Going Into Year 8, I Still Don't Know What To Think of Dino

[Chip]

I referenced the Axe podcast with Emily the other day about Dino's job security. It's not a bad listen (and it takes a lot of effort for me to listen to Axe).

They personally felt that 6-6 shouldn't be enough, but that it likely will be enough for a least a small extension. I tend to agree with the 7 win minimum because, as Dick in Michigan pointed out above, you should be able to win at least 7 regular season games against this particular schedule. I throw out bowl games as part of the record, they've become nothing more than the first spring game since there are so many opt outs.

Axe also had the point that Wildhack doesn't fire coaches. They retire. That's how he thinks it will go down if Dino wins 5 this year, but why he stays if he wins 6.

Brought up all the same points many are, that he runs a clean program. You really don't hear anything back (the Allen stuff is an outlier in my opinion). People really like him, and he looks to have his best class coming in next year. But it's not the whole story.

Personally, I'm really rooting for him. I hope the clock mgmt stuff gets worked out. Not just that he gets better about it, but stops using dumb logic to defend it. I think he has his best set of coordinators that he's had here. I hope we win at least 7 again, keep next year's class together (and find more transfers) and keep this thing moving forward.

Just really wish we could stay somewhat healthy.

 

[Scooch]

I think it’s pretty simple.

Dino has been above average at the “soft skills” part of the job. Representing the program well, maintaining generally good player behavior within the program, fundraising, dealing with the media, etc.

Dino has been below average at the “hard skills” part of the the job. Recruiting, staff hiring, player fundamentals, in game management, etc.

He’s easy to root for and I really hope he has a good season this year. Eight years is plenty of time, and at some point he’s gotta win consistently. I mean, that’s the job. There’s 8 wins just begging for the taking if he does a good job this year.

I agree that he’ll be back as long as he wins 6. Hell he may be back if he only wins 5. Personally I think anything less than 7 is grounds to be let go.

 

[elimunelson]

I think it’s pretty simple.

Dino has been above average at the “soft skills” part of the job. Representing the program well, maintaining generally good player behavior within the program, fundraising, dealing with the media, etc.

Dino has been below average at the “hard skills” part of the the job. Recruiting, staff hiring, player fundamentals, in game management, etc.

He’s easy to root for and I really hope he has a good season this year. Eight years is plenty of time, and at some point he’s gotta win consistently. I mean, that’s the job. There’s 8 wins just begging for the taking if he does a good job this year.

I agree that he’ll be back as long as he wins 6. Hell he may be back if he only wins 5. Personally I think anything less than 7 is grounds to be let go.

I think you nailed it. one caviat that someone upthread mentioned and bears repeating is the portal. I do think Dino is a port in the storm in terms of kids finding the right spot after being seduced by so many of these snake oil HC pitches. I think having someone in Syracuse with credibility, humility, and integrity makes us a signature location for the second spot. I hate writing it but we are what we are. A bridesmaid of sorts to the bigger programs. However, doing it the right way allows us to pick off some good talent that realizes that they got sold a bill of goods at a bigger school that immediately over recruits the position.

Now, it's a result oriented business and my massive beef with Dino is the game day. He's by far the worst coach I can remember at Syracuse on game day. I'd rank him below GERG there. Now GERG didn't have oodles of close games to judge him on but I feel like Dino is a drunk guy playing Madden in my frat trying to navigate fourth quarters. Hope Rocky can fix this.

I root for Dino and I can't recall a figure in Syracuse that has such high Q rankings as Dino when things simmer and we reflect on the following season or the future. in season people tend to really insert themselves into the fire dino world but he's so cool that things simmer quickly because we want to trust and root for him. It's a great trait TBH. I'm sure the team feels the same way and Wildhack/Boosters/BoT.

As for this season, I think the hot seat is sub 5 wins. No matter the narrative that'll stir up pressure. Anything above 5 i'd be shocked anything is changed. Of course a 6-0 start followed by 6 straight losses would open eyes again.

LGO

 

[orangecuse]

First of all, show me where I said "If Dino can't do it here, no one else can either."

I can't, because I never stated that you said that in the first place. What I did say, was "IF" you are one of those types..."IF" being the key word you seemingly overlooked.

Second, what are you even arguing? You want a perpetual winner but would also take someone who was fired for losing at a different P5 school?

Pretty self explanatory IMO. However, I'll try again. I'm saying from a broader perspective that Dino has never won consistently at his prior G5 level stints. Perhaps, that was because he was moving on up while his "star" (as you referred to) was still burning bright, however, since there isn't any data to support if he hadn't left those "lessor" program types, it's a fact he has no track record of consistently winning prior to SU.

We all know what he record is at the P5 level as his pier/ACC conference record simply speaks for itself IMO.

And, yes, I would take a coach who had proven consistent success at the P5 level and then hit a rough patch or whatever the circumstances may have been, etc. that caused his firing every day of the week and twice on Sunday's over a coach whom has consistently not ever possessed a proven track record of success.

 

[MikeSU02]

I referenced the Axe podcast with Emily the other day about Dino's job security. It's not a bad listen (and it takes a lot of effort for me to listen to Axe).

They personally felt that 6-6 shouldn't be enough, but that it likely will be enough for a least a small extension. I tend to agree with the 7 win minimum because, as Dick in Michigan pointed out above, you should be able to win at least 7 regular season games against this particular schedule. I throw out bowl games as part of the record, they've become nothing more than the first spring game since there are so many opt outs.

Axe also had the point that Wildhack doesn't fire coaches. They retire. That's how he thinks it will go down if Dino wins 5 this year, but why he stays if he wins 6.

Brought up all the same points many are, that he runs a clean program. You really don't hear anything back (the Allen stuff is an outlier in my opinion). People really like him, and he looks to have his best class coming in next year. But it's not the whole story.

Personally, I'm really rooting for him. I hope the clock mgmt stuff gets worked out. Not just that he gets better about it, but stops using dumb logic to defend it. I think he has his best set of coordinators that he's had here. I hope we win at least 7 again, keep next year's class together (and find more transfers) and keep this thing moving forward.

Just really wish we could stay somewhat healthy.

Highlighting something: I am really *rooting* for Dino to do well. I like Dino. I like that there are no scandals. I like that our guys seem to be good people. I like that the program is now putting more people into the NFL.

He's easy to root for. Our players are easy to root for.

But it's a results-oriented gig. And he needs to keep getting us to a bowl.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Pretty self explanatory IMO. However, I'll try again. I'm saying from a broader perspective that Dino has never won consistently at his prior G5 level stints. Perhaps, that was because he was moving on up while his "star" (as you referred to) was still burning bright, however, since there isn't any data to support if he hadn't left those "lessor" program types, it's a fact he has no track record of consistently winning prior to SU.

We all know what he record is at the P5 level as his pier/ACC conference record simply speaks for itself IMO.

And, yes, I would take a coach who had proven consistent success at the P5 level and then hit a rough patch or whatever the circumstances may have been, etc. that caused his firing every day of the week and twice on Sunday's over a coach whom has consistently not ever possessed a proven track record of success.

So what's your minimum threshold of lower than P5 success? Dino had four straight winning seasons at two different schools.

Also, you can layout any scenario and I can find someone who fits that criteria and failed at a P5 job. The point is, success has a ton of factors beyond winning record.

 

[orangecuse]

So what's your minimum threshold of lower than P5 success? Dino had four straight winning seasons at two different schools.

Also, you can layout any scenario and I can find someone who fits that criteria and failed at a P5 job. The point is, success has a ton of factors beyond winning record.

I've read here through the years that Dino had success at those aforementioned schools with "other coaches players" etc. I guess I'm in that boat when it comes to those two schools since he was never there long enough to prove otherwise. So, IMO, he doesn't have an actual track record of consistent {long(er) term} success at that level.

Jim Tressel to answer your question? Perhaps, "success" does. However, IMO, first and foremost of any head coach, especially at the P5 level whom is getting paid millions of dollars annually, nothing, again, IMO, trumps or comes close to trumping the most important criteria, and that is winning!

Let me ask you this. How many coaches do you think would still exist at a P5 level school with a pier/conference record of 19-39 and still be the head coach of that same school?

On an somewhat related matter, relative to this expansion stuff going on, etc and the overall concern of where Syracuse ends up a decade or so from now when the GOR carries far less weight, etc. What do you think other P5 conference leaders, and their powers that be, etc. think when it comes to just how "serious" Syracuse is about football when they still think it's okay/acceptable to maintain a coach with such a putrid 19-39 pier/conference record?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Now GERG didn't have oodles of close games to judge him on but I feel like Dino is a drunk guy playing Madden in my frat trying to navigate fourth quarters.

Oh come on now, that's a bit unfair.

The drunk frat guy playing Madden makes way better decisions late game.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I've read here through the years that Dino had success at those aforementioned schools with "other coaches players" etc. I guess I'm in that boat when it comes to those two schools since he was never there long enough to prove otherwise. So, IMO, he doesn't have an actual track record of consistent {long(er) term} success at that level.

Jim Tressel to answer your question? Perhaps, "success" does. However, IMO, first and foremost of any head coach, especially at the P5 level whom is getting paid millions of dollars annually, nothing, again, IMO, trumps or comes close to trumping the most important criteria, and that is winning!

Let me ask you this. How many coaches do you think would still exist at a P5 level school with a pier/conference record of 19-39 and still be the head coach of that same school?

On an somewhat related matter, relative to this expansion stuff going on, etc and the overall concern of where Syracuse ends up a decade or so from now when the GOR carries far less weight, etc. What do you think other P5 conference leaders, and their powers that be, etc. think when it comes to just how "serious" Syracuse is about football when they still think it's okay/acceptable to maintain a coach with such a putrid 19-39 pier/conference record?

I disagree with your first opinion, but so be it. On your last point, I'm not getting a discussion about that because it will go no where.

Something like Tressel's run at Youngstown St is never going to happen again. Coaches have their success and they move on - the salaries at the next level up are so much more, coaches would be crazy to not move at the first chance. North Dakota State is the perfect example - they're on their third coach in a decade.

It's well known that Syracuse painted themselves into a corner with Dino's contract extension, so it's certainly been a unique set of circumstances. But as the end of the contract looms, it seems things are getting better. So who cares what other schools would do?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I referenced the Axe podcast with Emily the other day about Dino's job security. It's not a bad listen (and it takes a lot of effort for me to listen to Axe).

They personally felt that 6-6 shouldn't be enough, but that it likely will be enough for a least a small extension. I tend to agree with the 7 win minimum because, as Dick in Michigan pointed out above, you should be able to win at least 7 regular season games against this particular schedule. I throw out bowl games as part of the record, they've become nothing more than the first spring game since there are so many opt outs.

Axe also had the point that Wildhack doesn't fire coaches. They retire. That's how he thinks it will go down if Dino wins 5 this year, but why he stays if he wins 6.

Brought up all the same points many are, that he runs a clean program. You really don't hear anything back (the Allen stuff is an outlier in my opinion). People really like him, and he looks to have his best class coming in next year. But it's not the whole story.

Personally, I'm really rooting for him. I hope the clock mgmt stuff gets worked out. Not just that he gets better about it, but stops using dumb logic to defend it. I think he has his best set of coordinators that he's had here. I hope we win at least 7 again, keep next year's class together (and find more transfers) and keep this thing moving forward.

Just really wish we could stay somewhat healthy.

I mean the AD basically stated that 6-6 IS good enough, not sure why these two continue to debate it on their podcast. I get that it's content but if Dino won 6 games for the next 5-6 years he will still be coaching here if wanted to. Raise the floor a bit, ceiling ain't moving other than once every ten years, IMO. The problem is the best two teams we have had over the past 20 years had great seniors on them, not sure given the portal and NIL that we will ever have that great senior class again but maybe I guess.

 

[Scooch]

I think you nailed it. one caviat that someone upthread mentioned and bears repeating is the portal. I do think Dino is a port in the storm in terms of kids finding the right spot after being seduced by so many of these snake oil HC pitches. I think having someone in Syracuse with credibility, humility, and integrity makes us a signature location for the second spot. I hate writing it but we are what we are. A bridesmaid of sorts to the bigger programs. However, doing it the right way allows us to pick off some good talent that realizes that they got sold a bill of goods at a bigger school that immediately over recruits the position.

Now, it's a result oriented business and my massive beef with Dino is the game day. He's by far the worst coach I can remember at Syracuse on game day. I'd rank him below GERG there. Now GERG didn't have oodles of close games to judge him on but I feel like Dino is a drunk guy playing Madden in my frat trying to navigate fourth quarters. Hope Rocky can fix this.

I root for Dino and I can't recall a figure in Syracuse that has such high Q rankings as Dino when things simmer and we reflect on the following season or the future. in season people tend to really insert themselves into the fire dino world but he's so cool that things simmer quickly because we want to trust and root for him. It's a great trait TBH. I'm sure the team feels the same way and Wildhack/Boosters/BoT.

As for this season, I think the hot seat is sub 5 wins. No matter the narrative that'll stir up pressure. Anything above 5 i'd be shocked anything is changed. Of course a 6-0 start followed by 6 straight losses would open eyes again.

LGO

I agree about the portal. It’s a net positive for us. And I think the past season has shown that. Sure, we’re gonna lose our share of Chestnuts. But the return we’ve seen is greater, IMHO.

Dino clearly is a better transfer/portal recruiter than a high school recruiter. Thankfully we’re in the era that we are, and he can take advantage of that.

Also worth noting is that Dino is 62. I know we live in a time where people think they can work high-stress jobs until they’re 80+ (spoiler: they shouldn’t and I’m sick to death of Boomers refusing to walk away) but I have to imagine this is his last P5 head coaching gig. It’s in everyone’s best interest if he wins, sticks around a few more years here at SU, and goes out on whatever we consider “on top” at this school.

 

[Chip]

I mean the AD basically stated that 6-6 IS good enough, not sure why these twocontinue to debate it on their podcast. I get that it's content but if Dino won 6 games for the next 5-6 years he will still be coaching here if wanted to. Raise the floor a bit, ceiling ain't moving other than once every ten years, IMO. The problem is the best two teams we have had over the past 20 years had great seniors on them, not sure given the portal and NIL that we will ever have that great senior class again but maybe I guess.

We have a chance to have great seniors, but it's more likely they'll be kids who transferred in, rather than kids who started here out of HS.

Although the early draft entries seem to hit us hard too, at least in the defensive backfield.

 

[007]

Over the last 10 years or so, most teams have switched from a 4-3 or 4-2-5 to a tight 3-4 or 3-3-5 defensive front. It takes away a lot of inside RPO options because all the inside gaps are covered. That forces running plays to the outside which allows time for the LB or Safety to come up and make a tackle. It also puts more speed on the field, off the LOS, making pass defense more effective. So over the last decade, the prevailing defensive scheme in D1 football has evolved to more effectively defend the spread RPO.

Briles was so successful implementing his offense because teams, from a scheme and personnel standpoint, were unprepared to defend it. It was a great way to neutralize a talent disparity, and early adopters were able to overcome a talent disadvantage with offensive scheme. Dino got here on the tail end of the era where the spread offense had a scheme advantage. Almost every team today schemes to defend an RPO offense, because that offense has become so prevalent, so we're back to the team with more talent having an advantage. Xs, Os, Jimmys, Joes...

Really good post syracuse95 I especially agree with the highlighted statement above.

I don't think this is as simple as "people have figured out the offense" as others (not you) have stated. Part of the equation that benefited DB's success prior to SU was the speed of play. It wasn't that long ago when teams were faking injuries to cope with the pace. One of the X factors for SU was how horrific the D was multiplied by the number of extra possessions they needed to defend because of the pace. The rapid 3 and outs were killers and compounded the issues with the D. Scheme (Tampa 2) and the Jimmys and Joes were also factors.

An additional X factor IMO was the OL (and water is wet). Particularly because defenses could control the LOS with a light box which neutralized a lot of the effectiveness of the RPO schemes, quick passing game, and bubble screens. And of course, there was the record number of sacks allowed when turning to the intermediate and long passing game. One of his responses was to adjust the time of possession and the advantage of the speed element was lost.

It might seem counterintuitive, but Dino's offense relies heavily on establishing the effectiveness of the inside power rushing game. When they couldn't do this even against light boxes, let alone the talent level of ACC d-lines, he was forced to adjust the O.

It now seems clear that the path to success on O depends on dynamic dual threat QBs and functional OL play. The success of this season, if GS stays healthy, will come down to the OL.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I don't think this is as simple as "people have figured out the offense" as others (not you) have stated.

It's not my opinion - it comes from people who wrote about CFB for a living and talk to active FBS coaches.

 

[007]

It's not my opinion - it comes from people who wrote about CFB for a living and talk to active FBS coaches.

From the article you wrote:

"The Baylor-inspired "Orange Is The New Fast" offense was both figured out by opposing defensive coordinators and failed to attract the speed needed to run it at a high level, prompting the offensive staff to quietly scrap the approach for somewhat more traditional tactics."

I guess I assumed that was your opinion.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

From the article you wrote:

"The Baylor-inspired "Orange Is The New Fast" offense was both figured out by opposing defensive coordinators and failed to attract the speed needed to run it at a high level, prompting the offensive staff to quietly scrap the approach for somewhat more traditional tactics."

I guess I assumed that was your opinion.

Fair. I will try and find the exact episode(s) of Split Zone Duo where this has been discussed. I wouldn't make such a strong claim if I didn't have something to back it up with.

 

[djcon57]

Highlighting something: I am really *rooting* for Dino to do well. I like Dino. I like that there are no scandals. I like that our guys seem to be good people. I like that the program is now putting more people into the NFL.

He's easy to root for. Our players are easy to root for.

But it's a results-oriented gig. And he needs to keep getting us to a bowl.

Same, like the guy, would love for him to do well.

I just keep seeing the same mistakes, but at this point I've also accepted Syracuse foorball for what it is, and I do wonder if Dino is about what we can do.

 

[tep624]

Completely agree with your thoughts. It really seems to come down to if Dino doesn’t succeed here… then who will? I think they have done a good job of getting Dino a really good staff so he can focus on being CEO. Recruiting seems to be picking up Dino is playing the portal game pretty well.

I see three issue ls that are repeated year after year: o-line sucks, too many pre-snap penalties, really really questionable time management and play calling relative to in game situation. I would love to see all three of those addressed this year.

Dino has some of the worst time management and situational game calling I’ve ever seen since he’s been here. And it still is a major problem. We’ve historically been challenged with having consistently good OL year in, year out but Dino’s short comings in the other 2 areas continue to baffle me 8 years in.

 

[SuFTW]

It's not my opinion - it comes from people who wrote about CFB for a living and talk to active FBS coaches.

A big part of it was the prior quarterback couldn’t run it and some of the OCs, or at least 1, couldn’t run it either.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Fair. I will try and find the exact episode(s) of Split Zone Duo where this has been discussed. I wouldn't make such a strong claim if I didn't have something to back it up with.

July 7, 2022 episode of Split Zone Duo at the 27 minute mark. It's a Patreon-only episode, so I will not quote it here.

 

[OburgOrange]

Didn’t Dino pride himself on game management, specifically late game situations? Prides himself in it? Worrisome

 

[Scooch]

Didn’t Dino pride himself on game management, specifically late game situations? Prides himself in it? Worrisome

Literally every coach thinks they’re good at close and late decision making. And most… aren’t.

This is because head football coaches have enough hubris to orbit the Sun.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Literally every coach thinks they’re good at close and late decision making. And most… aren’t.

This is because head football coaches have enough hubris to orbit the Sun.

It's kinda like how everyone believes they're an above average driver.

Not me though. You're taking your life in your hands riding with me. Oh, don't be fooled, the ride will be smooth as Hell. I just don't pay attention to anything.

 

[TheCusian]

I was co-piloting the Dino bandwagon with Crusty and couldn't believe when we actually got him.

He hasn't been what I expected. He was at first. He brought the unpredictability, excitement and scoring I felt we were desperate for. He understood the value of the Dome.

And then after the 10 win season he walked away from that. I don't really believe the offense got "figured out." I think we executed poorly, and backed away from it. Orange is the new slow ain't it. I'm optimistic that Beck is going to return us to prolific offense.

He does a lot of things well. We clearly have recruiting profiles we value. We get our guys on campus. We seem to navigate the portal world well so far. He's an excellent program ambassador.

He just needs to win more. Get to bowl games. Have a handful of higher profile seasons. Keep putting guys in the NFL.

These things are virtuous cycles. He's had a long time to get into those cycles. Have to maintain them. If he doesn't make a bowl this season, I'd move on.

I don't think it will come to that. But he has to make a bowl this season because the 2024 schedule looms as more challenging than 2023.

Nobody runs the Baylor offense anymore. It got stripped for parts like many systems before it. The advantage got smaller and smaller. We tried to shift with the times and run Baylor-lite w Gilbert. It didn’t work.

All of that’s to say, “figured out” is probably fairly accurate but if we want to be kinder - it’s what happens with offense that really leverages talent - the defense adjusted.

I think pivoting to Anea and Beck has been very good and the advantage has switched back to our offense vs moderately better defensive talent. The elite guys at Clemson and now maybe FSU mess with every offense.

 

[UpstateSM]

I’m not sure we can get anyone better than Dino without getting really freakin lucky and ever then he isn’t staying around long. And I love Dino and think he likes it here. He gave me the best season of my fandom by far.

So I just hope he starts making bowl games three out of four years because I think it’s far more lucky our next coach is worse than him. Unless it is someone like Jason Beck (or Tony White) who has been in the culture for years and has real experience.