Hate to say it... | Syracusefan.com

Hate to say it...

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But I'm feeling really blue about our prospects for the upcoming season and in a broader context the current tack of the program. I've been on these boards for as long as they've been around and I've been a huge diehard fan of the program since '73. Since the close of the season and with the couple whiffs we've had recruiting I have not had any semblance of optimism about the direction we're headed and it's the first time EVER that I haven't been able to see some daylight on the horizon.

I've seen that others have posted that we aren't done yet with our '17 class but I think it's pretty safe to say there aren't many, if any PTP'ers out there still available. With Hops departure and the announcement that JB is going to stay on for ... well, who knows how long, I would have thought that there would be a net positive from that development in that we do not have the same level of uncertainty, which arguably plays a role in attracting recruits.

But is it really a net/net positive? Or does it just delay the inevitable and prolong the period before there can be a substantive program reset? It's impossible to say how things would have gone had Hop stayed on and taken over the program after next year but speaking for myself, I thought that would be a good thing for the program in the long run.

It's become apparent that we are not only having difficulty attracting the occasional 5 star player but are also seemingly missing on the kids we identify as "must get" players. Now that we are in the ACC we have lost many of the traditions that were associated with Big East play, the long standing and storied rivalries... the tournament in the Garden and being viewed upon as one of the best teams in our conference. Now... ??? It now seems that we cannot recruit on the same level as more than a couple teams in our conference. And last year's experiment with 5th year transfers unfolded in such fashion that I think most will agree is not the solution.

I'm sure you could make a case that there isn't much significant difference between employing the services of a 5th year transfer and a one and done. But in the end it's really something that is done out of necessity because of a lack of continuity in recruiting philosophy which includes they kids you seek out and the balance you strike between highly rated kids and program type players who will develop over the course of the collegiate career and provide the program with stability. There is a buzz and excitement which is injected into the program when a 5 star player is landed. I can't help but feel that the 5th year transfer, no matter how skilled, is in some way a retread or "sloppy 2nds in comparison with a highly rated freshman.

I feel bad about the fact that I can't bring myself to get excited about our upcoming season. I feel bad about the fact that I don't find myself clicking on the link for these message boards. It's like I just don't want to hear that we've missed out on another coveted player because one of the blue blood programs swoops in at the 11th hour and 59th hour and puts out an offer which is immediately seized upon by the prospective recruit ... after we've been waiting on pins and needles for a year or more. That sucks.

I suppose there is the chance that next years season will coalesce into a feisty team that could make some noise come March. But it seems infinitely more likely that we could be bad in a way that we have never been bad in the entire JB era. To me that's unthinkable... yet here I am having that dance across my brainpan. I feel shame to admit that I think... or rather , feel like that. I also know that if programs like Villanova can emerge as one of the top teams in the Nation that Syracuse should be able to do that as well...no?

But the lingering thought I have is that even though we have gotten the assertion that JB is going to be at the helm of the program for the foreseeable future, perhaps we have missed out on a chance to recharge the program with Hopkins coming in with his boundless enthusiasm and breathing new life into our storied program.

And before anyone wants to rip me for coming on here and sharing my thoughts about the team and program I have loved for all of my adult life... I'm still going to pull myself together once the dog days of summer are upon us and take a few deep breaths and log on to Syracusefan.com and root and cheer with all my being for Syracuse Basketball. It will always be like that for me. I love Syracuse Basketball more than any other team or sport. That will never change. I just want the best for Syracuse Basketball and I want 5 star kids wanting to put that Orange uniform on and step out on the floor of the Dome with pride and intensity and and a chip on their shoulder for Cuse. That's the way it's been and should always continue to be.
 
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But I'm feeling really blue about our prospects for the upcoming season and in a broader context the current tack of the program. I've been on these boards for as long as they've been around and I've been a huge diehard fan of the program since '73. Since the close of the season and with the couple whiffs we've had recruiting I have not had any semblance of optimism about the direction we're headed and it's the first time EVER that I haven't been able to see some daylight on the horizon.

I've seen that others have posted that we aren't done yet with our '17 class but I think it's pretty safe to say there aren't many, if any PTP'ers out there still available. With Hops departure and the announcement that JB is going to stay on for ... well, who knows how long, I would have thought that there would be a net positive from that development in that we do not have the same level of uncertainty, which arguably plays a role in attracting recruits.

But is it really a net/net positive? Or does it just delay the inevitable and prolong the period be for there can be a substantive program reset? It's impossible to say how things would have gone had Hop stayed on and taken over the program after next year but speaking for myself, I thought that would be a good thing for the program in the long run.

It's become apparent that we are not only having difficulty attracting the occasional 4 star player but are also seemingly missing on the kids we identify as "must get" players. Now that we are in the ACC we have lost many of the traditions that were associated with Big East play, the long standing and storied rivalries... the tournament in the Garden and being viewed upon as one of the best teams in our conference. Now... ??? It now seems that we cannot recruit on the same level as more than a couple teams in our conference. And last year's experiment with 5th year transfers unfolded in such fashion that I think most will agree is not the solution.

I'm sure you could make a case that there isn't much significant difference between employing the services of a 5th year transfer and a one and done. But in the end it's really something that is done out of necessity because of a lack of continuity in recruiting philosophy which includes they kids you seek out and the balance you strike between highly rated kids and program type players who will develop over the course of the collegiate career and provide the program with stability.

I feel bad about the fact that I can't bring myself to get excited about our upcoming season. I feel bad about the fact that I don't find myself clicking on the link for these message boards. It's like I just don't want to hear that we've missed out on another coveted player because one of the blue blood programs swoops in at the 11th hour and 59th hour and puts out an offer which is immediately seized upon by the prospective recruit ... after we've been waiting on pins and needles for a year or more. That sucks.

I suppose there is the chance that next years season will coalesce into a feisty team that could make some noise come March. But it seems infinitely more likely that we could be bad in a way that we have never been bad in the entire JB era. To me that's unthinkable... yet here I am having that dance across my brainpan. I feel shame to admit that I think... or rather , feel like that. I also know that if programs like Villanova can emerge as one of the top teams in the Nation that Syracuse should be able to do that as well...no?

But the lingering thought I have is that even though we have gotten the assertion that JB is going to be at the helm of the program for the foreseeable future, perhaps we have missed out on a chance to recharge the program with Hopkins coming in with his boundless enthusiasm and breathing new life into our storied program.

And before anyone whats to rip me for coming on here and sharing my thoughts about the team and program I have loved for all of my adult life... I'm still going to pull myself together once the dog days of summer are upon us and take a few deep breaths and log on to Syracusefan.com and root and cheer with all my being for Syracuse Basketball. It will always be like that for me. I love Syracuse Basketball more than any other team or sport. That will never change. I just want the best for Syracuse Basketball and I want 5 star kids wanting to put that Orange uniform on and step out on the floor of the Dome with pride and intensity and and a chip on their shoulder for Cuse. That's the way it's been and should always continue to be.
It's not as bad as all that. we missed out on two kids. One, because Knox chose Kentucky over Duke. The other, because we allowed ourselves to be played. It's one recruiting year. Plus, I think two of our commits are very good. I think Marek will be too if we are fortunate enough to land him.
 
It's not as bad as all that. we missed out on two kids. One, because Knox chose Kentucky over Duke. The other, because we allowed ourselves to be played. It's one recruiting year. Plus, I think two of our commits are very good. I think Marek will be too if we are fortunate enough to land him.
Thanks Dasher... you have no idea how much I needed to read that. It's appreciated my friend!:)
 
"I can't help but feel that the 5th year transfer, no matter how skilled, is in some way a retread or "sloppy 2nds in comparison with a highly rated freshman."

I agree with the tone of most of your post. But, how many freshmen were as productive as Andrew White last year? Granted, we'd have to 'strike gold' each year, but, that's not so different from getting a one-and-done freshman.

That said, yeah, it's not a sustainable strategy, and yes, we've lost a lot by not being the headline team in our conference any longer. Limbo with coaching... We definitely need a consistent influx of top 25 freshman to compete in the league. A lot of people seem to feel that we can get top 100s and JB's genius and The System will get us to Final Fours, and seemingly the regular season doesn't matter... I don't believe/trust in that. We need talent, and i'm dismayed and "blue," as you put it, that we seem to have given up on going after the elite talent because it's a forgone conclusion that they're going to Kentucky or Duke. I hate that attitude, despite how 'practical' it feels at this point.

But, we need to change. And evolve. We have to face that we're not as attractive as we used to be, and get serious about changing the factors that lead to those types of perceptions. Being known as 'the zone team,' and having a number of years where we were expected to be a slow-paced, low-scoring team — not helping. The Locker Room thing... Our 'townie/blue-collar' design aesthetic... JB's 'contract,' etc. We need a Theo Epstein type of resurgence...

I'm trusting that Brissett is going to be better than expected, right out of the box. That Sidibe is going to be pretty good in a year or so. That Chukwu is going to develop. That Moyer is going to be a force. That Franklin comes back mature-r and with a lot to prove. I'm not sure all of that will lead to more than another .500 ACC team, but there is a strong possibility of more than that. Not a lot more, but more. Plus who ever else we get. We didn't get our leading scorer until August last season. If we can add a 12-15 pt scorer from the grad transfers, that will likely be what we would have expected from Tucker, if not more. A one-year stopgap instead of a two-year measure, but we'll do it again next year if we strike out on impactful HS kids. And rinse and repeat until... Until.
 
Guys, I don't think we have enough threads about how sad the state of the program is. We need at least 15 more.
If we stayed in the Big East we wouldn't be having any of these discussions. Boeheim saw this coming
 
If we stayed in the Big East we wouldn't be having any of these discussions. Boeheim saw this coming

We play D-1 football. We wouldn't have stayed in the Big East.

Better the ACC than the AAC.

I wish things worked out differently, and the Big East was able to stay strong in both sports. Sucks. But it doesn't make sense to wish for something that really doesn't exist anymore(a BE that we could be a member of).
 
To the original poster - when I open a thread and see the first posting being this long I would normally hit "back". However, this one seemed to catch my interest. Whether it was simply your good use of the English language or your obvious love of the program (just as I have) I don't really know.

A lot of us obviously have the similar concerns for this season, including myself, but I'm a little more optimistic and do see us getting into the dance. However, I don't see us making any real noise if we get in.

Just keep cheering in hopes of getting us back to glory days. Hey, my Oakland Raiders have come back, so why not my other favourite team?
 
We play D-1 football. We wouldn't have stayed in the Big East.

Better the ACC than the AAC.

I wish things worked out differently, and the Big East was able to stay strong in both sports. Sucks. But it doesn't make sense to wish for something that really doesn't exist anymore(a BE that we could be a member of).
I was not aware of why we left I assume the BE football schools were being courted by football conferences and we quickly jumped on board for ACC football money or be left behind. I assume you mean this? We were so far behind in football but with Babers here he is a man with a plan who's fun to play for and a pied piper if good recruits. We can without question be a top ACC basketball team but we are facing new dynamics and need to adjust accordingly
 
If we stayed in the Big East we wouldn't be having any of these discussions. Boeheim saw this coming
And let me be clear that Boeheim saw it coming and was not happy about it and not that it was his fault
 
There has been a big bandwagon effect of negativity on this board since we started out last year in such a dismal way. I just don't get it or see a trend.
To some it is negativity, to others it is recognition of fundamental changes. I have been a diehard fan since 1971 and even during our darkest days when the paper ran a 4 part series on how we could not recruit, I was full of optimism. This is the first time that I am no longer optimistic. There is a world of difference between being an alpha in the best conference and having that conf. be a NE conf. and being an also ran in the best conf. which happens to be a SE conf. Some people expect the greatness of the ACC to rub off on us. Unfortunately, it does not work like that. In summary, we are no longer as attractive to recruits as we were in the old days, and that is a big problem.
 
Somehow this board has turned having a HOF coach into a negative. Part of the narrative here pushed by the same group of posters relentlessly. I wouldn't get too down about what you read on this board.
Some people are just as intent on pushing the "narrative" that a HOF coach coaches at HOF levels consistently from year 1 to year infinity. And that having a HOF coach means all is well. And that using the word "narrative" (as often as possible) means that whatever comment it's being used to describe is somehow inherently specious.
 
Some people are just as intent on pushing the "narrative" that a HOF coach coaches at HOF levels consistently from year 1 to year infinity. And that having a HOF coach means all is well. And that using the word "narrative" (as often as possible) means that whatever comment it's being used to describe is somehow inherently specious.
That's because that is exactly what he has done, with very few down years. And even in those down years, he's taken the team to FFs. Some people don't freak out and start screaming the sky is falling just because they heard a podcast. Sorry you don't like the term narrative.
 
Two kids the coaches really wanted. Not two kids the board really wanted.
Think he means; Lonnie Walker, Brandon Randolph, even Matt Coleman, Hami Diallo, Billy Preston, probably others...
 
I am tired of the rationalization that there is no shame because Duke & Kentucky swooped in at midnight & stole recruits. In the past that simply would not have happened. I am not saying we could out recruit Duke & Kentucky if they wanted a kid that we wanted from the get go. But in the past we would have been able to hold onto recruits that were Syracuse leans where we had a one to two year head start. If truth be told, it would not have even been an issue because we would have had the commitment much sooner in the first place.

As OP said, there is something wrong, and it will not be an easy fix. I hate to say it, but as much as Jimmy has earned the right to leave on his own terms, I do not believe that he will be the one to lead us back to true glory. Those in charge will have to make a difficult decision between deciding how much we owe Jimmy and doing what will bode best for the future of the program. I do not presume to have that answer.

Is the issue as simple as replacing Jimmy with the right successor or does not go much more deeply in terms of not having sufficient facilities as some others have posted ? I think the truth lies in the middle, ie, we would be more attractive with updated facilities, but still our facilities are better than those of many other programs that are having success.

We should be at the top of the 1B destination list, and presently we are not. There are many here that i think have their head in the sand in not accepting that things have changed. Doesn't mean that there aren't (difficult) answers to be found, but we can't find answers without first recognizing that we are no longer the BE honchos, but instead are a mediocre mid-pack ACC program that needs to find ways to improve.
 
It's not as bad as all that. we missed out on two kids. One, because Knox chose Kentucky over Duke. The other, because we allowed ourselves to be played. It's one recruiting year. Plus, I think two of our commits are very good. I think Marek will be too if we are fortunate enough to land him.

Add the two recruiting misses to three straight 13+ loss seasons and the roster's big-time question marks and I think the trepidation is valid.

Battle is a very good player. Thompson is above average offensively. After that, everyone is a question mark, in my opinion. And that's not good.
 
There has been a big bandwagon effect of negativity on this board since we started out last year in such a dismal way. I just don't get it or see a trend.

There were other things going on behind the scenes that caused a lot of concern and negativity. It wasn't all about the product on the court. Last spring things took a very strange turn and then we had the strangest recruting cycle ever. Hmmm

That said if we get the two kids I'm hoping for we will be better than everyone here thinks. Still need to get moving on 18 and 19 classes though.
 
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I would suggest that everyone go back and check the freshman on the roster for the last 20 years. All those "Golden" recruiting classes just don't exist. We had maybe 3 awesome classes with most not having a top 25 player. As others have said, it's not so much the number of players we have missed on as it is that JB's success relies on experienced rosters with balance. No coach has suffered more from the one and done than JB, imo.
 
Battle- NBA next
Moyer- Ohio Gatorade player of year
Brissett- Best player in Canada
Taurean- high ceiling- NBA one day
Washington- very capable in helping Brissett become top player and true point guard(will surprise)
Sidbe- great agility for size. Knack for anticipating opponents , can shoot, doesn't foul, aggressive
Chucku- great length, agile for size, an unknown
Howard- could be great but unknown

Add Dolejac has handle, agile, athletic, hungry, aggressive, drives hoop with any opportunity, can run the floor and finish, plays in tougher than high school league and succeeds. Shooting said to be good but would be gravy

Add last 2017 player, a guard need the right one

I really don't believe our team is that bad. These are talented kids that if they gel early who knows? 2 missing pieces- that's all
 
Battle- NBA next
Moyer- Ohio Gatorade player of year
Brissett- Best player in Canada
Taurean- high ceiling- NBA one day
Washington- very capable in helping Brissett become top player and true point guard(will surprise)
Sidbe- great agility for size. Knack for anticipating opponents , can shoot, doesn't foul, aggressive
Chucku- great length, agile for size, an unknown
Howard- could be great but unknown

Add Dolejac has handle, agile, athletic, hungry, aggressive, drives hoop with any opportunity, can run the floor and finish, plays in tougher than high school league and succeeds. Shooting said to be good but would be gravy

Add last 2017 player, a guard need the right one

I really don't believe our team is that bad. These are talented kids that if they gel early who knows? 2 missing pieces- that's all
I appreciate yor enthusiasm!:)
Our teams surprise us when they are under the radar.
 
I appreciate yor enthusiasm!:)
Our teams surprise us when they are under the radar.
That's true. If we can have a good non conf beginning and build some cohesion and confidence things happen. Confidence builds confidence and when you're perceived as an underdog you get that chip on your shoulder that you have something to prove. That may be us next year
 

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