hey defenders of Roy

[HOFCeluck]

Didn't Guthridge make it to the Final Four in 2/3 of his seasons as a head coach? I believe he was also National Coach of the year one year as well.

Yeah...and a big part of why the program went down hill was his "recruiting"

 

[HOFCeluck]

Since 2003 3 final fours and 1 title. Some still think JB is a bad coach.

Right. And those people are dumb.

 

[81South]

Forget about the coaches for a minute. I think the Nova kids outclassed the Carolina kids last night. The way they defended and took away Carolina's interior game was amazing. After the first half I was sure Carolina would feed their bigs all second half...so I watched the interior closely and guys just weren't open to pass to. When they did get the ball they were challenged at the basket.

Both the primary and help defense was special. Jay gets credit for teaching the defense but the Nova kids executed it with a chip on their shoulder and really took UNC out of what they wanted to do. The better team won last night.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Since 2003 3 final fours and 1 title. Some still think JB is a bad coach.

No one thinks Boeheim is a "bad" coach. No one.

If you mean "overrated," or "not great/elite," that's not the same thing.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

give me an break. how many touches did Meeks/Hicks/Johnson get in the 2nd half? They had Nova is serious foul trouble and he let his guys just keep jacking outside shots. If he had utilized his size/talent advantage just a teeny bit in that game his team wins going away. The game was close at the end despite his ineptitude.
good gawd is hilarious how people need to rush to the defense of dudes like Roy who are just not very good at their job

Man alive. Seriously? "good gawd is hilarious how people need to rush" to 'bash' "dudes like Roy" who earned a No. 1 seed and took a team to the National Championship, and came within a miracle of winning. Again. How is your need to diminish him any different than the 'need' to defend him? Personally, i find far more grace and valor in defending someone we don't care about than in hacking on someone, but hey — maybe that's your bag and it boosts you in some way. Whatever.

Your 'arguments' sorta assume Villanova had nothing to do with the outcome. As if Carolina could just impose its will. Nova had players, too. And they were fully aware of the obvious strategies you think should have been employed. Nova was a '1.5' seed, and you give them no credit.

Carolina wasn't the juggernaut people like Kenny would have the masses believe. They weren't an all-time great team. Expecting them to roll over everyone is just silly, especially when they were up against a Nova team that was absolutely rolling through the entire tournament.

Is Bill Self also a hack coach? Nova beat them, too. Is Izzo 'bad at his job?' He 'did worse' than Roy this year. Your math just doesn't add up.

 

[andyw715]

For many UNC fans the twice a year meeting with Duke has similar meaning as a NC game.

X'a and O's lost it for this game in the same way X's and O's lost the Duke game @UNC

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Bad coaches don't win two titles and go to eight final fours. Bad coaches do what Bill Guthridge and Matt Doherty did.

Guthridge took the team to 2 Final Fours in 3 seasons and was a Naismith Coach of the Year. I'm thinking you kind of made our point.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Guthridge took the team to 2 Final Fours in 3 seasons and was a Naismith Coach of the Year. I'm thinking you kind of made our point.

Like I said above...then he laid down the foundation for an 8-20 team.

But yeah not my best comparison.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

williams 1st title was with doherty's players

roy williams should have more than 2 titles, his teams are STACKED every year.

This ^^ - all day every day.

How many NBA players has he had over the years, and he only has 2 titles?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Man alive. Seriously? "good gawd is hilarious how people need to rush" to 'bash' "dudes like Roy" who earned a No. 1 seed and took a team to the National Championship, and came within a miracle of winning. Again. How is your need to diminish him any different than the 'need' to defend him? Personally, i find far more grace and valor in defending someone we don't care about than in hacking on someone, but hey — maybe that's your bag and it boosts you in some way. Whatever.

Your 'arguments' sorta assume Villanova had nothing to do with the outcome. As if Carolina could just impose its will. Nova had players, too. And they were fully aware of the obvious strategies you think should have been employed. Nova was a '1.5' seed, and you give them no credit.

Carolina wasn't the juggernaut people like Kenny would have the masses believe. They weren't an all-time great team. Expecting them to roll over everyone is just silly, especially when they were up against a Nova team that was absolutely rolling through the entire tournament.

Is Bill Self also a hack coach? Nova beat them, too. Is Izzo 'bad at his job?' He 'did worse' than Roy this year. Your math just doesn't add up.

Yes, Self is a hack. With the talent he gets he also should have way more titles. Izzo doesn't get nearly the talent, but makes great use of what he does get.

 

[longtimefan]

Like I said above...then he laid down the foundation for an 8-20 team.

But yeah not my best comparison.

Guthridge didn't have much chance on the recruiting trail. He was an old man when he got the promotion, and the kids knew he was not long for the job. UNC recruits itself, but even the Tar Heels aren't going to get kids when they don't know who the head coach will be during their careers.

He probably should have gone off on his own 20 years earlier, but he was loyal to Smith.

 

[pearl31]

Man alive. Seriously? "good gawd is hilarious how people need to rush" to 'bash' "dudes like Roy" who earned a No. 1 seed and took a team to the National Championship, and came within a miracle of winning. Again. How is your need to diminish him any different than the 'need' to defend him? Personally, i find far more grace and valor in defending someone we don't care about than in hacking on someone, but hey — maybe that's your bag and it boosts you in some way. Whatever.

Your 'arguments' sorta assume Villanova had nothing to do with the outcome. As if Carolina could just impose its will. Nova had players, too. And they were fully aware of the obvious strategies you think should have been employed. Nova was a '1.5' seed, and you give them no credit.

Carolina wasn't the juggernaut people like Kenny would have the masses believe. They weren't an all-time great team. Expecting them to roll over everyone is just silly, especially when they were up against a Nova team that was absolutely rolling through the entire tournament.

Is Bill Self also a hack coach? Nova beat them, too. Is Izzo 'bad at his job?' He 'did worse' than Roy this year. Your math just doesn't add up.

Valor, eh? And grace, too?

 

[br801]

Yes and Doherty took those players to the NIT.

And wrt to your second paragraph well, one final four every ten years, one title in forty years, etc. But I'm sure it's totally different with Boeheim for some reason.

Or maybe it's just really hard to win a national title by a six game single elimination tournament.

It is hard. Bluebood program Kansas has three NCAA titles to show for all of their great teams and Final Four appearances.

 

[Dave85]

Hey do we find it necessary to bash other Coaches, teams and players? Does it make you feel better? That was a great game.

It's the only thing that prevents us from attacking each other.

 

[Dave85]

boeheim has coached 20 mcdonalds all americans at cuse since it started in 1977. since roy took over for carolina in 2004 hes had 26 mcdonalds all americans. is that a good enough reason to hold roy williams to a different standard?

since 2004 - roy williams 26 mcdonalds all americans, jim boeheim 8.

My best basketball coaching season was this year when I was giving the dregs of the draft and we ended up finishing 3rd in our league after going 0-4. It was a lot more fun than coaching the CYO team with all the travel players.

I think what JB does with his talent is pretty amazing. He's a very laid back coach. It's like if players do not step up and take responsibility for their efforts he lets them. And then they just don't get playing time. He's very good at allowing players to figure it out and then get them to maximize their personal efforts and becoming their best. It's very subtle but very effective. G is a great example of JB's coaching style. He didn't like the kid but did nothing but sing his praises after what G did with his opportunity.

 

[Doc5120]

Yes, Self is a hack. With the talent he gets he also should have way more titles. Izzo doesn't get nearly the talent, but makes great use of what he does get.

You say Williams and Self should have more titles. Only 1 guy can win a title each year. And if they should have more titles, should Calipari and Coach K have more titles? After all, they're getting the elite of the elite talent year after year. It's much more difficult than people make it out to be. Not only do you have to be very good, you also need a little bit of luck. Some people are killing these guys. I don't think it's fair. They've won a lot of tournament games and made deep runs. Only one guy can win each year. I wouldn't put Roy Williams or Bill Self in my top 5 coaches, but I think they're very good coaches.

 

[HOFCeluck]

You say Williams and Self should have more titles. Only 1 guy can win a title each year. And if they should have more titles, should Calipari and Coach K have more titles? After all, they're getting the elite of the elite talent year after year. It's much more difficult than people make it out to be. Not only do you have to be very good, you also need a little bit of luck. Some people are killing these guys. I don't think it's fair. They've won a lot of tournament games and made deep runs. Only one guy can win each year. I wouldn't put Roy Williams or Bill Self in my top 5 coaches, but I think they're very good coaches.

Aggreed. I'm having a hard time seeing the logic here. Self is a hack because he's not as good as Izzo? Izzo is like a top 3 coach right now.

 

[br801]

You say Williams and Self should have more titles. Only 1 guy can win a title each year. And if they should have more titles, should Calipari and Coach K have more titles? After all, they're getting the elite of the elite talent year after year. It's much more difficult than people make it out to be. Not only do you have to be very good, you also need a little bit of luck. Some people are killing these guys. I don't think it's fair. They've won a lot of tournament games and made deep runs. Only one guy can win each year. I wouldn't put Roy Williams or Bill Self in my top 5 coaches, but I think they're very good coaches.

There obviously have been many very good to great coaches through the years, but as you say, only one can win each year, and a lot has to go right for that to happen. Quite often, the best teams and best coaches don't end up with the trophy, so using NCAA titles as the primary measure of success for coaches is silly, IMO.

 

[Doc5120]

Aggreed. I'm having a hard time seeing the logic here. Self is a hack because he's not as good as Izzo? Izzo is like a top 3 coach right now.

It pains me to say it, but for my money, Izzo is the best coach in the country. I know they lost in the 1st rd this year, but that guy gets a lot out of his players. And more often than not, MSU finds their way into a FF.

 

[Ward]

You say Williams and Self should have more titles. Only 1 guy can win a title each year. And if they should have more titles, should Calipari and Coach K have more titles? After all, they're getting the elite of the elite talent year after year. It's much more difficult than people make it out to be. Not only do you have to be very good, you also need a little bit of luck. Some people are killing these guys. I don't think it's fair. They've won a lot of tournament games and made deep runs. Only one guy can win each year. I wouldn't put Roy Williams or Bill Self in my top 5 coaches, but I think they're very good coaches.

This might sound weird and like it doesn't make sense but I think you can still be a real good coach while also underachieving.

Roy Williams teams that have won championships have been absolutely LOADED. The team with Hansbrough that won could have let a fan coach that team in the tournament and it wouldn't have mattered. He's also had teams that were very talented and not done a whole lot with them. He's been fortunate that he somehow gets a roster full of McDonalds AA's that stay a year or two longer than most guys in their position and then when he has a group of upperclassmen blue chips he wins. The years where they're younger he typically underachieves with talent most coaches would die for.

Calipari 100% should have more than 1 championship with the talent and teams he's had. Last year's Final Four against Wisconsin Bo Ryan coached circles around him down the stretch. He had a team of Wall, Bledsoe, Cousins, Patterson and they lost to WVU in E8 because Calipari and crew were clueless against WVU's zone.

It's really hard to win a national championship and these guys are real good coaches but I think it is definitely fair to say they have underachieved given the talent they had to work with. They're great recruiters recruiting to a great brand but have underachieved with results on the floor.

 

[Doc5120]

This might sound weird and like it doesn't make sense but I think you can still be a real good coach while also underachieving.

Roy Williams teams that have won championships have been absolutely LOADED. The team with Hansbrough that won could have let a fan coach that team in the tournament and it wouldn't have mattered. He's also had teams that were very talented and not done a whole lot with them. He's been fortunate that he somehow gets a roster full of McDonalds AA's that stay a year or two longer than most guys in their position and then when he has a group of upperclassmen blue chips he wins. The years where they're younger he typically underachieves with talent most coaches would die for.

Calipari 100% should have more than 1 championship with the talent and teams he's had. Last year's Final Four against Wisconsin Bo Ryan coached circles around him down the stretch. He had a team of Wall, Bledsoe, Cousins, Patterson and they lost to WVU in E8 because Calipari and crew were clueless against WVU's zone.

It's really hard to win a national championship and these guys are real good coaches but I think it is definitely fair to say they have underachieved given the talent they had to work with. They're great recruiters recruiting to a great brand but have underachieved with results on the floor.

I can certainly understand your point. That's a fair thing to say. I just don't like basing how good a coach is on the number of national titles he's won. Based on that, there aren't very many good coaches.

 

[CorduroyG]

I can certainly understand your point. That's a fair thing to say. I just don't like basing how good a coach is on the number of national titles he's won. Based on that, there aren't very many good coaches.

for the blue blood programs you put more weight on national titles. roy williams has coached 28 seasons for 2 blue blood programs, kansas and north carolina, and "only" has 2 titles. yea he has more titles than boeheim but the talent hes had at kansas and unc doesnt compare to the talent boeheim has gotten at cuse. i put duke, north carolina, kansas and kentucky on a different level and higher standards. those teams get the best of the best recruits just about every year. i think bill self deserves to take some criticism, his elite 8 record is terrible.

 

[Dave85]

A good data miner could analyze coaching results versus recruiting rankings and come up with a neutral way of judging talent versus outcome success.

 

[HOFCeluck]

This might sound weird and like it doesn't make sense but I think you can still be a real good coach while also underachieving.

Roy Williams teams that have won championships have been absolutely LOADED. The team with Hansbrough that won could have let a fan coach that team in the tournament and it wouldn't have mattered. He's also had teams that were very talented and not done a whole lot with them. He's been fortunate that he somehow gets a roster full of McDonalds AA's that stay a year or two longer than most guys in their position and then when he has a group of upperclassmen blue chips he wins. The years where they're younger he typically underachieves with talent most coaches would die for.

Calipari 100% should have more than 1 championship with the talent and teams he's had. Last year's Final Four against Wisconsin Bo Ryan coached circles around him down the stretch. He had a team of Wall, Bledsoe, Cousins, Patterson and they lost to WVU in E8 because Calipari and crew were clueless against WVU's zone.

It's really hard to win a national championship and these guys are real good coaches but I think it is definitely fair to say they have underachieved given the talent they had to work with. They're great recruiters recruiting to a great brand but have underachieved with results on the floor.

So what's the narrative when we lose to a URI, or Richmond, or Minnesota, or Vermont, or Butler? Is Boeheim an underacheiver? Is it bad luck?

I'm not saying he should have the same results as K, JC, or Roy. But it seems that underchieving is underachieving.

 

[HOFCeluck]

for the blue blood programs you put more weight on national titles. roy williams has coached 28 seasons for 2 blue blood programs, kansas and north carolina, and "only" has 2 titles. yea he has more titles than boeheim but the talent hes had at kansas and unc doesnt compare to the talent boeheim has gotten at cuse. i put duke, north carolina, kansas and kentucky on a different level and higher standards. those teams get the best of the best recruits just about every year. i think bill self deserves to take some criticism, his elite 8 record is terrible.

Then of the four bluebloods you listed, only K at Duke is NOT an underachiever.

Then again, he's only gotten five titles out of twelve final fours. So maybe he is as well.