FSU vs The ACC

[kingtidge]

I am curious to hear a viable position as to why the ACC would negotiate at all with FSU. I keep seeing references to lower buyouts but there is nothing I have read that could drive that outcome baring perhaps the potential of a court decision but FSU really does not seemingly have a strong case. So why would the ACC negotiate?
On a separate note does the ACC have any way to apply fines to members, for example similar to conduct detrimental to the league/conference? I mean there has to be some clauses in a contract of this nature that would go to protecting the integrity of the conference or something? Lastly can the ACC pay FSU in pennies delivered by dump trucks? I would actually pay to see that happen. Since FSU is attempting to go nuclear here why do anything at all that would be helpful to them?

Because of the lawsuit... the judge could rule 100% in the ACC's favor and mandate the contract stands as written and is fully-enforceable, or they could rule that the contract can be exited under a lower fee arrangement and set those stipulations, or (perhaps more likely) not set those stipulations and send both parties to arbitration, where the lowered buyout negotiation will happen.

 

[Willy75]

Because of the lawsuit... the judge could rule 100% in the ACC's favor and mandate the contract stands written and is enforceable, or they could rule that the contract can be exited under a lower fee arrangement and set those stipulations, or (perhaps more likely) not set those stipulations and send both parties to arbitration, where the lowered buyout negotiation will happen.

Legally nobody can be forced to participate in arbitration; it has to be consensual on both sides. Similarly no court can rewrite a contract, e.g. to establish a different buyout amount.

 

[Cusefan69]

Because of the lawsuit... the judge could rule 100% in the ACC's favor and mandate the contract stands written and is enforceable, or they could rule that the contract can be exited under a lower fee arrangement and set those stipulations, or (perhaps more likely) not set those stipulations and send both parties to arbitration, where the lowered buyout negotiation will happen.

Interesting and thanks. Did not realize the judge could adjust under lower fee. Would that be predicated though on other similar constructs in the P5? Typically there would be reference to an arbitration clause as well in the contract. Can judge otherwise force arbitration if one party does not wish to?

 

[NKR1978]

I am curious to hear a viable position as to why the ACC would negotiate at all with FSU. I keep seeing references to lower buyouts but there is nothing I have read that could drive that outcome baring perhaps the potential of a court decision but FSU really does not seemingly have a strong case. So why would the ACC negotiate?
On a separate note does the ACC have any way to apply fines to members, for example similar to conduct detrimental to the league/conference? I mean there has to be some clauses in a contract of this nature that would go to protecting the integrity of the conference or something? Lastly can the ACC pay FSU in pennies delivered by dump trucks? I would actually pay to see that happen. Since FSU is attempting to go nuclear here why do anything at all that would be helpful to them?

I believe the ACC can withhold payments from a school that has indicated an intent to leave the conference. In its suit, FSU has asked the Florida court to find retroactive notice of withdrawal to August 2023. I think the ACC would be perfectly within its rights to withhold all conference payments to FSU until the litigation is resolved.

 

[kingtidge]

Interesting and thanks. Did not realize the judge could adjust under lower fee. Would that be predicated though on other similar constructs in the P5? Typically there would be reference to an arbitration clause as well in the contract. Can judge otherwise force arbitration if one party does not wish to?

I was wrong on that and Willy75 is correct. Judge cannot stipulate a lower fee.

Arbitration could only happen if the contract has an enforceable arbitration clause. Some are saying it probably does; others saying not a chance.

This is an interesting legal assessment of the situation and the lawyer interviewed states that "home cooking" is definitely thing to watch here, meaning if the ACC gets their venue of preference for the trial in NC, advantage ACC; if FSU gets their home state of FL for the trial, advantage FSU:

 

[HtownOrange]

But how many dimensions are they playing in?

Just one, "TIC". They hope to move into the second dimension"TAC" by the mid 2030's. That will show real improvement.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Miami doesn't have mediocre academics

Well, they're probably the lowest ranked school in the ACC aside from maybe Louisville and Florida State.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Yeah, it's likely going to happen... just a matter of how much it's gonna cost FSU to buy their way out. It may very well be in the $100-200mil range.

Once it's done and that benchmark is set, expect the implosion to start, as other programs prep and monetize their exit strategy from the ACC for the B1G or SEC.

It will be interesting to see how many teams actually get landing spots.

I'd expect some B12 teams will also try their luck if they are guaranteed a landing spot.

I seriously doubt $100-$200 million. That's chump change compared to what's on the table.

 

[HtownOrange]

1. The ACC assets are cheaper in the ACC than they would be in the SEC. So ESPN has no incentive to move schools to the SEC.

2. Some of those ACC assets will end up in the B1G. ESPN has no incentive to lose those assets now.

3. ESPN has cost in the ACCN and does not want that to fail.

You can add to your list that the ACC brings ESPN revenue equal to the ACC and is a money maker. Weakening the conference only weakens their bottom line. (And the Mickey Mouse, Inc.'s bottom line).

Further, if the ACC breaks up, the B1G is likely to take a few schools and include SI and Pitt to lock ESPN out of college sports on the northeast. The northeast has the most concentrated population and it will take decades for ESPN to get back in to the northeast. (This expands your second point).

The above would then limit ESPN to the SEC and the Big 12 but the Big 12 does not carry any weight as they are mostly other-ran schools.

Anyway, I have not read up on the thread since before Christmas but the lawsuit as filed originally was against the ACC and ESPN is the rights holder now, this, this is less logical than FSU believes. ESPN has to be brought in for any kind of resolution barring FSU withdrawing the lawsuit or the courts shutting FSU down before they can get a trial.

 

[Moontan]

FFSU!

 

[DoctorBombay]

Here's a thought for all the legal beagles; If the GOR is found to be invalid or breakable, what's to prevent the opposite from happening? Why couldn't conferences determine that certain members were not as valuable, and then boot them for other programs who might be worth more to them? After all, they'll be no more restricted movement between conferences, and since it's all about money, why not leave a Vanderbilt or Northwestern behind?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Here's a thought for all the legal beagles; If the GOR is found to be invalid or breakable, what's to prevent the opposite from happening? Why couldn't conferences determine that certain members were not as valuable, and then boot them for other programs who might be worth more to them? After all, they'll be no more restricted movement between conferences, and since it's all about money, why not leave a Vanderbilt or Northwestern behind?

The BE booted Temple once.

1. Temple was only an associate member for football only.

2. Temple failed to meet minimum attendance requirements.

I can't think of an example where a P5 conference voted a full member off the island without cause.

 

[DoctorBombay]

The BE booted Temple once.

1. Temple was only an associate member for football only.

2. Temple failed to meet minimum attendance requirements.

I can't think of an example where a P5 conference voted a full member off the island without cause.

Agreed- & I remember the Temple situation well.
Once upon a time when academics ruled the landscape, you'd have a sense of pride in having a Stanford, Vanderbilt, or Northwestern in the fold. But we're in a new world when it comes to conference and money. What's to stop any of the P2 from deciding certain teams are dead weight, regardless of their academic heft?
Again, just speculation on my part- but at this point it's not so farfetched, no? JMHO

 

[TexanMark]

Well, they're probably the lowest ranked school in the ACC aside from maybe Louisville and Florida State.

You'd be wrong

 

[rottweiler44]

Here's a thought for all the legal beagles; If the GOR is found to be invalid or breakable, what's to prevent the opposite from happening? Why couldn't conferences determine that certain members were not as valuable, and then boot them for other programs who might be worth more to them? After all, they'll be no more restricted movement between conferences, and since it's all about money, why not leave a Vanderbilt or Northwestern behind?

I've been thinking this as well. If we are really thinking clearly, why do any of these schools get to be "in" automatically except a ton of meh?

Indiana
Purdue
Minnesota
Iowa
Rutgers
Northwestern
Vanderbilt

Also, I can see why UNC is so coveted for expansion, I mean look at that crowd at their bowl game in Charlotte, wow!

 

[CuseCactus]

I think it’s funny that 50 or whatever players at FSU are skipping the bowl. Hope GA lays fity on em

 

[IthacaMatt]

Miami has turned itself into one of the more selective schools in the country. People need to out of their 80s/90s mentality when it comes to some schools.

They're currently ranked number 67 in US News & World Report.
People lost their minds around here when Syracuse fell from mid-30s to the 50s under Chancellor Cantor. But I see that Syracuse has fallen that far, too.

You'd be wrong

Forbes ranks them 120th, and Money magazine gives them 3.5 stars out of 5. That puts them on par with New Mexico, South Dakota, Samford, Monmouth, Iona, Duquesne or Oberlin.

The reason that the school is relatively selective is because you're going to school in paradise. Not because of academic achievement, when their most famous alumni remain The Rock and Sly Stallone.

 

[NKR1978]

They're currently ranked number 67 in US News & World Report.
People lost their minds around here when Syracuse fell from mid-30s to the 50s under Chancellor Cantor. But I see that Syracuse has fallen that far, too.



Forbes ranks them 120th, and Money magazine gives them 3.5 stars out of 5. That puts them on par with New Mexico, South Dakota, Samford, Monmouth, Iona, Duquesne or Oberlin.

The reason that the school is relatively selective is because you're going to school in paradise. Not because of academic achievement, when their most famous alumni remain The Rock and Sly Stallone.

They have a 28% acceptance rate. That says way more to me than a ranking from a dinosaur magazine.

 

[JimBoston]

- Aren't they paying ~$400M now for the 17 ACC FB schools' Tier 1/2 TV? So that gap is smaller than you propose.

- If ESPN is turning that $400M into say $500M (no clue how much smaller or larger just giving an example) what does it matter what the cost was? By reducing cost they are also reducing revenue and profit. It isn't like by reducing cost they are getting a better margin.

- Why would the B1G just take 2 schools? There is no incentive to stop at 20. While that reduces ESPN financial commitment, it also is lost brands, markets, and inventory for ESPN. That is less revenue.


If the margins are small then sure, reduce costs. My guess is that the margins are pretty big. So why reduce inventory? If FB margins were small, ESPN wouldn't own all these Bowl minor games.

I was rounding financial numbers, but the point is that ESPN can save money by moving schools to other conferences and dropping some ACC schools. As far as "losing revenues" by losing brands, if ESPN moves 4 schools to the SEC and 4 schools to the Big 12, they have more than enough college football content for their 12 main slots on ABC/ESPN/ESPN2 on Saturdays and 2 to 3 SECN games. Look at how many ACC games are streamed or on the ACCN because ESPN does not have time slots available. And, ESPN also has filler conferences like the AAC, MAC, SBC, and CUSA to fill in time slots like on Thursday and Friday nights, ESPNU, ESPN+.

As for margin, the way ESPN is getting paid today is a monthly fee from cable companies for each subscriber. Plus, they get advertising revenues. The revenues will not change with reducing some content, but revenues will decline due to cable cord cutting. So, if you can reduce your costs, you will see better margins

 

[CuseCactus]

They have a 28% acceptance rate. That says way more to me than a ranking from a dinosaur magazine.

My son is far more likely headed to Miami than Syracuse. We are fading. Hopefully, this will change.

 

[qdawgg]

I was wrong on that and Willy75 is correct. Judge cannot stipulate a lower fee.

Arbitration could only happen if the contract has an enforceable arbitration clause. Some are saying it probably does; others saying not a chance.

This is an interesting legal assessment of the situation and the lawyer interviewed states that "home cooking" is definitely thing to watch here, meaning if the ACC gets their venue of preference for the trial in NC, advantage ACC; if FSU gets their home state of FL for the trial, advantage FSU:

Except the trial can’t be in Florida based on how the contract was written. I didn’t watch the vid but based on the fact they don’t even know all the information……..

 

[IthacaMatt]

They have a 28% acceptance rate. That says way more to me than a ranking from a dinosaur magazine.

And their top 3 majors are, nursing, finance and general studies. Two out of three of those are junior college level stuff. It's not just about admission rates. It's about total cost of attendence, and how the graduates do in the job market. All of those things go into rankings, along with quality of professors and other resources available to students.

 

[Hoo's That]

Here's a thought for all the legal beagles; If the GOR is found to be invalid or breakable, what's to prevent the opposite from happening? Why couldn't conferences determine that certain members were not as valuable, and then boot them for other programs who might be worth more to them? After all, they'll be no more restricted movement between conferences, and since it's all about money, why not leave a Vanderbilt or Northwestern behind?

A version of that is coming. They can't just get rid of them because there probably aren't enough votes to meet the right level.

"Everyone" has said, "Why would anybody want to leave the SEC or B1G because of all the money they get?" The answer - For even more money in a conference of just blue bloods. If the GoRs are gone, expect another massive realignment as Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State, the 4 Pac-12 teams the B1G picked up, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, LSU, Tennessee, Clemson, Florida State, and 3 other teams for a Group of 20 so Nick Saban gets his wish and Alabama isn't subsidizing Vanderbilt anymore.

 

[TexanMark]

And their top 3 majors are, nursing, finance and general studies. Two out of three of those are junior college level stuff. It's not just about admission rates. It's about total cost of attendence, and how the graduates do in the job market. All of those things go into rankings, along with quality of professors and other resources available to students.

They are AAU and they have a huge medical center too.

 

[IthacaMatt]

They have a 28% acceptance rate. That says way more to me than a ranking from a dinosaur magazine.

Yeah, because it's an inexpensive school, about half the cost of SU, and it's located in paradise. Miami is the most fun city in the country.