Going Into Year 8, I Still Don't Know What To Think of Dino

[LeMoyneCuse]

Why does Syracuse have to pry away a successful P5 coach from another school? Couldn't that coach come from a prior successful P5 stint or other? Look what Mora has done for UConn in one season! Uconn!!! With all of those forceful trade winds blowing in their face. So, IMO, the "budget" whoa is SU type garb doesn't cut it for me.


Okay.

8 years later and a 19-39 ACC conference record, Babers' star has long faded and is black hole-esque at this stage, IMO.



Your opinion regarding "great fits." And, perhaps a perennial (consistent) winner in the MAC could have equal to perhaps even better results with all of the other luxuries, benefits, $$$, etc. a P5 school has at its fingertips vs. that of lessor G5 types? Who knows? But yeah, if you are one of those "if Dino can't do it here than no else or who can types" that's right up your sentiment alley.

First of all, show me where I said "If Dino can't do it here, no one else can either."

Second, what are you even arguing? You want a perpetual winner but would also take someone who was fired for losing at a different P5 school?

 

[djorange1989]

Dino should send Dungey a Christmas card every year. No way he survives 1-10 if not for the longer leash he got from 10-3.

I love Dungey too, but you look at that team, they were good. Veteran OL, really good WRs and RBs, two guys with double digit sacks, one of the best turnover ratios in the country(led by a freshman who led the nation in INTs) best kicker in America, excellent coverage units. Sorry but that wasn’t just Dungey. Also didn’t hurt that the conference kinda sucked that year, but that’s another story

 

[007]

No what would help with game management, scoring more points and giving up less

Letting Beck manage all 2 minute and time out situations, like Mendenhall did at UVA, would be a great place to start.

 

[All4SU]

Great coaches have great staffs. Our staff has been spotty. Very good in spots, while poor in others. Maybe this year that all comes together. I hope so. When HCDB got hired here I thought, if this guy can’t win here, no one can.

 

[McNabb2Brominski]

He’s a legit P5 HC, but definitely not perfect. He rightfully earned his contract extension with the 10-3 year and beating Clemson. 2019 + Covid year really derailed the program’s momentum, but it seems like we’re slowly getting it back on track. I like Dino for the most part, solid leader, knows how to build/run a program, controls the locker room and players seem to enjoy playing for him. If you exclude covid year, he’s a .500 coach. Not great, but I’m willing to hold out hope. This year will be a pivotal year for him.

 

[donniesyracuse]

He maintains his cool under pressure.

The poor clock management and questionable decisions might suggest the opposite is true.

My boring opinion is he has had just enough success to still be the head coach, but has work to do to keep it moving forward.

 

[SUDadx2]

I was thinking about this yesterday and tried to write out some thoughts. It felt more like a blog than a message board post, so I asked TNIAAM to publish it.

Curious what you all think.

Thanks for sharing your article.

"But then there are Dino’s faults: excessive secrecy, questionable game management, over-reliance on coaches he knows, and inconsistent player development. A have-not like Syracuse football needs to be different and take every advantage it can. Whether Dino is doing enough is ultimately unclear."

• Excessive secrecy. I find this to be very similar to most coaches. Do you know of a program that is NOT guarded like this? Please name a couple if you do know of any.

• Questionable game management. Although I think this improved a bit last season, what happened at Clemson in 2022 was terrible; allowing the clock to run for 25 seconds before calling a timeout and leaving two timeouts on the board at the end of the game. This must continue to improve.

• Over-reliance on coaches he knows. Dino has made of couple of bad hires while at Syracuse, but would you prefer he relied on coaches he doesn't know? 2023 will be Dino's 38th year of coaching on the collegiate level. He knows more than a few coaches out there. I am glad he knew Rocky Long and I'm glad he knew Bronco Mendenhall who referred Anae and Back to him.

• Inconsistent player development. Unfortunately, this goes hand in hand with being a program that relies on 3* recruits. Not every 5* recruit pans out either, but 3* pan out less often than 4* or 5* recruits. "There's saying among coaches when it comes to recruiting, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken ." Or "great players make good coaches appear to be great." We need to raise the bar and start recruiting against ACC teams rather than MAC teams if we expect to consistently compete with ACC teams. Every year we seem to sign a couple of players who didn't have a single offer from a P5 school other than Syracuse. IMO, the lack of development has more to do with our poor recruiting than any lack of development.
  • Our 2023 high school recruiting class:
    • Only one player had an offer from Pitt.
    • No one had an offer from BC
    • No one had an offer from Clemson or FSU. If we can't recruit against them, is it reasonable to expect the team to be able to compete with these teams on the field year in and year out?
  • The 2024 high school recruiting class, so far:
    • 4 commits have an offer from Pitt.
    • 5 commits have offers from BC.
    • No commits have an offer from Clemson.
    • No commits have offers from FSU.
  • Clemson's 2023 recruiting class had 26 commits.
    • Syracuse offered 4 of those players. (We aren't even fishing in the same waters)
    • BC offered 5 of those players.
    • Pitt offered 8 of those players.
    • And the football power know as Duke offered 12 of those players.

I like Dino

• He is a high character person.
• He represents the University well.
• He a good leader of men.
• He has established a good culture in the program.
• He has the program headed in a positive direction.
  • The 2023 team is better than the 2022 team.
  • The 2022 team was better than the 2021 team.
  • Recruiting, although we need to raise the bar here, is better than it has been in recent years.

 

[klemmer56]

Want to make a splash, hire Al Golden this year as HC.

He will not be with ND long. Miami not withstanding, his work with Temple is a benchmark.

 

[CousCuse]

Chris Creighton from Eastern Michigan

Huge fan of this guy.

 

[Eric15]

• Questionable game management. Although I think this improved a bit last season, what happened at Clemson in 2022 was terrible; allowing the clock to run for 25 seconds before calling a timeout and leaving two timeouts on the board at the end of the game. This must continue to improve.

Yep, and it happened in 2018, as well. Almost a shockingly similar situation. In 2018, we needed to start using our timeouts to give ourselves some semblance of time to work with for a final drive when it was clear to everyone on Earth that Clemson was going to score. I distinctly remember Sean McDonough (who was clearly using every ounce of effort in his body not to openly root for us to win) being frustrated about this.

 

[OrangeTarheel]

Dino really is at the prime of his coaching career, I hope he stays long enough to not only turn this thing around for the long term but also get to enjoy the fruits of his labor for a few years

 

[Bulldog04]

Listen I love this program. I haven’t missed a game since I was 12. However, this is nothing that says Dino is a good coach that wins games. Eric Dungey won him games. Tony White won him games. And his record still stinks. He has shown countless errors in games that were mind boggling.

Just because you can hire good other coaches doesn’t make you a good coach. It makes you a good hire and person in charge yes. But this isn’t a company, this is a team. And I don’t know how many times a boss who does his job 30% of the time remains in that job for 8 years making millions of dollars.

I always want the team and Dino to do well, but this whole thing about “don’t have enough budget and no coach can win here” is all nonsense. If you want someone enough you pay for them, so sick of the school acting like they are so broke. It’s a joke.

If this season doesn’t go well considering everything that has happened with investments into the program and coaches, he should be fired. I never hope for that. Just want wins

 

[Trueblue25]

Dino’s done very little, if anything, that tells me he’s an in game p5 coach.

He’s a great face for our program though and has recruited well.

Back to back winning seasons is too much to expect at Cuse? With the support ADJW and SU has given Dino? Please.

I like him at SU but if we fail to make a bowl this year then we shouldn’t paint a corolla as a corvette.

I am rooting for him to succeed. I hope hes our guy. I just don’t have as low an opinion about the prospects of Syracuse football as others. It speaks volumes that we still dont have a consensus opinion after several years.

 

[money3189]

I think his ups and downs are indicative of the challenges of coaching at SU. There has been transitions he’s dealt with. New conference, transfers, NIL, covid. Recruiting has always been bad when SU is down.

There are risks you take that can benefit the team or can hurt the team. One thing that I am guaranteed of is that we would be nitpicking and tearing down the decisions of the coach no matter who it was. Fans are never always happy. There is always something that could have been done that would have prevented our disappointment.

 

[djorange1989]

Yep, and it happened in 2018, as well. Almost a shockingly similar situation. In 2018, we needed to start using our timeouts to give ourselves some semblance of time to work with for a final drive when it was clear to everyone on Earth that Clemson was going to score. I distinctly remember Sean McDonough (who was clearly using every ounce of effort in his body not to openly root for us to win) being frustrated about this.

Sean was even more angry about it last year when Dino froze, he was borderline flipping out

 

[Dick_in_MI]

We are all schizophrenic about Dino; we all love him, but...

On the plus side, we like him. Still, being likable is not a performance objective. A coach can be 12 kinds of serial killer and the fans and the AD will like him as long as he wins.

He had that nifty 10 win season, albeit with a QB he didn't recruit. Still, I'm pretty sure that the guy who DID recruit Dungey couldn't have gotten 10 wins with him. All credit to Dino for the 10 wins and I'll discuss it again shortly.

On the downside, his record is what his record is. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'd bet a lot of $$$ that our record in the ACC during the Dino years is near the bottom. If you told me it was the worst, I would not be surprised.

Let's address some stuff that is often brought up:

1. "You can't win at SU". When someone says that, they are grasping at straws. P won. Marrone had two 8-win seasons in 4 years, and that was rebuilding from the Robinson disaster. Dino himself had a 10-win season and a 7-win season. Of course you can win if you are the right coach.

2. "If Dino can't do it, nobody can." That is fanboy talk. This is a business, a performance-based job, and the correct business assessment is "We are in a major conference and this guy is the highest-paid employee at the university. Does his performance merit his salary and further employment?" As an aside, if JW thinks nobody can win at SU, he is the wrong man for the AD job.

3. "We will never be Alabama." Biggest strawman in the world. Absolutely nobody believes we will ever be Alabama nor do they say it. We should be as good or better than our peer schools, however. That should be a minimum expectation.

4. "Dino is willing to change." Putting aside for the moment that he may well have been instructed to do that by his boss, changing when things aren't working is what you are SUPPOSED to do. To paraphrase Chris Rock, you don't get credit for doing what you are supposed to do.

As for me, I think we will go somewhere between decent and 8-9 wins this year. Perhaps I am always optimistic pre-season, but so be it. Beat Colgate, Army, and WMU and we need only go 3-6 against P-5 opponents to get to the bowl-like event of college football these days. Perhaps the Prevagen "Jellyfish sure have Great Memories" Bowl or something like that. 4-5 against P5 foes gets us to 7-5 and Dino is likely extended. I think we can do that and maybe a bit more. Hope so for SU's sake and our sanity.

 

[007]

I always want the team and Dino to do well, but this whole thing about “don’t have enough budget and no coach can win here” is all nonsense. If you want someone enough you pay for them, so sick of the school acting like they are so broke. It’s a joke.

You know I love ya brother...but you know better than most here that the coaching salary narrative about SU not wanting to pay for coaches is a board myth. SU will never set the market for coaching salaries, but they have been competitive when they need to be over the last few years under JW.

 

[kcsu]

I think that Dino might have finally found his way as a coach with some very strong prodding from JW.

He is focused on NJ and east coast kids Thank God
He is a good CEO and I believe that who he is as a person resonates with kids and that in turn will help us retain and attract players.
He has hired a good staff and rebounded very well from the coaches that left.

If he can stay in his lane be the CEO and let the assistant and most importantly the coordinators handle in game decisions, we will win more games.

I think he makes it.

 

[gbo]

He's a good dude. I'm just not sure if he's a builder. I think he'd be great at a turnkey program if that makes sense...

 

[SUskibum]

I think his ups and downs are indicative of the challenges of coaching at SU. There has been transitions he’s dealt with. New conference, transfers, NIL, covid. Recruiting has always been bad when SU is down.

There are risks you take that can benefit the team or can hurt the team. One thing that I am guaranteed of is that we would be nitpicking and tearing down the decisions of the coach no matter who it was. Fans are never always happy. There is always something that could have been done that would have prevented our disappointment.

Yep, the extremely hard to grasp (and frustrating) concept is that, if you throw out the top handful of elite coaches and the bottom handful of dumpster fire coaches from the P5 you are left with most coaches who are only worth about 1 game in either direction plus another 2-3 games of luck that can run in either direction in any year(s) due to outside factors (schedule, matchups, injuries, calls, bad beats etc.).

Also much more of the quality of the head coach impacts the program outside of a dozen Saturday's a year, probably 80/20 (And this is coming from somebody as frustrated with Dino’s game day decisions as anyone). Getting good players, with the right frames/athleticism, in a solid scheme, with the right training regimen, coached by high quality coaches, fostering the right motivations (family/togetherness) outweighs by far how often we go for it on 4th down or calling too many runs or deep passes or playing the ‘wrong’ player somewhere.

Things like athletic/football infrastructure, practice/weight room facilities, housing, nutrition, staff size, staff quality/budget, fan support, location all matter much more than if you got a head coach who is average or worth 1 game above (basically the best you can ever afford unless your Bama or OSU or Clemson etc). For example, there is nobody on earth that can convince me that if Dino was given $1mm to hire an OC in 2019/20 he would have run with Lynch or Dumpster Gilbert the cowboy (or Kirk Martin for a more reasonable assistant QB coach budget). Similarly nobody can convince me that if Dino was able to match Nebraska’s offer for White that White wouldn't have stayed (now I may prefer Long but that‘s not the point). $1mm is close to the median OC/DC for a top 50 program btw, not as extravagant as it sounded even 8-10 years ago.

I don’t know if Dino is worth +1 game or -1 game but I do feel he is not a dumpster fire or elite (FHCSS was a dumpster fire imo). Given how well he runs a clean program with players we can be proud of, retains most players in an NIL world (with less NIL $$$), has been a net beneficiary of the transfer portal so far (speculation by me) means he should be given as much rope and support as possible. 1 advantage I didn’t mention above is continuity. If you give someone 8-10 years to build, learn, make adjustments you are much more likely to make incremental progress than trying to find the next +1 coach every 4-5 years. Heck sometimes you don’t even know what improvements need to be made until you run into said issues.

I hope we win what I think we will this year (8-10 games) and Dino stays with us another 5+ years until one of his assistants is ready to take over (Beck?).

 

[money3189]

Yep, the extremely hard to grasp (and frustrating) concept is that, if you throw out the top handful of elite coaches and the bottom handful of dumpster fire coaches from the P5 you are left with most coaches who are are only worth about 1 game in either direction plus another 2-3 games of luck that can run in either direction in any year(s) due to outside factors (schedule, matchups, injuries, calls, bad beats etc.).

Also much more of the quality of the head coach impacts the program outside of a dozen Saturday's a year, probably 80/20 (And this is coming from somebody as frustrated with Dino’s game day decisions as anyone). Getting good players, with the right frames/athleticism, in a solid scheme, with the right training regimen, coached by high quality coaches, fostering the right motivations (family/togetherness) outweighs by far how often we go for it on 4th down or calling too many runs or deep passes or playing the ‘wrong’ player somewhere.

Things like athletic/football infrastructure, practice/weight room facilities, housing, nutrition, staff size, staff quality/budget, fan support, location all matter much more than if you got a head coach who is average or worth 1 game above (basically the best you can ever afford unless your Bama or OSU or Clemson etc). For example, there is nobody on earth that can convince me that if Dino was given $1mm to hire an OC in 2019/20 he would have run with Lynch or Dumpster Gilbert the cowboy (or Kirk Martin for a more reasonable assistant QB coach budget). Similarly nobody can convince me that if Dino was able to match Nebraska’s offer for White that White wouldn't have stayed (now I may prefer Long but that‘s not the point). $1mm is close to the median OC/DC for a top 50 program btw, not as extravagant as it sounded even 8-10 years ago.

I don’t know if Dino is worth +1 game or -1 game but I do feel is not a dumpster fire or elite (FHCSS was a dumpster fire imo). Given how well he runs a clean program with players we can be proud of, retains most players in an NIL world (with less NIL $$$), has been a net beneficiary of the transfer portal so far (speculation by me) means he should be given as much rope and support as possible. 1 advantage I didn’t mention above is continuity. If you give someone 8-10 years to build, learn, make adjustments you are much more likely to make incremental progress than trying to find the next +1 coach every 4-5 years. Heck sometimes you don’t even know what improvements need to be made until you run into said issues.

I hope we win what I think we will this year (8-10 games) and Dino stays with us another 5+ years until one of his assistants is ready to take over (Beck?).

Man, you can’t get more detailed than that. Good points.

 

[SanDiegoCuse]

Yep, the extremely hard to grasp (and frustrating) concept is that, if you throw out the top handful of elite coaches and the bottom handful of dumpster fire coaches from the P5 you are left with most coaches who are are only worth about 1 game in either direction plus another 2-3 games of luck that can run in either direction in any year(s) due to outside factors (schedule, matchups, injuries, calls, bad beats etc.).

Also much more of the quality of the head coach impacts the program outside of a dozen Saturday's a year, probably 80/20 (And this is coming from somebody as frustrated with Dino’s game day decisions as anyone). Getting good players, with the right frames/athleticism, in a solid scheme, with the right training regimen, coached by high quality coaches, fostering the right motivations (family/togetherness) outweighs by far how often we go for it on 4th down or calling too many runs or deep passes or playing the ‘wrong’ player somewhere.

Things like athletic/football infrastructure, practice/weight room facilities, housing, nutrition, staff size, staff quality/budget, fan support, location all matter much more than if you got a head coach who is average or worth 1 game above (basically the best you can ever afford unless your Bama or OSU or Clemson etc). For example, there is nobody on earth that can convince me that if Dino was given $1mm to hire an OC in 2019/20 he would have run with Lynch or Dumpster Gilbert the cowboy (or Kirk Martin for a more reasonable assistant QB coach budget). Similarly nobody can convince me that if Dino was able to match Nebraska’s offer for White that White wouldn't have stayed (now I may prefer Long but that‘s not the point). $1mm is close to the median OC/DC for a top 50 program btw, not as extravagant as it sounded even 8-10 years ago.

I don’t know if Dino is worth +1 game or -1 game but I do feel is not a dumpster fire or elite (FHCSS was a dumpster fire imo). Given how well he runs a clean program with players we can be proud of, retains most players in an NIL world (with less NIL $$$), has been a net beneficiary of the transfer portal so far (speculation by me) means he should be given as much rope and support as possible. 1 advantage I didn’t mention above is continuity. If you give someone 8-10 years to build, learn, make adjustments you are much more likely to make incremental progress than trying to find the next +1 coach every 4-5 years. Heck sometimes you don’t even know what improvements need to be made until you run into said issues.

I hope we win what I think we will this year (8-10 games) and Dino stays with us another 5+ years until one of his assistants is ready to take over (Beck?).

This is fantastic. Well thought out.

 

[Cusefan69]

Dino wouldn't have gotten the extension and big buyout if not for 10-3.

This is true and it's also true that 99% of the people on this board wanted him extended immediately. Back in the 80s and 90s you it seemed like you had to show more than 1 year of success to get an extension be it ball player or coach. Seems like the last 15 years it's "pay me on my one good season ". I certainly was on board for rewarding Dino. I am also a believer that a new coach should be given 4 years to prove himself. Overall I am alright with what the ADJW has done to support the coach and program. I do think we need to see us go to the next level of consistency though. I am cautiously optimistic as I look at the staff, QB room, defense talent, etc.

 

[ElwoodJBlues]

I think Dino is a good program manager, but not a good coach, if that makes sense. Kids want to play for him and he is a good mentor to a lot of these young men who are desperately in need of a strong leader. He’s made some awful hires and has let some coaches/players work a little bit too freely.

However, based on what I’ve heard, he’s dealt with a lot in his time and in particular, the way he handled the end of the Gilbert era is nothing short of a miracle. I like him as a person and the face of the program, but he shows a lot of poor judgment in game day and personnel.

 

[Bulldog04]

You know I love ya brother...but you know better than most here that the coaching salary narrative about SU not wanting to pay for coaches is a board myth. SU will never set the market for coaching salaries, but they have been competitive when they need to be over the last few years under JW.

I don’t disagree I just meant if they went a different route with a new coach. And thanks for the virtual hug