Going Into Year 8, I Still Don't Know What To Think of Dino

[OttoinGrotto]

I was co-piloting the Dino bandwagon with Crusty and couldn't believe when we actually got him.

He hasn't been what I expected. He was at first. He brought the unpredictability, excitement and scoring I felt we were desperate for. He understood the value of the Dome.

And then after the 10 win season he walked away from that. I don't really believe the offense got "figured out." I think we executed poorly, and backed away from it. Orange is the new slow ain't it. I'm optimistic that Beck is going to return us to prolific offense.

He does a lot of things well. We clearly have recruiting profiles we value. We get our guys on campus. We seem to navigate the portal world well so far. He's an excellent program ambassador.

He just needs to win more. Get to bowl games. Have a handful of higher profile seasons. Keep putting guys in the NFL.

These things are virtuous cycles. He's had a long time to get into those cycles. Have to maintain them. If he doesn't make a bowl this season, I'd move on.

I don't think it will come to that. But he has to make a bowl this season because the 2024 schedule looms as more challenging than 2023.

 

[djorange1989]

I was co-piloting the Dino bandwagon with Crusty and couldn't believe when we actually got him.

He hasn't been what I expected. He was at first. He brought the unpredictability, excitement and scoring I felt we were desperate for. He understood the value of the Dome.

And then after the 10 win season he walked away from that. I don't really believe the offense got "figured out." I think we executed poorly, and backed away from it. Orange is the new slow ain't it. I'm optimistic that Beck is going to return us to prolific offense.

He does a lot of things well. We clearly have recruiting profiles we value. We get our guys on campus. We seem to navigate the portal world well so far. He's an excellent program ambassador.

He just needs to win more. Get to bowl games. Have a handful of higher profile seasons. Keep putting guys in the NFL.

These things are virtuous cycles. He's had a long time to get into those cycles. Have to maintain them. If he doesn't make a bowl this season, I'd move on.

I don't think it will come to that. But he has to make a bowl this season because the 2024 schedule looms as more challenging than 2023.

Agree with everything you say except the schedule part. 2024 is easier than this year, no P5 opponent OOC game, no Clemson. 2025 is the nightmare with Tennessee, Notre Dame, Clemson and FSU, none of which are in the JMA

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Agree with everything you say except the schedule part. 2024 is easier than this year, no P5 opponent OOC game, no Clemson. 2025 is the nightmare with Tennessee, Notre Dame, Clemson and FSU, none of which are in the JMA

Well duh, you're right and I got the schedule years mixed up.

 

[Stevenson]

You don’t know what to think?

Look at his record.

Not even mediocre

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

You don’t know what to think?

Look at his record.

Not even mediocre

If you discount the COVID year, which as I wrote had issues way beyond his control, he's 35-39. Do what you will with that.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The biggest issues I have with Babers is clock management and creating a consistent passing offense.

It "feels" like we have lost a game or two each season because of clock management.

I expected more prolific passing offenses. We threw the ball well when Dungey was the QB and averaged over 250 passing yards per game when he was here. We haven't done that since.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Thanks for sharing your article.

"But then there are Dino’s faults: excessive secrecy, questionable game management, over-reliance on coaches he knows, and inconsistent player development. A have-not like Syracuse football needs to be different and take every advantage it can. Whether Dino is doing enough is ultimately unclear."

• Excessive secrecy. I find this to be very similar to most coaches. Do you know of a program that is NOT guarded like this? Please name a couple if you do know of any.
• Questionable game management. Although I think this improved a bit last season, what happened at Clemson in 2022 was terrible; allowing the clock to run for 25 seconds before calling a timeout and leaving two timeouts on the board at the end of the game. This must continue to improve.
• Over-reliance on coaches he knows. Dino has made of couple of bad hires while at Syracuse, but would you prefer he relied on coaches he doesn't know? 2023 will be Dino's 38th year of coaching on the collegiate level. He knows more than a few coaches out there. I am glad he knew Rocky Long and I'm glad he knew Bronco Mendenhall who referred Anae and Back to him.
• Inconsistent player development. Unfortunately, this goes hand in hand with being a program that relies on 3* recruits. Not every 5* recruit pans out either, but 3* pan out less often than 4* or 5* recruits. "There's saying among coaches when it comes to recruiting, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken ." Or "great players make good coaches appear to be great." We need to raise the bar and start recruiting against ACC teams rather than MAC teams if we expect to consistently compete with ACC teams. Every year we seem to sign a couple of players who didn't have a single offer from a P5 school other than Syracuse. IMO, the lack of development has more to do with our poor recruiting than any lack of development.
  • Our 2023 high school recruiting class:
    • Only one player had an offer from Pitt.
    • No one had an offer from BC
    • No one had an offer from Clemson or FSU. If we can't recruit against them, is it reasonable to expect the team to be able to compete with these teams on the field year in and year out?
  • The 2024 high school recruiting class, so far:
    • 4 commits have an offer from Pitt.
    • 5 commits have offers from BC.
    • No commits have an offer from Clemson.
    • No commits have offers from FSU.
  • Clemson's 2023 recruiting class had 26 commits.
    • Syracuse offered 4 of those players. (We aren't even fishing in the same waters)
    • BC offered 5 of those players.
    • Pitt offered 8 of those players.
    • And the football power know as Duke offered 12 of those players.

To be clear, I'm parroting common complaints.

- I know Mike Norvell opens practices. I know there's a couple of other P5 coaches who allow it, but it's kind of a hard thing to Google to re-confirm it to myself.
- The over-reliance on coaches he knows thing is a bit of an older issue, but it's all part of the body of work - Ward's defenses were never reliable, Sterlin Gilbert was a bad hire, Lynch as OL coach, Koda Martin's dad as QB coach.
- I disagree with your point about development being lack of recruiting. It's about getting the right guys, not necessarily the ones everyone else wants. NC State and Iowa do this very well. There's no reason we can't as well.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

And then after the 10 win season he walked away from that. I don't really believe the offense got "figured out."

I addressed this. The offense he brought in got figured out and he couldn't attract the speed to run it properly anyway.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I addressed this. The offense he brought in got figured out and he couldn't attract the speed to run it properly anyway.

I don't think it got figured out. I think our Quarterbacks have been mostly bad since Dungey graduated. The WR's have been an issue too.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I don't think it got figured out. I think our Quarterbacks have been mostly bad since Dungey graduated. The WR's have been an issue too.

What I've heard and read is that no one runs the Baylor offense any more because defensive coordinators figured out how to contain it.

 

[Cusefan0307]

What I've heard and read is that no one runs the Baylor offense any more because defensive coordinators figured out how to contain it.

Fair enough. Devito being a bust really set the program back. His first year as starter was supposed to be the season everything took off.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Fair enough. Devito being a bust really set the program back. His first year as starter was supposed to be the season everything took off.

Dungey's feet hid many, many issues.

 

[orangenauburn]

I'd say he has done enough to come close to officially stabilizing the program, barring a 5-7 or worse year this year. If that happens he is gone and the uncertainty remains moving forward.

If he gets another bowl this year, next year should be one too based on roster make up and schedule (way too early to tell, I know).

Looking at this year and next year's schedule, they should be 7-8 win seasons.

If that happens he gets us three winning seasons in a row and things for the program are stable and we are showing signs of being consistently respectable (like the programs we view as our peers).

2019 was such a missed opportunity. And 2021 had so much heartache with some tough close losses (let's be honest, because of Dino).

Had 2021 been a bowl season, we'd probably be considered a low key breakout candidate by the press with the talent returning.

But that's where Dinos faults and warts keep that from being a reality. He fumbled 2019 and he fumbled 2021. Had those two years been bowl years, the program and Dinos status are not in doubt.

If he fumbles this year he is done and who knows what the next staff will do and what challenges the program will face moving forward.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I'd say he has done enough to come close to officially stabilizing the program, barring a 5-7 or worse year this year. If that happens he is gone and the uncertainty remains moving forward.

If he gets another bowl this year, next year should be one too based on roster make up and schedule (way too early to tell, I know).

Looking at this year and next year's schedule, they should be 7-8 win seasons.

If that happens he gets us three winning seasons in a row and things for the program are stable and we are showing signs of being consistently respectable (like the programs we view as our peers).

2019 was such a missed opportunity. And 2021 had so much heartache with some tough close losses (let's be honest, because of Dino).

Had 2021 been a bowl season, we'd probably be considered a low key breakout candidate by the press with the talent returning.

But that's where Dinos faults and warts keep that from being a reality. He fumbled 2019 and he fumbled 2021. Had those two years been bowl years, the program and Dinos status are not in doubt.

If he fumbles this year he is done and who knows what the next staff will do and what challenges the program will face moving forward.

My thoughts exactly in half the words.

 

[Bayside44]

Dungey's feet hid many, many issues.

So did McNabb and Donnie Mac and everyone else.

A pocket guy is never going to consistently work here.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

So did McNabb and Donnie Mac and everyone else.

A pocket guy is never going to consistently work here.

The lens of this is only Babers and his offense.

Edit: Nassib did well behind a strong offensive line in 2012. So Syracuse can have really solid offense lines.

 

[Bayside44]

The lens of this is only Babers and his offense.

Edit: Nassib did well behind a strong offensive line in 2012. So Syracuse can have really solid offense lines.

We had an NFL first round pick and Doug Marrone who is an NFL OL coach running it.

We can luck out here and there but its a long way from being Iowa or Wisconsin. Need a QB with wheels IMO.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I addressed this. The offense he brought in got figured out and he couldn't attract the speed to run it properly anyway.

I don't believe that. I believe we failed to execute and walked away from it.

I don't think it got figured out. I think our Quarterbacks have been mostly bad since Dungey graduated. The WR's have been an issue too.

Yep.

What I've heard and read is that no one runs the Baylor offense any more because defensive coordinators figured out how to contain it.

See, but how? What have they actually done differently? What innovation occurred on defense that every (or at least most) programs on our schedule were able to plug into their existing defensive philosophy that "figured out" the offense? And even though nobody runs that offense anymore supposedly, they all still devote practice time scheming to take it away?

It doesn't make sense, and we never hear about it. I think it's just something that gets said.

What makes way more sense is some mix of it not clicking with DeVito and the offensive line after Dungey, we couldn't protect him anyway, gave starts to limited backup QBs, the defense needed help so we got conservative, we found something in Tucker, and Shrader wasn't a guy at that point that was going to throw the ball all over.

We changed.

 

[syracuse95]

We had an NFL first round pick and Doug Marrone who is an NFL OL coach running it.

We can luck out here and there but its a long way from being Iowa or Wisconsin. Need a QB with wheels IMO.

I agree that our best years have involved mobile QBs, because we struggle getting a solid OL. I still don't understand how BC has historically been able to build really solid O-lines, but we can't.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I don't believe that. I believe we failed to execute and walked away from it.

Yep.

See, but how? What have they actually done differently? What innovation occurred on defense that every (or at least most) programs on our schedule were able to plug into their existing defensive philosophy that "figured out" the offense? And even though nobody runs that offense anymore supposedly, they all still devote practice time scheming to take it away?

It doesn't make sense, and we never hear about it. I think it's just something that gets said.

What makes way more sense is some mix of it not clicking with DeVito and the offensive line after Dungey, we couldn't protect him anyway, gave starts to limited backup QBs, the defense needed help so we got conservative, we found something in Tucker, and Shrader wasn't a guy at that point that was going to throw the ball all over.

We changed.

We did fail to execute and walked away. Babers couldn't get the pieces to run the system at an ACC level and pivoted. You'd rather cling to something that didn't work?

And I will try and find the exact episodes (plural) where Steven Godfrey and Richard Johnson talk about how the Baylor scheme got neutralized by defenses. It's the natural chess match of offense versus defense - something new works, defenses figure out how to defend it, offenses pivot and try something new.

 

[Bayside44]

I agree that our best years have involved mobile QBs, because we struggle getting a solid OL. I still don't understand how BC has historically been able to build really solid O-lines, but we can't.

They seem to get the big uglies from northeast Jesuit high schools...fits when you think about it.

 

[syracuse95]

See, but how? What have they actually done differently?

Over the last 10 years or so, most teams have switched from a 4-3 or 4-2-5 to a tight 3-4 or 3-3-5 defensive front. It takes away a lot of inside RPO options because all the inside gaps are covered. That forces running plays to the outside which allows time for the LB or Safety to come up and make a tackle. It also puts more speed on the field, off the LOS, making pass defense more effective. So over the last decade, the prevailing defensive scheme in D1 football has evolved to more effectively defend the spread RPO.

Briles was so successful implementing his offense because teams, from a scheme and personnel standpoint, were unprepared to defend it. It was a great way to neutralize a talent disparity, and early adopters were able to overcome a talent disadvantage with offensive scheme. Dino got here on the tail end of the era where the spread offense had a scheme advantage. Almost every team today schemes to defend an RPO offense, because that offense has become so prevalent, so we're back to the team with more talent having an advantage. Xs, Os, Jimmys, Joes...

 

[SoBristol]

Going into year 8,
We have 3 transfers at qb
We have 3 transfers at RB behind Allen
We have transfers in the secondary in Johnson, Clark, Simmons, Farmer, Gould, Bellamy, Oliver and 2 others from Santa Barbara CC
We have transfers in the OL in Bleich, Reed, Wohlabaugh, Petry, Bradford, and More

Can’t remember any other season with so many imports from other programs. Portal made a big difference for our program (net of losses in Linton, Geer, Chestnut and Carter).

And I believe our roster is deeper than it has been. So maybe we can win some games in November? And then people will feel better about Babers and the program. Because so much depends on the roster.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Meet the AD's expectations and keep your job. Bowl game this year and I look for a small extension for Dino at the end of the year. I think the University is very realistic as to where their position is amongst the current landscape of college football. And yeah they may be able to have a miracle season once in a while. 5-7 wins is about where they will be most years moving forward

 

[MikeSU02]

Meet the AD's expectations and keep your job. Bowl game this year and I look for a small extension for Dino at the end of the year. I think the University is very realistic as to where their position is amongst the current landscape of college football. And yeah they may be able to have a miracle season once in a while. 5-7 wins is about where they will be most years moving forward

I want Dino to succeed. I think he can keep us in the 5-8 win territory (using 8 as the upper bound counting a bowl win and some solid regular seasons).

They have to keep the program's head above water in terms of financial support.

And, to your point, we have to be real on what it would mean to fire Babers and what the pool of applicants and who we could actually get looks like.

I think in an ideal state Babers consistently gets us to a bowl game, gets to retire on his own terms and Beck would take over.