumann-Goretti, his coach, etc. and was ready to pull the trigger on his visit. We told him to hold off because our top guy was Joseph, and we wanted to bring Joseph on campus before accepting a commitment from anyone. Joseph visited, and the writing seemed on the wall, and Newton decided to take the next best offer for him. That was pre-sanctions, and we had several open scholarships to play with.

In Monte Morris's case, he also wanted to come here. I believe he went on record as stating that he didn't have an issue with coming in alongside / playing behind Ennis. We didn't offer, he ends up at Iowa State and has a fantastic collegiate career. Meanwhile, we desperately tried to convince Rysheed Jordan to come in alongside Ennis, but he balked and ended up at St. John's. So clearly, we had room and wanted to bring in an extra guard [I don't know if you remember, but that year we had Ennis / Cooney in the backcourt, and no other guards [Gbinije filled in there as the backup at both guard spots]. Monte Morris was literally a bird in the hand who would have committed on the spot, but we passed--and the rest is history. At the very least, it shows that our assessment of Morris's capabilities was off-target to not even offer him a scholarship.

So while I acknowledge that none of us really know what happened behind the scenes in deliberations between players / coaches, the fact that we actively sought to add other guards in both of those classes suggests that something else was afoot. And in a couple of cases, that the staff may have mis-judged the potential of some of the guys we passed on.

 

[ssbriefcase]

Is it possible JB already told the guys (his staff), he's out? And that's the reason it's the Hop and crew show for recruiting, so they can be what they're gonna be? So in essence, like the torch has been passed as far as recruiting goes. I'm with pearl31 in thinking there's a lot more to the big picture and each individual recruits story. Also agree with RF and others, and think they mis-judged on a few kids obviously.

 

[Francis03]

Nobody is blaming our current woes entirely on JB. Nobody is calling the staff a bunch of incompetents. And I have not seen a single person even suggest that for some reason the staff would tank recruiting on purpose. That's asinine.

What those of us being critical of the staff are saying is that whatever strategy the staff has chosen in terms of identifying recruits, selecting who to go hard after and who to lay off of and the physical types of players we go after doesn't seem to be leading to very good results. We have to acknowledge that whatever JB is doing, or seemingly not doing, on the recruiting trail is having an impact. We never hear about JB watching/visiting a recruit and it actually seems we don't hear about Hop watching anyone much either (I was glad to see Hop was watching Ayala recently).

My biggest gripe is that at a time we need JB and Hop to be leading the recruiting charge, they aren't ahead of the game, especially JB. With only 2 coaches available on the road at a time, it should've been JB out there. We should've had Hop out there a ton. Not Red and Gmac leading the way. When guys like Calimari are everywhere, you begin to understand why we lose Quade after Being on him for a long time and him visiting so often.

Hearing these stories about the staff just passing on Morris,Newton and Brunson when this program needed depth and PG's is crazy. I've been hating on this program lacking guard depth for what seems like 5 years now. The college game revolves around quality guard play, yet it seems we struggle to have 3 on the roster every year. We rarely have 1 good PG, let alone 2 or 3.

All this has happened over the past 3-4 years and we've seen the on court product continue to fade. Yet, what is being done to fix these woes? Why can't we fill out a roster? Why was this 2017 class such a mess when it's been known for some time we needed a big, talented class? What happened?!?!

All of us are SU fans, we all ( well most I guess) LOVE JB. We all appreciate everything he's done for this school and community. How can somebody not respect that? But right now, we can all see there are major issues, a bleak present and little suggesting a quick turnaround. At some point, we have to acknowledge there are questions and issues with what the staff is doing. We've never had a run like this so it's not like we can just say it'll get better based on the past. We're worried about the near future and the long term and I think there are legit reasons for this concern. The good thing is, a big 2018 class is possible and could be a big influence over getting his program back on track. We need the staff to hit it out of the park and hopefully it'll be Hop out there like a mad man.

Good stuff, JC. Totally feel the same.

 

[Francis03]

Let's apply that to the Kaleb Joseph situation. Newton wanted to come here. He visited here first. He had connections to our program through Neumann-Goretti, his coach, etc. and was ready to pull the trigger on his visit. We told him to hold off because our top guy was Joseph, and we wanted to bring Joseph on campus before accepting a commitment from anyone. Joseph visited, and the writing seemed on the wall, and Newton decided to take the next best offer for him. That was pre-sanctions, and we had several open scholarships to play with.

In Monte Morris's case, he also wanted to come here. I believe he went on record as stating that he didn't have an issue with coming in alongside / playing behind Ennis. We didn't offer, he ends up at Iowa State and has a fantastic collegiate career. Meanwhile, we desperately tried to convince Rysheed Jordan to come in alongside Ennis, but he balked and ended up at St. John's. So clearly, we had room and wanted to bring in an extra guard [I don't know if you remember, but that year we had Ennis / Cooney in the backcourt, and no other guards [Gbinije filled in there as the backup at both guard spots]. Monte Morris was literally a bird in the hand who would have committed on the spot, but we passed--and the rest is history. At the very least, it shows that our assessment of Morris's capabilities was off-target to not even offer him a scholarship.

So while I acknowledge that none of us really know what happened behind the scenes in deliberations between players / coaches, the fact that we actively sought to add other guards in both of those classes suggests that something else was afoot. And in a couple of cases, that the staff may have mis-judged the potential of some of the guys we passed on.

Good breakdown, RF. I think at the end of the day the staff just mad bad judgments on their choices. There is really nothing more to overanalyze. It's not like Morris, Brunson and Newton had recruitments that were circuses dealing with high drama and handlers with crazy demands to turn the staff off. They were all pretty much straight forward and low maintenance. It's like when we had picked Josh Wright over Kyle Lowry and AJ Price. It hurt us after the season when GMac was gone because Wright was a mess at PG and we had to move Devo over to the one spot out of default. We bounced back quickly due to landing Jonny Flynn and Scoop. In this case the staff hasn't found that quick fix in the post Ennis era and that has led us to this point unfortunately.

 

[SoBeCuse]

but, see, that's kind of my point. There doesn't seem to be an explanation. We all can agree that JB and staff know enough about basketball and what constitutes a good player that they wouldn't just pass on those players because they didn't think they were good enough and then settle for a Ron Patterson. Don't you/we think it's possible other stuff was at play that none of us are aware of?

Why is an "explanation" needed? We can't go back in time and undo the process. The fact is that the certain players in this thread who were chosen were chosen and either they aren't here anymore or haven't been able to perform at a competent level here. The only uncertainty to me is how much of this falls on player development. Multiple posters who have first hand knowledge including Francis (did you even listen to the pod?) have explained how the staff has handled the process. The fact is JB is not involved very much. Nobody is "reveling" or making fun of him. It is what it is. Hopkins and Autry are identifying targets and JB is signing off. He's sending GMac out to battle Calipari 1-on-1 for the rights to Quade Green. Obviously there was no way to tell back then that they picked the wrong guys but they picked the wrong guys. Obviously their reasoning for those decisions was wrong. They made mistakes. It happens. It's a HUGE reason why we have been in dire straits from the PG/ballhandling standpoint for three years now.

 

[Toga]

Why is an "explanation" needed? We can't go back in time and undo the process. The fact is that the certain players in this thread who were chosen were chosen and either they aren't here anymore or haven't been able to perform at a competent level here. The only uncertainty to me is how much of this falls on player development. Multiple posters who have first hand knowledge including Francis (did you even listen to the pod?) have explained how the staff has handled the process. The fact is JB is not involved very much. Nobody is "reveling" or making fun of him. It is what it is. Hopkins and Autry are identifying targets and JB is signing off. He's sending GMac out to battle Calipari 1-on-1 for the rights to Quade Green. Obviously there was no way to tell back then that they picked the wrong guys but they picked the wrong guys. Obviously their reasoning for those decisions was wrong. They made mistakes. It happens. It's a HUGE reason why we have been in dire straits from the PG/ballhandling standpoint for three years now.

He's sending GMac out to battle Calipari 1-on-1 for the rights to Quade Green. AAaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh

 

[Toga]

How proficient is each of the coaching staff in use of social media?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I often wonder if the short bench is a contributing factor that explains why we sometimes have difficulty building depth at each position. Opposing coaches could easily negative recruit and say "Hey, if you go to Syracuse, I really hope you're sure you're one of their top 7 players, otherwise get comfortable on the bench."

 

[SoBeCuse]

Good breakdown, RF. I think at the end of the day the staff just mad bad judgments on their choices. There is really nothing more to overanalyze. It's not like Morris, Brunson and Newton had recruitments that were circuses dealing with high drama and handlers with crazy demands to turn the staff off. They were all pretty much straight forward and low maintenance. It's like when we had picked Josh Wright over Kyle Lowry and AJ Price. It hurt us after the season when GMac was gone because Wright was a mess at PG and we had to move Devo over to the one spot out of default. We bounced back quickly due to landing Jonny Flynn and Scoop. In this case the staff hasn't found that quick fix in the post Ennis era and that has led us to this point unfortunately.

In addition, people talk about Ennis like he was John Wall or something. Or some All-American transcendant talent. Some irreplaceable force. He was a good PG and poised frosh but with plenty of holes in his game. Last time I checked, the Ennis team went into a massive tailspin, lost their ACC Tourney game, then lost to Dayton in the Tourney.

 

[We Are Syracuse]

How proficient is each of the coaching staff in use of social media?

Idk but if they are not good we need to advise them to Sean Lewis bc that mans Twitter game is FIRE. regarding this thread, agree with JC and Francis obviously. When it comes to recruiting, IMO, you should bring in a point guard in every single class. Absolute necessity IMO. You can never have too many playmakers. Lots of teams are playing with 2 point guards because playmaking is basketball. Recruit 3s and 4s that can shoot so they can make life easier for the two combo guards on the floor. The 3 and 4 should be interchangeable and can guard both positions (3 and the 4). You want your 5 man to be a big body that can be a threat as a roller in ball screen situations. You also need him to be a big body and have a somewhat competent post game so teams cannot just switch every pick and roll. If teams switch early in the shot clock you immediately go into a Hi-Lo with this 5-man and play inside-out (European teams punish those who switch early in the shot clock).

This team has been failing miserably at recruiting point guards recently BUT I truly think the poor play from a lot of these point guards is our offensive system and the lack of concepts and spacing. We force our players to take so many tough shots and we make the game offensively in the half court seem so challenging every time down.

 

[Ward]

I'm not saying anything happened, other than the specific players in question (Morris/Brunson) didn't end up at Syracuse.

The premise that has emerged is that JB/staff essentially tanked this thing either on purpose or out of sheer incompetence. I find that premise, in either of its scenarios (and especially coming from supposed Syracuse fans), to completely misguided and unfortunate.

People are frustrated because they care about the program and are such big fans - not because they've been following the program for years waiting for their moment to get to knock the staff.

I still think the program can 100% absolutely get things back on track. It may take a year or two to restock the shelves and get guys developed but that could be fun in and of itself to watch our guys through that process.

Though I will say, I don't think anyone has said that the coaches are deliberately going out of their way to try and bring down the program. That's just crazy and irrational. However, I don't think it's inaccurate to say that for whatever reason management of the roster has taken a step back the last few years, this predated sanctions, and it seems that some of the catalysts are self inflicted.

 

[Newhouser]

We are not now and have never been a program that has the depth to tell a player as highly ranked as Brunson - thanks we aren't interested. That mistake is compounded by the fact that the world of college basketball is changing every day and people leave all the time. Highly ranked players interested in us should be pursued - need, position, etc be damned.

 

[AZOrange]

I don't think that the staff refused to give Bruson the time of day -- they hosted the player and his father on a visit to the Carmelo K. Anthony center. The interest just wasn't reciprocal, despite Jaylen being such a highly rated recruit. Which is crazy, because he had a ton of other offers. This wasn't just some marginal talent that the dad was trying to talk up with the coaches in hopes of garnering a scholarship--this was a very highly rated prospect with elite skills / impressive offer list.

In fairness, he's small [5-10, probably 170 pounds]. Not a guy who jumps out as a fit for our system. BUT he started a lot on a national championship team. And we know the predicament we're in at PG.

What makes me mad has absolutely ZERO to do with any old connections I have to the dad, but rather that PG is the one position where we shouldn't sacrifice skill for size--and yet we repeatedly do. Was Jaylen a McD's all American? Might have been--not sure without looking--but you don't turn your nose up at players of that caliber. Especially when PG is a position of relative weakness on the squad [which it was last season, forcing G to play there].

And this isn't the first time this has happened. Monte Morris drove up with his mom on their own dime to participate in the elite camp, expecting to get an offer. Despite playing well, the staff turned up their nose in favor of Ennis [despite the fact that we had a TON of scholarships to use that year, and that Morris said that he'd come here even if Ennis did as well] and he ended up at Iowa State, where he's been an all American caliber player for three years. Think we could have used him the last three years?

The following year, Jaquan Newton from Neumann-Gorretti [sound familar?] wanted to come here, but we were all-in on Kaleb Joseph and wouldn't let him commit. Joseph flamed out here, but Newton is a starter at Miami. Another swing and miss. Not suggesting that he is a world beater, but he's worlds better than Joseph was.

Brunson is just another example of a lengthy trend of strange recruiting decisions on guards made by the staff in recent years.

Please just stop. My heads going to explode