Guys it’s only year 4, Dino just

[TheCusian]

Dungey, Strickland, Neal, majority of the OL, Custis, Slayton, Fredrick, Whitner, Scoop. That's a lot of guys and most of our best players.

It wasn't a majority of the OL. It was 2 guys - Conway and Roberts.

Most of our best players are usually seniors.

It's still like 10% of the team. That means you won 10 games with 90% "your guys" - while taking the previous regimes guys who were freshman and won 4 games their first year - to a place the previous regime never could.

Finally, this talking point fails in that very few coaches have 100% of "their guys" for a majority of their time on the job. A ten win season is good pretty much every time, at every job..

 

[orangepassion]

Why didn’t Shafer win with Shafer players?

A few reasons:
1) Shafer coached like a meathead-punting from the opponent side of the field on makeable 4th downs
2) His players who played well for Babers were mostly Freshmen at the time.
3) Dungey injury. Would have been interesting to see how they would have done his last year if Dungey stays healthy.

Controversial take: By the end of this year, his pure Won-Loss record won't be much worse than Babers after 4 years. I still believe Dino's a better coach overall, but our lack of recruiting the last year and a half, penalties, and sacks allowed past 4 years is frightening.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Some of our fanbase sucks.
We have numerous posters who just want to be negative in the game threads and get off on it.
It’s a joke.

Pretty simple solution. Figure our who your list of posters is that just want to lob grenades and have no real interest in contributing. Get rid of those posters.

I nuked Franco, Kowbelkat, OrangeinBoston, Tbone and a few others and it is amazing how much more interesting back and forth the threads seem to have...

 

[orangepassion]

It wasn't a majority of the OL. It was 2 guys - Conway and Roberts.

Most of our best players are usually seniors.

It's still like 10% of the team. That means you won 10 games with 90% "your guys" - while taking the previous regimes guys who were freshman and won 4 games their first year - to a place the previous regime never could.

Finally, this talking point fails in that very few coaches have 100% of "their guys" for a majority of their time on the job. A ten win season is good pretty much every time, at every job..

Adams, Conway, Roberts. That's 3/5 and a majority. Dungey was our best and most indispensable player as a Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior.
This staff hasn't brought in and developed one good O-Lineman in 4 years. There's a reason we keep bringing in grad transfers there. I don't take pleasure in this and Babers is the guy I wanted for the job.
Just being intellectually honest here. He won with Shafer's guys being most of the key guys.
10 wins is still an accomplishment, but that wasn't the argument.

 

[690West]

Hot Damn, Barrel has a gift. 12 word post leads to 13 page thread!

 

[Sudano]

I have thought about HCDB's pre-season "warning" to fans that "This is the 2019 team, not the 2018 team." To me he seemed to be saying that even though many of the players are the same, each team has a different personality and chemistry.?, I thought "How could that be?"

As I watched the offensive struggles this year, I have thought it was possible that the 2018 success might have really been 80% Dungey. He kept opposing defenses off balance. They were so worried about him that other areas got less attention and ended up looking and playing better than they actually were.

As to Pee Wee football, my boys played for a youth club in Bethesda that played at a high level. By the time they and their team mates got to high school after four or five years of experience, their football IQ's were extremely high. Even the kids who didn't go on to play in high school had a second level appreciation for the game. They might be able to understand and spot the cause of breakdowns before someone who had never played.

I don' think by him pointing out that this years team had to develop its own identity that he knew or thought it would be such a show. He was just pointing out this year's team had to win on its own, and not lose every game of a competitive nature in such an inept manner.

 

[PhatOrange]

Adams, Conway, Roberts. That's 3/5 and a majority. Dungey was our best and most indispensable player as a Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior.
This staff hasn't brought in and developed one good O-Lineman in 4 years. There's a reason we keep bringing in grad transfers there. I don't take pleasure in this and Babers is the guy I wanted for the job.
Just being intellectually honest here. He won with Shafer's guys being most of the key guys.
10 wins is still an accomplishment, but that wasn't the argument.

It does make sense though that you're talking about a 10 win season led by seniors and not sophomores. Dungey, Strickland, Slayton, Conway, Roberts, Custis, Whitner all seniors. and Scoop/Shy juniors. Underclassman still dominate the current depth chart. Being intellectually honest Babers developed those kids into winners since he got them as sophomores.

The OL, Babers has had to supplement with grad transfers because it takes several years to develop your offensive lineman, you know that. It's not really fair to say he hasn't developed any good OL yet. None of his guys are seniors. Servais is a RJr, Pat Davis a True Jr (who looked good Sat). Heckle a RJr. Mike Clark a RJr. The other 7 Babers' OLineman are Redshirt Sophomores or younger. In a couple of years the OL could be pounding people with a senior QB. We're never going to be a re-load program.

The OL against FSU and BC will start 2 freshman tackles. I mean that's something in an of itself. Bergeron is the first true freshman to start at tackle since Quinn Ojinnaka in 2002.

 

[SmilinBob]

Bergeron brings a certain attitude that I like.

 

[TheCusian]

A few reasons:
1) Shafer coached like a meathead-punting from the opponent side of the field on makeable 4th downs
2) His players who played well for Babers were mostly Freshmen at the time.
3) Dungey injury. Would have been interesting to see how they would have done his last year if Dungey stays healthy.

Controversial take: By the end of this year, his pure Won-Loss record won't be much worse than Babers after 4 years. I still believe Dino's a better coach overall, but our lack of recruiting the last year and a half, penalties, and sacks allowed past 4 years is frightening.

Dino has been a better recruiter and it’s not that close.

 

[TheCusian]

Adams, Conway, Roberts. That's 3/5 and a majority. Dungey was our best and most indispensable player as a Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior.
This staff hasn't brought in and developed one good O-Lineman in 4 years. There's a reason we keep bringing in grad transfers there. I don't take pleasure in this and Babers is the guy I wanted for the job.
Just being intellectually honest here. He won with Shafer's guys being most of the key guys.
10 wins is still an accomplishment, but that wasn't the argument.

ah, forgot about Adams. Not totally sure I’d count him as one of our best players last year or this year. Yes the OL development has been bad.

I’ll take Jackson over Custis. Trill over every DB ever recruited by SS. Same with Cisco. Same with Iffy. Same with Adams. Both DE’s. I still think DeVito ends up better than ED.

 

[AAM62]

this is the culmination of Dino's recruiting failures. Even bailey said they lost out on 4 or 5 current P5 starters on the OL that would have changed the landscape of this year. Honestly, these dudes just dont have what it takes.

 

[bigmike]

Bergeron brings a certain attitude that I like.

Yes, yes, yes. The 5 games he starts this year are going to set him up to kick some tail over the following 3 seasons. He seems to enjoy doing that - right up to the whistle.

 

[qdawgg]

this is the culmination of Dino's recruiting failures. Even bailey said they lost out on 4 or 5 current P5 starters on the OL that would have changed the landscape of this year. Honestly, these dudes just dont have what it takes.

I’m not positive that’s entirely fair.

It’s concerning that we haven’t gotten some bigger players which many thought would happen because they would want to play in Babers system and for Babers. It’s also concerning that there wasn’t more of an uptick in recruiting after a 10 win season.

The 2nd part concerns me the most.

If you’re going after big name, highly recruited players you’re going to miss out on a lot of them. Even the big boy programs do. Read any SEC fan page and they’ll lament players they’ve lost in recruiting. So it’s unfair to blame that on poor recruiting because it happens to every team trying to go after big fish. It does concern me we haven’t landed almost any of those big fish though.

I think we’ll know better in the next year or two whether DB and a staff he puts together can recruit at a higher level. Even at year 4 I’m not sure that question can be answered based on a lot of the roadblocks DB had to face recruiting here.

 

[Townie72]

ah, forgot about Adams. Not totally sure I’d count him as one of our best players last year or this year. Yes the OL development has been bad.

I’ll take Jackson over Custis. Trill over every DB ever recruited by SS. Same with Cisco. Same with Iffy. Same with Adams. Both DE’s. I still think DeVito ends up better than ED.

"I still think DeVito ends up better than ED."

Whooooaa!

Talk about belief without evidence!

I hope he does have a better career thn Dungey becuase that would be very good for SU.

But there's a huge difference between the two.

Dungey was a force in a college game. And he did a lot of it on his own.

In order to be effective, Tommy Devito has to have a good supporting cast around him. There's little he can do by himself. He needs a good OL. He needs RBs that can run and block. And he needs receivers that can get open and catch the ball.

If that all comes together, Devito's got a good chance to be better than ED. But, if it doesn't ...

 

[Cusefan0307]

Some of our fanbase sucks.
We have numerous posters who just want to be negative in the game threads and get off on it.
It’s a joke.
Criticize the coach, criticize specific plays and penalties, criticize play calls.

If you don’t believe in Dino then go all in and say what you want to happen.

no different than when Hopkins went 4-5 in Boeheim absence and the board helped run him out of town.

 

[Scooch]

Dino has been a better recruiter and it’s not that close.

He certainly has. However, the question really isn't if Babers is a better recruiter than Shafer, that's not a terribly high bar to clear. The question is if recruiting is good enough to compete at the top of the ACC. Jury is out on that one.

 

[Scooch]

"I still think DeVito ends up better than ED."

Whooooaa!

Talk about belief without evidence!

I hope he does have a better career thn Dungey becuase that would be very good for SU.

But there's a huge difference between the two.

Dungey was a force in a college game. And he did a lot of it on his own.

In order to be effective, Tommy Devito has to have a good supporting cast around him. There's little he can do by himself. He needs a good OL. He needs RBs that can run and block. And he needs receivers that can get open and catch the ball.

If that all comes together, Devito's got a good chance to be better than ED. But, if it doesn't ...

Obviously they are completely different QBs, but I feel about DeVito a similar way as I felt about Drew Bledsoe in the tail end of his Pats tenure. I recall explaining to someone at that time that Drew could still be good, but he needed a strong OL, good WRs, and a competent running game. Then I realized that there are a lot of QBs who can be effective if they have a strong OL, good WRs and a competent running game.

Needless to say, what separates the effective from the great is what they do when the OL breaks down, the WRs are pedestrian, or the running game ain't clicking.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

"I still think DeVito ends up better than ED."

Whooooaa!

Talk about belief without evidence!

I hope he does have a better career thn Dungey becuase that would be very good for SU.

But there's a huge difference between the two.

Dungey was a force in a college game. And he did a lot of it on his own.

In order to be effective, Tommy Devito has to have a good supporting cast around him. There's little he can do by himself. He needs a good OL. He needs RBs that can run and block. And he needs receivers that can get open and catch the ball.

If that all comes together, Devito's got a good chance to be better than ED. But, if it doesn't ...

I do not think DeVito will end up better than Dungey. He did have a redshirt year to benefit but if you look at Ws and Ls accounted for and QB rating, they have been similar through their first two seasons. I would guess that they will be similar after 3 years as well. What I do not see is that SR year bump. It is possible I suppose but IMO highly unlikely.

 

[qdawgg]

Obviously they are completely different QBs, but I feel about DeVito a similar way as I felt about Drew Bledsoe in the tail end of his Pats tenure. I recall explaining to someone at that time that Drew could still be good, but he needed a strong OL, good WRs, and a competent running game. Then I realized that there are a lot of QBs who can be effective if they have a strong OL, good WRs and a competent running game.

Needless to say, what separates the effective from the great is what they do when the OL breaks down, the WRs are pedestrian, or the running game ain't clicking.

I think you nailed it which is why I’ve said numerous times we don’t know if TD is going to be like Jay cutler. He looks the part in practice and makes some great throws but I think his arm talent alone is blinding some people’s ability to analyze. He may end up being great and even just really good would be more than enough for this offense. I’m not convinced he has enough of skills at this point.

 

[Alsacs]

Obviously they are completely different QBs, but I feel about DeVito a similar way as I felt about Drew Bledsoe in the tail end of his Pats tenure. I recall explaining to someone at that time that Drew could still be good, but he needed a strong OL, good WRs, and a competent running game. Then I realized that there are a lot of QBs who can be effective if they have a strong OL, good WRs and a competent running game.

Needless to say, what separates the effective from the great is what they do when the OL breaks down, the WRs are pedestrian, or the running game ain't clicking.

DeVito is getting Andrew Robinson 2007 beatings out there.
The 2007 OL was so bad it got Robinson killed and after that year he became shell shocked and couldn’t get it back.
Same thing happened to Tom Savage at Rutgers but he took 3 years and 2 transfers to turn it around.

DeVito has talent but the beatings he has taken has left him shell shocked and he won’t throw the ball away.

 

[TheCusian]

this is the culmination of Dino's recruiting failures. Even bailey said they lost out on 4 or 5 current P5 starters on the OL that would have changed the landscape of this year. Honestly, these dudes just dont have what it takes.

you’re a good judge of freshman OL? Rare skill around here

 

[qdawgg]

DeVito has talent but the beatings he has taken has left him shell shocked and he won’t throw the ball away.

I’m literally saying this out of curiosity and not to be jerk. If you were getting hit all the time and sometimes really fast on some blitzes, wouldn’t you throw the ball away as fast as you can and not hold onto it to get sacked/hit? He’s had more time to throw the last two games and he’s not letting the ball go even when he could, even just to throw it at someone’s feet.

 

[TheCusian]

Obviously they are completely different QBs, but I feel about DeVito a similar way as I felt about Drew Bledsoe in the tail end of his Pats tenure. I recall explaining to someone at that time that Drew could still be good, but he needed a strong OL, good WRs, and a competent running game. Then I realized that there are a lot of QBs who can be effective if they have a strong OL, good WRs and a competent running game.

Needless to say, what separates the effective from the great is what they do when the OL breaks down, the WRs are pedestrian, or the running game ain't clicking.

I don’t think he’s thrown a pass this year with even a mediocre OL. I also don’t think ED ever had a line this bad.

People judging a QBs career after he gets hit this much is a fools errand.

There were throws vs FSU that I don’t think Eric could make.

 

[TheCusian]

He certainly has. However, the question really isn't if Babers is a better recruiter than Shafer, that's not a terribly high bar to clear. The question is if recruiting is good enough to compete at the top of the ACC. Jury is out on that one.

I don’t even think that is up for that much of a debate - but for the OL.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

There were also missed throws that half this board could make, just ask Taj.