here comes temple

[All4SU]

Let's see, there'll be:

7 new: SDSU, Boise, Houston, SMU, UCF, Memphis, Navy
1 returning: Temple
4 recent adds: Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, Yukon
1 original: Rutgers

The NNBE will be poised to either go to 14/16 or absorb another defection (Louisville).

JAB's comment applies here as well... this isn't the same Big East that we were used to.

I guess I knew all of that. But seeing it in that form is still just astonishing. What a cluster$%&* the BE offices let this conference become.

 

[All4SU]

It seems to me that getting Boise State was a great move.

I guess you can draw conclusions based on rumors.

But rumors are just rumors - not fact.

At this point, I think the BE is doing a very solid job building the football conference.

As far as what will happen in five years - nobody knows.

Nobody suspected five years ago that Nebraska would end up in the Big Ten or Colorado in the Pac 12.

Five years in college football these days is a lifetime away - so applying that time line to the BE really means nothing at this point.

OPA, I know you sincerely believe this. But I really just don't agree. What they have "created" is out of necessity. And it is Conference USA II.

 

[OrangePA]

OPA, I know you sincerely believe this. But I really just don't agree. What they have "created" is out of necessity. And it is Conference USA II.

Yes, of course, what they have done they have done out of necessity.

Who is debating their motive?

I certainly am not.

The BE is doing what it has to do - having lost first, Miami, BC and Va Tech, then Pitt and SU and TCU.

And right now, Louisville, Cincy, Rutgers, Boise State, SD State, So. Florida, University of Houston and others is much better than Conference USA.

I know how much so many of you want to trash the BE. I know how much so many of you want it to fail. I know how so many of you relish the chance to criticize how the conference has reacted to various situations beyond its control. I know that since SU is no longer a member of the conference so many of you feel that we must hate the BE just like we hate anything or anybody that is not SU.

I know all of that.

I still don't understand any of it.

 

[SU2NASA]

I guess I knew all of that. But seeing it in that form is still just astonishing. What a cluster$%&* the BE offices let this conference become.

This is what the conference could have been:

Syracuse
Penn State
Boston College
West Virginia
Pittsburgh
Miami
Virginia Tech
Rutgers
Temple

 

[OrangePA]

I guess I knew all of that. But seeing it in that form is still just astonishing. What a cluster$%&* the BE offices let this conference become.

"Let this conference become."

Are you really suggesting that the BE is responsible for the following: (1) D'Antonio leaves Cincy; (2) Kelly leaves Cincy; (3) Petrino leaves Louisville; (4) Edsall leaves UConn; (5) SU fires Pasqualoni; (6) Pittsburgh makes HC change after HC change; (7) Miami, Va Tech and BC bolt for the ACC?

The fundamental problem in my opinion has been lack of stability. The Conference has never had a sustained period for growth and development.

What would you have done to prevent the constant change?

I obviously do not know the inner workings of the conference.

But in any organization instability - constant reshuffling - does not promote growth.

Had the original BE Football Conference remained intact, it would be a very good conference and a very lucrative one in my judgment.

So, I think again it is unfair to blame BE management for what has developed.

 

[All4SU]

"Let this conference become."

Are you really suggesting that the BE is responsible for the following: (1) D'Antonio leaves Cincy; (2) Kelly leaves Cincy; (3) Petrino leaves Louisville; (4) Edsall leaves UConn; (5) SU fires Pasqualoni; (6) Pittsburgh makes HC change after HC change; (7) Miami, Va Tech and BC bolt for the ACC?

Absolutely not. But, I am suggesting that the conference failed on an epic level in not convincing their basketball partners that Penn State needed to be admitted to the conference in the late 80s, prior to their bolt to the B10. Do that, and Miami, VT, WVU, SU, Pitt and BC are probably all still BE members. That was the first domino. Bringing in Miami, VT were good moves. With a solid FB conference, the BE could have been more of a selector -- letting a school like USF develop as a program before bringing them in. Certainly not having to resort to going across country to bring in San Diego State or Boise or SMU. They had the chance to create a real all-sports conference, and failed leadership let that opportunity slip away.

I agree they have done the best they can with what they've got. But they lost everyone of importance. And that is not a good thing.

 

[TexanMark]

OPA I agree with some of your points...I don't want to see the BE fail but I think it will fail. Human Nature among these other conferences is to see the BE as a wounded fish...the remaining strong branded programs will be picked away (Louisville, UConn, Rutgers, Cincy, Boise and maybe Houston) as long as the TV numbers come in. All this is for TV...and this TV model we see today could change in 10 years.

We should be happy we at least landed in the ACC...it is a workable league for us from the geography/academic POV. The jury is still out on the cultural aspect to going to the ACC. I still want to see UConn (I know not the popular opinion here) and Notre Dame join us in the ACC. Personally, I think WVU was crazy for leaving to the B12 as their fans have no close schools to travel too. I do understand why they did it though.

 

[OrangePA]

Absolutely not. But, I am suggesting that the conference failed on an epic level in not convincing their basketball partners that Penn State needed to be admitted to the conference in the late 80s, prior to their bolt to the B10. Do that, and Miami, VT, WVU, SU, Pitt and BC are probably all still BE members. That was the first domino. Bringing in Miami, VT were good moves. With a solid FB conference, the BE could have been more of a selector -- letting a school like USF develop as a program before bringing them in. Certainly not having to resort to going across country to bring in San Diego State or Boise or SMU. They had the chance to create a real all-sports conference, and failed leadership let that opportunity slip away.

I agree they have done the best they can with what they've got. But they lost everyone of importance. And that is not a good thing.

Oh please.

I have never heard the same story told about why Penn State didn't join the BE thirty years ago.

One story from Paterno, one story from Jake, and other stories from others.

Suggesting that what we have seen over the last eight years - including situatins involving teams that were not even on the radar screen in 1980 - Miami and Va Tech - is responsible for what has now happening is I think very unfair and wholly without merit.

The SW Conference in 1980 was one of the great all sports conferences and certainly a great football conference.

And by 1996 it was gone.

I think your hindsight is 20-5 and that kind of ability to see is just not realistic.

 

[orange79]

Oh please.

I have never heard the same story told about why Penn State didn't join the BE thirty years ago.

One story from Paterno, one story from Jake, and other stories from others.

Suggesting that what we have seen over the last eight years - including situatins involving teams that were not even on the radar screen in 1980 - Miami and Va Tech - is responsible for what has now happening is I think very unfair and wholly without merit.

The SW Conference in 1980 was one of the great all sports conferences and certainly a great football conference.

And by 1996 it was gone.

I think your hindsight is 20-5 and that kind of ability to see is just not realistic.

Wow. You're right. The conference is blameless. I see it now. Just a poor, innocent victim that could have done nothing to prevent what happened.

 

[All4SU]

70s. Eastern Indies want an all sports conference. PSU balks because they don't want to include football.

Late 70s. BE is formed as a basketball conference, leaving PSU out.

Early/Mid 80s. PSU lobbies for entry into the BE, with support from several FB playing schools, including SU. Vote goes against PSU.

Late 80s. PSU accepts membership in the Big10. Big East FB schools finally convince BE leadership to move forward on a FB arm of the BE, and invite Miami, VT, and others to join.

That hindsight is absolutely 20/20. At that point in time, the BE had an opportunity to be a legitimate all-sports conference. Now maybe the blame is on the FB schools for not breaking away. Or on the BB schools for not foreseeing how football would be a primary concern. I don't know. But it started to unravel. The BE went from being in the driver's seat, to being in the back seat. Every move from that point on was reactive. We went from the possibility of a true Northeaster (+Miami) Conference, to a continuation of fragmentation. Thankfully, SU has navigated these changes with success. I guarantee you that behind closed doors, UConn and Rutgers are not happy with this situation. While it's true that they could have success, it is still a patchwork conference with the only commonality among these schools being a desire to fight for survival.

 

[Moontan]

And right now, Louisville, Cincy, Rutgers, Boise State, SD State, So. Florida, University of Houston and others is much better than Conference USA.

Program Point of Origin:


Boise: WAC -> MWC
Cincinnati: C-USA
Houston: C-USA
Louisville : C-USA
Memphis: C-USA
Navy: Independent
SDSU: MWC
SMU: WAC -> C-USA
Temple: Big East -> Independent -> MAC
TCU: C-USA -> MWC
UCF: MAC -> C-USA
USF: C-USA
Yukon: Independent

Conference of Origin:
C-USA: 7
MWC: 2
Independent: 2
MAC: 1

That's 7 of of the 12 that have joined the BE since 2003 that have come from C-USA. (8 of 13 of you include TCU and its transitions.)
How one cannot admit that this is C-USA II (though some have had time to mature in the BE) is beyond me.

Where They Were in 2003:
Big East: Rutgers, Temple
C-USA: Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, Memphis, Houston, TCU
MWC: SDSU
MAC: UCF
WAC: Boise, SMU
Independent: Yukon, Navy

 

[SU2NASA]

"Let this conference become."

Are you really suggesting that the BE is responsible for the following: (1) D'Antonio leaves Cincy; (2) Kelly leaves Cincy; (3) Petrino leaves Louisville; (4) Edsall leaves UConn; (5) SU fires Pasqualoni; (6) Pittsburgh makes HC change after HC change; (7) Miami, Va Tech and BC bolt for the ACC?

The fundamental problem in my opinion has been lack of stability. The Conference has never had a sustained period for growth and development.

What would you have done to prevent the constant change?

I obviously do not know the inner workings of the conference.

But in any organization instability - constant reshuffling - does not promote growth.

Had the original BE Football Conference remained intact, it would be a very good conference and a very lucrative one in my judgment.

So, I think again it is unfair to blame BE management for what has developed.

They're responsible for 1) rejecting Penn State, 2) having to resort to Louisville and Cincinnati after Va Tech, Miami, and BC leaving, 3) giving the basketball schools and ND too much power and rejecting a media deal which would have kept the conference together.

 

[shantydaze]

Are you really suggesting that the BE is responsible for the following: (1) D'Antonio leaves Cincy; (2) Kelly leaves Cincy; (3) Petrino leaves Louisville; (4) Edsall leaves UConn; (5) SU fires Pasqualoni; (6) Pittsburgh makes HC change after HC change; (7) Miami, Va Tech and BC bolt for the ACC?

The fundamental problem in my opinion has been lack of stability. The Conference has never had a sustained period for growth and development.

What would you have done to prevent the constant change?

I obviously do not know the inner workings of the conference.

But in any organization instability - constant reshuffling - does not promote growth.

Had the original BE Football Conference remained intact, it would be a very good conference and a very lucrative one in my judgment.

So, I think again it is unfair to blame BE management for what has developed.

I agree the lack of stability is/was the problem with the BE. It created a situation in which the football schools were a lot of the head coaching jobs were seen as a stepping stone, as opposed to a destination.

The question, therefore, is what, if anything, the BE management could have done to create additional stability. As football became more and more popular and lucrative for conferences, the organizational structure of the BE of the Conference was flawed and caused some of the instability. Football and basketball provide the Conference and its schools most of their revenue. By creating a conference where some schools play basketball, but not football, the interests of the schools do not align and there is not a stable relationship between all of the schools. In effect, the BE is two separate conferences - a football conference and a basketball/non-revenue sports conference.

The second problem with the BE was unequal revenue sharing. I recall reading an article about why Miami decided to move from the BE to the ACC. One of the biggest reasons was unequal revenue sharing. When Miami was doing well, playing for national championships, this was not a problem because it demanded the largest share of the pie. When it went on probation, though, it realized it was hard to run a stable athletic program when the amount of revenue received was not guaranteed. This same issue caused the recent problems in the Big 12.

It should be no surprise a conference founded on a flawed and unstable premise was not able to remain intact. BE management failed to take steps to address this issue when it became apparent college football would become more lucrative than college basketball. How could it though? For the football schools, the best option to keep the BE together would have been to jettison the basketball onlies and adopt equal revenue sharing. This was not in the best interest of the basketball schools though.

 

[SU2NASA]

Program Point of Origin:


Boise: WAC -> MWC
Cincinnati: C-USA
Houston: C-USA
Louisville : C-USA
Memphis: C-USA
Navy: Independent
SDSU: MWC
SMU: WAC -> C-USA
Temple: Big East -> Independent -> MAC
TCU: C-USA -> MWC
UCF: MAC -> C-USA
USF: C-USA
Yukon: Independent

Conference of Origin:
C-USA: 7
MWC: 2
Independent: 2
MAC: 1

That's 7 of of the 12 that have joined the BE since 2003 that have come from C-USA. (8 of 13 of you include TCU and its transitions.)
How one cannot admit that this is C-USA II (though some have had time to mature in the BE) is beyond me.

Where They Were in 2003:
Big East: Rutgers, Temple
C-USA: Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, Memphis, Houston, TCU
MWC: SDSU
MAC: UCF
WAC: Boise, SMU
Independent: Yukon, Navy

It's a conference of high mid-majors that deserves the same type of money that CUSA gets.

 

[Scooch]

The challenges the Big East has faced all go back to the idiotic decision to let schools like Seton Hall and Providence keep Penn State out of the conference.

Now there is no guarantee that Penn State wouldn't have left for the Big Ten anyway. But that decision would have been MUCH more difficult, both to do and to sell to their fans, had PSU already been in the BE.

As soon as that Supreme Court ruling in the early 80s paved the way for schools and conferences to bypass the NCAA and negotiate TV deals on their own people knew that football was going to rise in influence. SU, BC and Pitt had been squawking to the BE for several years in the 80s that they may need to leave the BE to join a football conference. There is ample evidence of a proposal for a new all-sports league being created with those 3, other independents and members of the Metro Conference.

None of this was a surprise to the BE brass. But hoops was going gangbusters and they weren't proactive. Only when PSU joined the B10, and SU, BC and Pitt threatened to leave, did the BE finally captitulate to forming a football conference. But without PSU, and with the hybrid membership that gave outsized influence to non-football playing schools (in relation to revenue generating capabilities), the league was always doomed to break apart.

So yeah, the BE could have done much more, and they did not.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Ironically, one of Tranghese's proposed solutions to the football problem was a discussion with the ACC to take SU, BC, and Pitt as "football only" members.

 

[All4SU]

Only when PSU joined the B10, and SU, BC and Pitt threatened to leave, did the BE finally captitulate to forming a football conference.

I don't know what this means, but it sounds provocative and salacious.

 

[Scooch]

Ironically, one of Tranghese's proposed solutions to the football problem was a discussion with the ACC to take SU, BC, and Pitt as "football only" members.

True. And the ACC laughed it off, probably thinking "if we want those schools, we'll go get those schools".

 

[sufan]

Oh please.

I have never heard the same story told about why Penn State didn't join the BE thirty years ago.

One story from Paterno, one story from Jake, and other stories from others.

Suggesting that what we have seen over the last eight years - including situatins involving teams that were not even on the radar screen in 1980 - Miami and Va Tech - is responsible for what has now happening is I think very unfair and wholly without merit.

The SW Conference in 1980 was one of the great all sports conferences and certainly a great football conference.

And by 1996 it was gone.

I think your hindsight is 20-5 and that kind of ability to see is just not realistic.

--------------

No need to go back to ancient history: Nothing prevents PSU from joining Pitt, SU, UMD, VT, Miami and so on in the ACC now except:

PSU is a perfect fit for the Big 10 with huge state schools, huge football attendance, huge revenue and shared CIC research focus.

If PSU wasn't Big 10 team 11, they would certainly have been Big 10 team 12.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The challenges the Big East has faced all go back to the idiotic decision to let schools like Seton Hall and Providence keep Penn State out of the conference.

Now there is no guarantee that Penn State wouldn't have left for the Big Ten anyway. But that decision would have been MUCH more difficult, both to do and to sell to their fans, had PSU already been in the BE.

As soon as that Supreme Court ruling in the early 80s paved the way for schools and conferences to bypass the NCAA and negotiate TV deals on their own people knew that football was going to rise in influence. SU, BC and Pitt had been squawking to the BE for several years in the 80s that they may need to leave the BE to join a football conference. There is ample evidence of a proposal for a new all-sports league being created with those 3, other independents and members of the Metro Conference.

None of this was a surprise to the BE brass. But hoops was going gangbusters and they weren't proactive. Only when PSU joined the B10, and SU, BC and Pitt threatened to leave, did the BE finally captitulate to forming a football conference. But without PSU, and with the hybrid membership that gave outsized influence to non-football playing schools (in relation to revenue generating capabilities), the league was always doomed to break apart.

So yeah, the BE could have done much more, and they did not.

One of the things I found most surprising was in reading all the conference meeting minutes from around the time of the 2003 raid, was the distinct impressions I got that (a) Jake's influence was second only to Dave Gavitt, and at the time that Tranghese was nominally in charge, he was really just an employee, not really a leader, despite how he has been portrayed in the media, and (b) we very nearly broke away to form a football conference separate from the hoops schools in 2003, even after we got screwed by the Gov. of VA on the ACC invitation; so this has been simmering for a decade or more.

 

[IthacaMatt]

--------------

No need to go back to ancient history: Nothing prevents PSU from joining Pitt, SU, UMD, VT, Miami and so on in the ACC now except:

PSU is a perfect fit for the Big 10 with huge state schools, huge football attendance, huge revenue and shared CIC research focus.

If PSU wasn't Big 10 team 11, they would certainly have been Big 10 team 12.

I think that Penn State, in its heart of hearts, would prefer to be in an East Coast conference. I still don't feel like they are a great fit in the Big 10. The money and prestige are great, but they don't really have a rival, after all this time.

 

[Scooch]

One of the things I found most surprising was in reading all the conference meeting minutes from around the time of the 2003 raid, was the distinct impressions I got that (a) Jake's influence was second only to Dave Gavitt, and at the time that Tranghese was nominally in charge, he was really just an employee, not really a leader, despite how he has been portrayed in the media, and (b) we very nearly broke away to form a football conference separate from the hoops schools in 2003, even after we got screwed by the Gov. of VA on the ACC invitation; so this has been simmering for a decade or more.

Yep, and even well before 2003. A couple months back the Sports Business Journal ran a piece that showed how Jefferson Pilot (or maybe Raycom) had put forth a proposal in 1989/90 for a 16-team, east coast, all-sports league that included SU, BC and Pitt among others (FSU, Miami, Louisville, GaTech). Ultimately the BEFC was formed, and FSU joined the ACC, but it was a serious possibility backed by a then-powerful media company.

Which is why the BE brass constantly whining about being "raided" and "taken by surprise" both in 2003 and now in 2011/12 is pure bunk. They knew for a good DECADE before 2003 that schools had seriously considered leaving. And over that decade they really did nothing substantial to improve the stability of the league.

 

[TexanMark]

--------------

No need to go back to ancient history: Nothing prevents PSU from joining Pitt, SU, UMD, VT, Miami and so on in the ACC now except:

PSU is a perfect fit for the Big 10 with huge state schools, huge football attendance, huge revenue and shared CIC research focus.

If PSU wasn't Big 10 team 11, they would certainly have been Big 10 team 12.

Not so...I think Penn State would've been happy being the "Texas" of a Big East.

 

[All4SU]

Not so...I think Penn State would've been happy being the "Texas" of a Big East.

PSU is a perfect fit for the Big10. But I agree with you, Mark. PSU would have been very happy continuing to be the big fish in the East, if the money was at all close to comparable.

 

[Orangeyes]

Check his stats.

Walter Washington had big games against many teams.

He ran and threw very well that whole season.

In 2004 Washington's average gain per carry was 4.o
Against SU that day he averaged 6.3
In 2004 he averaged 80 yards a game rushing, take out that SU game and it's 70 yards
Against SU that day he rushed for 184 yards, 104 yards above his average
In 2004 he averaged 1.3 TD's per game rushing
Against SU that day he ran for 3 TD's nearly 2 more than his average

In conclusion he ran the ball much better against us than he did against Virginia (19-37), Maryland (15-75), Florida A&M (21-119), Toledo (22-67), Bowling Green (5-minus 17), Pitt (23-82) , Rutgers (27-67), UConn (20-84), West Virginia (21-117) and Boston College (21-73).

SU was his biggest game of the season rushing and touchdowns rushing