Hey look a scoop thread

[AZOrange]

Scoop is a better point guard in those situations. He directs traffic better and looks for his teammates. Triche generally looks to score.

You can make the case for Brandon over Dion perhaps, but in crunch time you want more of a true point guard out there. That means Scoop over Brandon.

Plus all of our guards have the same problem scoop has...overdribble, leave feet, make questionable passes in traffic.

 

[TinyManInside]

I would have liked BT to get some more playing time in the second half, but seriously what would he have brought if he subbed in for Scoop? Everyone is so gung-ho about the game that Joseph played last night, but almost all of his buckets in the second half were set up by Scoop's penetration and kick-outs. Kris flatout does not get those shots with BT in there instead of Scoop. Brandon is just not nearly as adept at setting up teammates as Jardine is.

I like Brandon's game sense, and I would have preferred him out there instead of Dion taking a series of crazy deep fall-away shots - but honestly Scoop is the only one on the team that consistently looks to get his teammate shots. If Melo converts that oop and Fair knocks down a couple of the wide open jumpers that Scoop set him up for, Scoop would have had 10-12 assists.

Mason

 

[AZOrange]

I would have liked BT to get some more playing time in the second half, but seriously what would he have brought if he subbed in for Scoop? Everyone is so gung-ho about the game that Joseph played last night, but almost all of his buckets in the second half were set up by Scoop's penetration and kick-outs. Kris flatout does not get those shoots with BT in there instead of Scoop. Brandon is just not nearly as adept at setting up teammates as Jardine is.

I like Brandon's game sense, and I would have preferred him out there instead of Dion taking a series of crazy deep fall-away shots - but honestly Scoop is the only one on the team that consistently looks to get his teammate shots. If Melo converts that oop and Fair knocks down a couple of the wide open jumpers that Scoop set him up for, Scoop would have had 10-12 assists.

Mason

Dion reversed course a little last night...I wish Mike would get a little more burn, I dont think he was bad last night and he was great against SJU. If he can hit the 3 why cant he be next to scoop?

 

[Garbs]

Dion reversed course a little last night...I wish Mike would get a little more burn, I dont think he was bad last night and he was great against SJU. If he can hit the 3 why cant he be next to scoop?

yea I see no reason fro MCW to not get at least one chance a half, just like Rak at least gets the chance to start the half, and I agree him and Scoop together I feel is the only combo we never see

 

[rrlbees]

I would have liked BT to get some more playing time in the second half, but seriously what would he have brought if he subbed in for Scoop? Everyone is so gung-ho about the game that Joseph played last night, but almost all of his buckets in the second half were set up by Scoop's penetration and kick-outs. Kris flat out does not get those shots with BT in there instead of Scoop. Brandon is just not nearly as adept at setting up teammates as Jardine is.

I like Brandon's game sense, and I would have preferred him out there instead of Dion taking a series of crazy deep fall-away shots - but honestly Scoop is the only one on the team that consistently looks to get his teammate shots. If Melo converts that oop and Fair knocks down a couple of the wide open jumpers that Scoop set him up for, Scoop would have had 10-12 assists.

Mason

You're pretty much right about Scoop. He assisted on 4 of KJo's 3's while Triche and Dion assisted on 1 each. But for every good thing Scoop does, he turns around and gives it right back. There was a 10 minute stretch where we did nothing but wonder why he was out there. It's nice to pass it to KJo for a 3 (which in reverse of your point, if KJo isn't on, Scoop has a horrible line), but you can't make 2 bad decisions for every good play either. I do agree that he should have been out there (not for 25 in the 2nd half and OT tho) but I have no idea why Dion was. He played 35 minutes and gave us nothing. The 1st half, he and Scoop played zero defense, they don't even try half the time to fight through a screen or they made half-hearted attempts at getting out on a shooter.

But it is frustrating that in the last 4 1/2 minutes of regulation, we don't score a basket. And it's because Scoop and Dion tried to do too much and being hero's. Look at our possessions those last minutes after Kjo made a 3. Missed jumper by Dion. Turnover by Scoop. Turnover by CJ. Missed 3 by Scoop. Missed 3 by Dion. Missed 3 by Dion. Not a shot by KJo after he hit the 3 at the 4 1/2 minute mark. No Triche to be found. What.

At the end of regulation, Dion chucked that bad 3 when the pass should have gone quickly over to KJo who was wide open at the time. But no, Dion wanted take it. At the end of OT with the 3 point lead, JB puts in Triche because GTown would foul. Ball comes into Dion and instead of going quickly to Triche who was wide open at the time (you can't see it on TV because they cut in after Dion got fouled), he holds the ball so he can take the foul. JB was even looking at Dion after that and pointing to Triche. Triche wouldn't even have gotten fouled because those 2.5 seconds would have run off.

BTW, a part of me wonders if Dion was out there instead of Triche for so long the 2nd half because KJo was on in the 2nd half. When BT was in they played M2M. When Dion was in, they played zone, which of course helps KJo get off 3's.

But Dion needs to realize 2 things. First, teams know he is a great penetrator. When he is in, the other team is zoning us and playing off Dion in particular. They give him the jumper and don't get in his face. That doesn't mean he has to take 6 3 pointers. He has to be patient and stay within the offense. Second, we are playing very good teams now. These aren't the teams we played in December where everything Dion tried, worked. People wonder why he just doesn't go to the hole every single time. One poster suggested he needs to hog the ball more. Umm, no. The teams we are facing now are a bit quicker, bigger and more skilled. Before, he could do that nearly every time. Now he has to pick his spots. He will get his chances, but he can't force the issue. The defenses are just better and teams have figured out that you sag off him and give him J's.

 

[LennX6]

We're gonna lose in the tournament because JB is gonna ride it out with scoop in tight games and triche is gonna sit, and scoop is gonna try an alley oop to melo with 10 seconds left down 1 that doesnt have a chance. I cringed every time scoop had the ball and tried to make a play in crunch time. Yes he got the assist on the winning 3 by KJ, but he was EXTREMELY shaky. Truly baffling why triche wasnt out there. Dion has to be out there even if hes off, nobody else has his ability to get to the rim and draw a foul, like he did in ot. JB cant be stubborn with scoop, we cant afford to have bad scoop in crunch time, its gonna cost us big time

At crunch time, at least in the offensive end, I would love to see a lineup of Triche, Joseph, Dion , Scoop and Melo. That lineup , in the BET and NCAA will be 85% FT shooters as a group.

 

[TinyManInside]

You're pretty much right about Scoop. He assisted on 4 of KJo's 3's while Triche and Dion assisted on 1 each. But for every good thing Scoop does, he turns around and gives it right back. There was a 10 minute stretch where we did nothing but wonder why he was out there. It's nice to pass it to KJo for a 3 (which in reverse of your point, if KJo isn't on, Scoop has a horrible line), but you can't make 2 bad decisions for every good play either. I do agree that he should have been out there (not for 25 in the 2nd half and OT) but I have no idea why Dion was. He played 35 minutes and gave us nothing. The 1st half, he and Scoop played zero defense, they don't even try half the time to fight through a screen or they make half-hearted attempt at getting out on a shooter.

But it is frustrating that in the last 4 1/2 minutes of regulation, we don't score a basket. And it's because Scoop and Dion tried to do too much being hero's. Look at our possessions those last minutes after Kjo made a 3. Missed jumper by Dion. Turnover by Scoop. Turnover by CJ. Missed 3 by Scoop. Missed 3 by Dion. Missed 3 by Dion. Not a shot by KJo after he hit the 3 at the 4 1/2 minute mark. No Triche to be found. What.

At the end of regulation, Dion chucked that bad 3 when the pass should have gone quickly over to KJo who was wide open at the time. But no, Dion wanted take it. At the end of OT with the 3 point lead, JB puts in Triche because GTown would foul. Ball comes into Dion and instead of going to quickly to Triche who was wide open at the time (you can't see it on TV because they cut in after Dion got fouled), he holds the ball so he can take the foul. JB was even looking at Dion after that and pointing to Triche. Triche wouldn't even have gotten fouled because those 2.5 seconds would have run off.

BTW, a part of me wonders if Dion was out there instead of Triche for so long the 2nd half because KJo was on in the 2nd half. When BT was in they played M2M. When Dion was in, they played zone, which of course helps KJo get off 3's.

But Dion needs to realize 2 things. First, teams know he is a great penetrator. When he is in the other team is zoning us and playing off Dion in particular. They give him the jumper and don't get in his face. That doesn't mean he has to take 6 3 pointers. He has to be patient and stay within the offense. Second, we are playing very good teams now. These aren't the teams we played in December where everything Dion tried, worked. People wonder why he just doesn't go to the hole every single time. One poster suggested he needs to hog the ball more. Umm, no. The teams we are facing now are a bit quicker, bigger and more skilled. Before, he could do that near every time. Now he has to pick his spots. He will get his chances, but he can't force the issue. The defenses are just better and teams have figured out that you sag off him and give him J's.

Great post and I agree with almost all of it. Specifically that these are bigger and more athletic teams and as such there isn't as much room to operate on the drive for guys like BT (I thought KJ did a really nice job last night of not forcing the drive compared to how he had been playing).

I wanted to see Triche in there more during the last 15 minutes of regulation and OT, particularly with the way Dion was playing. I also see your point about Gtown zoning when Dion is in, and knowing that KJ was the only guy who could hit the broad side of a barn last night, it does make sense that JB would keep Dion in as a strategic move. Sort of a weird way to dictate a matchup - sort of a reverse psychology type of thing - but it does make some sense.

Triche I think is less prone to falling into horrific shot selection (like Dion at the end of the game), and that makes him a more comfortable choice in some respects. But I still don't think BT could have gotten KJ those same looks if he were running point instead of Scoop. With Scoop, you sort of have to take the good with the bad, and pray that there is more good than bad. He's >2:1 on Ast:TO this year, so there has been a lot of good... certainly much better than last year.

Mason

 

[TinyManInside]

At crunch time, at least in the offensive end, I would love to see a lineup of Triche, Joseph, Dion , Scoop and Melo. That lineup , in the BET and NCAA will be 85% FT shooters as a group.

Dion was choke-a-rama last night missing his last two FT after intentionally holding the ball to get fouled.

Couple that with those two horrible threes and him missing a wide open KJ at the end of regulation and I'm not too happy about the way Waiters is playing right now. Hopefully he picks it back up, because we need more than 8-9 ppg from him.

 

[LennX6]

Couldn't disagree with the anti-Scoop sentiment more.

Without Scoop, IMOP, our offense runs at 75% capacity.

Over the years Scoop has been held to a Zero-Tolerance for errors. We seem to remember every one.

 

[LennX6]

You're pretty much right about Scoop. He assisted on 4 of KJo's 3's while Triche and Dion assisted on 1 each. But for every good thing Scoop does, he turns around and gives it right back. There was a 10 minute stretch where we did nothing but wonder why he was out there. It's nice to pass it to KJo for a 3 (which in reverse of your point, if KJo isn't on, Scoop has a horrible line), but you can't make 2 bad decisions for every good play either. I do agree that he should have been out there (not for 25 in the 2nd half and OT tho) but I have no idea why Dion was. He played 35 minutes and gave us nothing. The 1st half, he and Scoop played zero defense, they don't even try half the time to fight through a screen or they made half-hearted attempts at getting out on a shooter.

One question I have that I have not seen addressed anywhere is , did anyone see JB barking at Scoop on the bench late in the 1st half. And I do mean barking! JB's mouth movements seemed accentuated and pointed. Scoop was doing his classic arm waving and pointing, trying to explain his point, but man-oh-man JB looked hot. And for the life of me couldn't place what incident prompted that. Was wondering if anyone had anything on that.
A point about Waiters, is I do believe in the Pitt game , Pitt couldn't guard him and if Dion just drove he couldn't have been stopped but he "settled". His shots the last few games have either been the one legged-one handed shot, or "settling" for perimeter launches.

 

[rrlbees]

One question I have that I have not seen addressed anywhere is , did anyone see JB barking at Scoop on the bench late in the 1st half. And I do mean barking! JB's mouth movements seemed accentuated and pointed. Scoop was doing his classic arm waving and pointing, trying to explain his point, but man-oh-man JB looked hot. And for the life of me couldn't place what incident prompted that. Was wondering if anyone had anything on that.

Missed that myself.

 

[LennX6]

Missed that myself.

Yeah, Knight and Musberger never addressed it either, which I found odd, because it sure seemed more than a "normal" talk.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Scoop had been drifting on defense. I had noticed that while watching and then he was benched. He seemed to be giving little to no effort up top. I don't know if that was the problem, but that was my observation prior to his "discussion" with JB.

 

[swish7]

Scoop had been drifting on defense. I had noticed that while watching and then he was benched. He seemed to be giving little to no effort up top. I don't know if that was the problem, but that was my observation prior to his "discussion" with JB.

I recall that scoop was playing a little dispassionate On defense.

He had his hands down and he was sort of lollygagging around in his spot in the zone.

A Georgetown player lost the ball or there was a long rebound I don't remember but the ball clearly bounced scoops way he could've easily grabbed it but because he was playing lazily he was not in good position to get the ball.

Georgetown got the ball and scored.

if scoop have been playing with a little more effort or with his normal effort he could've easily gotten the ball and probably would've had a fast break.

He was then benched

 

[STEVEHOLT]

One question I have that I have not seen addressed anywhere is , did anyone see JB barking at Scoop on the bench late in the 1st half. And I do mean barking! JB's mouth movements seemed accentuated and pointed. Scoop was doing his classic arm waving and pointing, trying to explain his point, but man-oh-man JB looked hot. And for the life of me couldn't place what incident prompted that. Was wondering if anyone had anything on that.
A point about Waiters, is I do believe in the Pitt game , Pitt couldn't guard him and if Dion just drove he couldn't have been stopped but he "settled". His shots the last few games have either been the one legged-one handed shot, or "settling" for perimeter launches.

They were arguing about the most recent Teen Mom II episode as to who was more to blame for the broken relationship between Keifer and Janelle. Scoop is in Keifer's corner, Coach supports Janelle.

 

[mantonio]

Triche is not some offensive force that is going to take his man off the dribble and score going to the hoope or dish when help arrives for a dunk. He is more of a dependent player that is better catching and shooting. I dont really see he and scoop as being analagous

Triche DOES have the ability to outmuscle his defender to the hole, so sometimes speed is not necessary. I wish he would try this more often. With an iso or a good pick, Brandon can get the job done, if he starts believing in his abilities.

 

[OrangeTarheel]

One question I have that I have not seen addressed anywhere is , did anyone see JB barking at Scoop on the bench late in the 1st half. And I do mean barking! JB's mouth movements seemed accentuated and pointed. Scoop was doing his classic arm waving and pointing, trying to explain his point, but man-oh-man JB looked hot. And for the life of me couldn't place what incident prompted that. Was wondering if anyone had anything on that.
A point about Waiters, is I do believe in the Pitt game , Pitt couldn't guard him and if Dion just drove he couldn't have been stopped but he "settled". His shots the last few games have either been the one legged-one handed shot, or "settling" for perimeter launches.

Yup, I saw it -- it really stood out because of how animated JB was. I was laughing about it and paused the game so my wife could see JB conduct surgery on Scoop to install a new one.

I think someone on here said it well, we remember all of Scoop's mistakes - every one. I have thought of Scoop as making poor decisions for so long that I look at everything he does and think, "Here he goes again." At the same time he has been clutch at the end of games this year, not many guys on this team meet that description.

 

[madscientst]

As far as Wednesday's game goes, I was a little surprised Boeheim opted for Waiters over Triche down the stretch. I understand why he did it. But I was watching Triche during warmups before the second half and thought he was ready to have one of his patented second half offensive explosions, especially when he hit that 3 during the early second half run.

Having said that, if the game is close, I want Scoop in the game. He made a few more mistakes on Wednesday than he has in other games, but he was really very good. Scoop's mistakes this year have been more due to his aggressiveness in creating for his teammates, instead of trying to create for himself which is what got him the bad rap last year. Without Scoop, we don't win on Wednesday. None of those other guys were going to figure out that GTown zone any better.

 

[arbitragegls]

This answers the question why Scoop was in the game so long...he is the more creative passer and does make the team run (maybe I am too myopic with that feeling he is as much bad Scoop as good Scoop).
But JB's quote below on Triche not beng in but Waiters was is interesting. Perhaps JB realized he made a mistake leaving Dion in at the end..now we continue to play someone with the hope he is going to break out...rather than who may be playing better--and that Waiters and Triche are similar...Really? Really!

JB: “Scoop is the best passer on the team and gets us into our offense. Dion and Brandon are similar. Dion never did get it going. But you think he’s going to break out….Dion is really good in late-game situations. You could argue about it and I wouldn’t be upset. Coach’s don’t have hindsight.”

Coach, I think you made a mistake...

 

[SoBristol]

. . .
But JB's quote below on Triche not beng in but Waiters was is interesting. Perhaps JB realized he made a mistake leaving Dion in at the end..now we continue to play someone with the hope he is going to break out...rather than who may be playing better--and that Waiters and Triche are similar...Really? Really!

JB: “Scoop is the best passer on the team and gets us into our offense. Dion and Brandon are similar. Dion never did get it going. But you think he’s going to break out….Dion is really good in late-game situations. You could argue about it and I wouldn’t be upset. Coach’s don’t have hindsight.”

Coach, I think you made a mistake...

Would there ever be a situation where you might agree with JB's decision to play Scoop and Dion in a late-game situation? Would you ever admit that Scoop and Dion have strengths in some areas versus what Brandon brings?

JB should always want Brandon when you expect the opponent to foul in the backcourt. He should always want Dion (maybe with MCW) when he needs to put on pressure. When we can get out in transition, or when the guards can get spot-up shots, you might want to go with Brandon. But when you need your second guard to make plays, get into the lane, get his own shot, dribble against defensive pressure, be quick, you might go with Dion.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

One question I have that I have not seen addressed anywhere is , did anyone see JB barking at Scoop on the bench late in the 1st half. And I do mean barking! JB's mouth movements seemed accentuated and pointed. Scoop was doing his classic arm waving and pointing, trying to explain his point, but man-oh-man JB looked hot. And for the life of me couldn't place what incident prompted that. Was wondering if anyone had anything on that.
A point about Waiters, is I do believe in the Pitt game , Pitt couldn't guard him and if Dion just drove he couldn't have been stopped but he "settled". His shots the last few games have either been the one legged-one handed shot, or "settling" for perimeter launches.

It could be, as we have recently learned, nothing more than JB sensed the crowd was disappointed with Scoop. Then JB does some theatrics, especially accentuated at home. This covers strategic flaws in the zone defense.

 

[pfister1]

Bees - Great point about Dion playing to keep Georgetown in a zone rather than the m to m. Not only did it get KJ shots that he was making, but it got CJ a fair number of wide open shots that I think JB expects him to make.

The other point is that we pressed a fair amount in the second half and I think JB prefers Dion to BT in the press as well, although I could be wrong about that.

Mason is right that BT is less prone to poor shot selection, but I question whether this is because he is making good decisions or falling into his defer to others - non assertive mode. Someone has to take the shot and when we hold the ball until there is only 10-12 seconds on the shot clock, oftentimes its not going to be a great look that we get.

 

[TinyManInside]

Would there ever be a situation where you might agree with JB's decision to play Scoop and Dion in a late-game situation? Would you ever admit that Scoop and Dion have strengths in some areas versus what Brandon brings?

JB should always want Brandon when you expect the opponent to foul in the backcourt. He should always want Dion (maybe with MCW) when he needs to put on pressure. When we can get out in transition, or when the guards can get spot-up shots, you might want to go with Brandon. But when you need your second guard to make plays, get into the lane, get his own shot, dribble against defensive pressure, be quick, you might go with Dion.

Nice breakdown.

 

[TinyManInside]

Bees - Great point about Dion playing to keep Georgetown in a zone rather than the m to m. Not only did it get KJ shots that he was making, but it got CJ a fair number of wide open shots that I think JB expects him to make.

The other point is that we pressed a fair amount in the second half and I think JB prefers Dion to BT in the press as well, although I could be wrong about that.

Mason is right that BT is less prone to poor shot selection, but I question whether this is because he is making good decisions or falling into his defer to others - non assertive mode. Someone has to take the shot and when we hold the ball until there is only 10-12 seconds on the shot clock, oftentimes its not going to be a great look that we get.

I think BT knows the difference between a good and bad shot better than Dion. That's part of the reason why his 3pt shooting percentage is better. I don't think BT is a particularly good outside shooter, but he is pretty smart about taking only ones that he's capable of making (unlike the last two threes that Dion chucked up that had no chance). But, part of BT's better shot selection is knowing how much time and space he needs to get a clean look... his shot set-up is not the fastest, although he has certainly improved in setting up in transition.

Also, Brandon was shooting 25% from three that game, so it's not like we're talking about JB taking out a guy who was 5-7 or something like that.

Mason

 

[Garbs]

will be 85% FT shooters as a group.

no they wouldn't, scoop and melo shot 50% from FT line