Hey look a scoop thread

[AZOrange]

It could be, as we have recently learned, nothing more than JB sensed the crowd was disappointed with Scoop. Then JB does some theatrics, especially accentuated at home. This covers strategic flaws in the zone defense.

Almost spit out my coffee...great post... LIVING IN AMERICA!

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Almost spit out my coffee...great post... LIVING IN AMERICA!

That original post by BlueCurtain has, in my mind, acheived instant syracusefan.com classic status. And as such, can be referenced right along with the increased dimensions, or bad feelings (sorry), type posts.

 

[AZOrange]

That original post by BlueCurtain has, in my mind, acheived instant syracusefan.com classic status. And as such, can be referenced right along with the increased dimensions, or bad feelings (sorry), type posts.

Even the thought of having come up with such a theory is legendary

 

[rrlbees]

JB should always want Brandon when you expect the opponent to foul in the backcourt. He should always want Dion (maybe with MCW) when he needs to put on pressure. When we can get out in transition, or when the guards can get spot-up shots, you might want to go with Brandon. But when you need your second guard to make plays, get into the lane, get his own shot, dribble against defensive pressure, be quick, you might go with Dion.

Always is a bad word. Always should not include when someone is playing like ass. As to pressure, go back and watch the past few games when we have used pressure. Triche is in the middle of a lot of that and causing problems. While not as "quick" as others, he isn't slow either and there is something to be said for being in the right place at the right time. As to penetration, I think many people don't see how much Triche does penetrate. FAR more than he did last year. Not necessarily Gtown, but for the past several games he does that before he does anything else. Lastly, as to handling the ball and pressure, all 3 of our guards are above 2-1 in assist to turnover ratio, so that's pretty good. None of them are a turnover machine and I haven't seen any of them when they are trying to break pressure have problems.

 

[anglerman]

Yup, I saw it -- it really stood out because of how animated JB was. I was laughing about it and paused the game so my wife could see JB conduct surgery on Scoop to install a new one.

I think someone on here said it well, we remember all of Scoop's mistakes - every one. I have thought of Scoop as making poor decisions for so long that I look at everything he does and think, "Here he goes again." At the same time he has been clutch at the end of games this year, not many guys on this team meet that description.

Wow! You do realize that triche is both much quiker and fastewr than Scoop right?

 

[anglerman]

Rwakl

As far as Wednesday's game goes, I was a little surprised Boeheim opted for Waiters over Triche down the stretch. I understand why he did it. But I was watching Triche during warmups before the second half and thought he was ready to have one of his patented second half offensive explosions, especially when he hit that 3 during the early second half run.

Having said that, if the game is close, I want Scoop in the game. He made a few more mistakes on Wednesday than he has in other games, but he was really very good. Scoop's mistakes this year have been more due to his aggressiveness in creating for his teammates, instead of trying to create for himself which is what got him the bad rap last year. Without Scoop, we don't win on Wednesday. None of those other guys were going to figure out that GTown zone any better.

Really? Ypu do realize that we dind't score in the last four minutes of the game? We couldn't have it without Scoop! You people are comical he was flat out terrible in this game. waiters wasn't any better. We have other great options that were sitting on the bench. The decision to go with those two players wasn't a good one. Lets be honest.

 

[CorduroyG]

Rwakl

Really? Ypu do realize that we dind't score in the last four minutes of the game? We couldn't have it without Scoop! You people are comical he was flat out terrible in this game. waiters wasn't any better. We have other great options that were sitting on the bench. The decision to go with those two players wasn't a good one. Lets be honest.

I cant believe people thought scoop was good against gtown, especially in crunch time. Someone said we wouldnt have won without scoop??????????? WE DIDNT SCORE THE LAST 4 MINUTES OF THE GAME!!! HE SHOT 1-7!!! HE MISSED A COUPLE WIDE OPEN LOOKS AT THE END OF REGULATION AND OT!!! yes 8 assists, also 4 turnovers, and a couple more classic awful scoop passes that we were lucky gtown fumbled out of bounds. The argument "triche wouldnt have done any better" is ed. He couldnt have done any worse.

JB is overthinking when to use his guards. If we're winning go with triche, if we're losing go with scoop, if we're facing man to man go with triche, if we're facing a 1-3-1 go with scoop, if we're facing king kong go with triche, if we're facing godzilla go with scoop, blah blah blah. Go with whoever is playing better, and even though triche wasnt great, he was better than scoop on wednesday. Simply cant afford to have bad scoop in crunch time, its gonna cost us our season.

 

[anglerman]

I cant believe people thought scoop was good against gtown, especially in crunch time. Someone said we wouldnt have won without scoop??????????? WE DIDNT SCORE THE LAST 4 MINUTES OF THE GAME!!! HE SHOT 1-7!!! HE MISSED A COUPLE WIDE OPEN LOOKS AT THE END OF REGULATION AND OT!!! yes 8 assists, also 4 turnovers, and a couple more classic awful scoop passes that we were lucky gtown fumbled out of bounds. The argument "triche wouldnt have done any better" is ed. He couldnt have done any worse.

JB is overthinking when to use his guards. If we're winning go with triche, if we're losing go with scoop, if we're facing man to man go with triche, if we're facing a 1-3-1 go with scoop, if we're facing king kong go with triche, if we're facing godzilla go with scoop, blah blah blah. Go with whoever is playing better, and even though triche wasnt great, he was better than scoop on wednesday. Simply cant afford to have bad scoop in crunch time, its gonna cost us our season.

Exactly! Just go with the guy that's plaing well in that game. He has 4 very good guards, utlize them according to the way that game is going. Not buying the theory that Dion is better late in the game. I would say by far that triche seems to be the most clutch and honestly havent seen Dion make a lot of clutch shots.

 

[arbitragegls]

Okay all...brace yourselves for my post...(yes i am mostly a Triche fan..wellnearly always as some have pointed out).
I too believe JB made a mistake. He went too long with Scoop and Dion...neither were having a great game. I already posted the box score that showed for each guard's playing time Triche was doing better...that is not to say any of them were lighting it up. Next, SWC posted the net points and Triche led there too...but FORGET ABOUT FACTS...lets look at what JB said:

Scoop is creative and the better passer (can agree or not); Scoop will make errors because he takes chances and risks to make plays (agree with that and sometimes to many risks that end badly...hence BAD SCOOP.

But JB also said that Waiters and Triche are similar (really, really). Where did that come from. At any rate, JB also said that he was waiting for Waiters to break out...he did not break out...so JB said...wouldnt argue over fact that some think Triche should be in. But coaches can't have hind sight when playing...looking forward.

Okay, Triche wasnt in because he is similar to Waiters...Scoop in because he is only creative passer...but takes risks and some dont pan out...is your mind in a whirl also...??????????????

Now for the real discussion...how is Triche, according to JB going to be the leader next year; probably have ball in his hands much more than this year; and be a leading scorer...if this year he is relegated to bench for nearly all to the second half when he played as well or better than the other two....

 

[SoBristol]

Always is a bad word. Always should not include when someone is playing like ass. As to pressure, go back and watch the past few games when we have used pressure. Triche is in the middle of a lot of that and causing problems. While not as "quick" as others, he isn't slow either and there is something to be said for being in the right place at the right time. As to penetration, I think many people don't see how much Triche does penetrate. FAR more than he did last year. Not necessarily Gtown, but for the past several games he does that before he does anything else. Lastly, as to handling the ball and pressure, all 3 of our guards are above 2-1 in assist to turnover ratio, so that's pretty good. None of them are a turnover machine and I haven't seen any of them when they are trying to break pressure have problems.

I agree with part of that. Did you actually mean that JB shouldn't "always" play BT at the end of games when the opponent is trying to foul in the backcourt? I agree BT has been effective when we are putting on pressure -- usually with Dion as the other guard. As far as BT as being good at handling, beating a defender with his dribble and getting into the lane -- you have a tougher case to make. He is the 4th best of our guards at that skill. Not to say he isn't OK or that he doesn't do it on occasion -- just that's not his strength. His strength is being a good shooter from range, developing his mid-range game, finishing well in transition, and being steady.

 

[SoBristol]

Okay all...brace yourselves for my post...(yes i am mostly a Triche fan..wellnearly always as some have pointed out).
...

Now for the real discussion...how is Triche, according to JB going to be the leader next year; probably have ball in his hands much more than this year; and be a leading scorer...if this year he is relegated to bench for nearly all to the second half when he played as well or better than the other two....

Usually, next year takes care of itself. MCW and Rak aren't getting a lot of playing time, while other frosh for Big East teams (e.g., St Johns) are getting a lot. But next year, MCW and Rak will prove their worth. Obviously, JB is playing to win now. BT will get his playing time (still getting as many minutes as the other two guards), and next year he will be the only veteran in the backcourt. If he is wonderful as you say right now, why would you worry about his ability to take over next year?

 

[Sgt Cuse]

But JB also said that Waiters and Triche are similar (really, really). Where did that come from. At any rate, JB also said that he was waiting for Waiters to break out...he did not break out...so JB said...wouldnt argue over fact that some think Triche should be in. But coaches can't have hind sight when playing...looking forward.

Now for the real discussion...how is Triche, according to JB going to be the leader next year; probably have ball in his hands much more than this year; and be a leading scorer...if this year he is relegated to bench for nearly all to the second half when he played as well or better than the other two....

First, I think the "wouldn't argue" quote out of JB is as close to admitting a possible error as you are going to get in this hypothetical (especially when they come away with a victory). I think looking forward, Dion better perform better. The best explanation I've read came from rrlbees where he noted that with Dion in, JT3 went to the zone. JB wanted that zone because KJ operates better in space, and KJ was on.

As for your real discussion. I think JB likes having a leader that has been here years and has paid his dues. I know I do. There is likely to be a McD or two on the bench at crunch time next year and we don't want any whining. A mature BT could do wonders for the chemistry of the team. BT has plenty of game experience.

And let's not shed any tears for BT, he has been gifted the starting spot now twice in his 3 years. And by virtue of those gifts his 4 year starting win total will be the standard by the time he leaves.

 

[billsin01]

As far as BT as being good at handling, beating a defender with his dribble and getting into the lane -- you have a tougher case to make. He is the 4th best of our guards at that skill. Not to say he isn't OK or that he doesn't do it on occasion -- just that's not his strength. His strength is being a good shooter from range, developing his mid-range game, finishing well in transition, and being steady.

I agree with this. This is one of those things where you have to appreciate a player for what he is. Triche isn't my favorite guard for a variety of reasons but he's a solid player. Good shooter, improved ball-handler, generally improved offensive player, solid defensive player, good teammate... It's all good. But, while he does penetrate on occasion, it is absolutely not a strong part of his game. I agree that he's fourth best and he's a ways behind both MCW and Jardine -- and I'm not sure either of those two is truly a great penetrator.

 

[billsin01]

I cant believe people thought scoop was good against gtown, especially in crunch time.

I won't speak as to whether or not Scoop was "good" vs. g'town (though I'd argue that when this team's not running it just isn't great on offense and that certainly is partially Scoop's fault ... along with the 8-9 other guys playing).

But getting the assist on the game-winning shot and then forcing a turnover to seal the deal? I'd say that's OK in "crunch time."

 

[billsin01]

Okay all...brace yourselves for my post...(yes i am mostly a Triche fan..wellnearly always as some have pointed out).
I too believe JB made a mistake. He went too long with Scoop and Dion...neither were having a great game. I already posted the box score that showed for each guard's playing time Triche was doing better...that is not to say any of them were lighting it up. Next, SWC posted the net points and Triche led there too...but FORGET ABOUT FACTS...lets look at what JB said:

Scoop is creative and the better passer (can agree or not); Scoop will make errors because he takes chances and risks to make plays (agree with that and sometimes to many risks that end badly...hence BAD SCOOP.

But JB also said that Waiters and Triche are similar (really, really). Where did that come from. At any rate, JB also said that he was waiting for Waiters to break out...he did not break out...so JB said...wouldnt argue over fact that some think Triche should be in. But coaches can't have hind sight when playing...looking forward.

Okay, Triche wasnt in because he is similar to Waiters...Scoop in because he is only creative passer...but takes risks and some dont pan out...is your mind in a whirl also...??????????????

Now for the real discussion...how is Triche, according to JB going to be the leader next year; probably have ball in his hands much more than this year; and be a leading scorer...if this year he is relegated to bench for nearly all to the second half when he played as well or better than the other two....

By the end of this season, Triche will have logged over 2,500 minutes of division I college basketball. I think he will have some idea of what he needs to do to get ready for next season.

As for JB making a mistake? I'm not sure I agree. But, regardless, we all make mistakes. Like, for example, the 900 grammatical, syntax, punctuation, spelling and logic errors in all of your posts.

 

[br801]

As for JB making a mistake? I'm not sure I agree. But, regardless, we all make mistakes. Like, for example, the 900 grammatical, syntax, punctuation, spelling and logic errors in all of your posts.

That may have been a bit harsh.

 

[anglerman]

I agree with this. This is one of those things where you have to appreciate a player for what he is. Triche isn't my favorite guard for a variety of reasons but he's a solid player. Good shooter, improved ball-handler, generally improved offensive player, solid defensive player, good teammate... It's all good. But, while he does penetrate on occasion, it is absolutely not a strong part of his game. I agree that he's fourth best and he's a ways behind both MCW and Jardine -- and I'm not sure either of those two is truly a great penetrator.

Wow! Triche has by far the best handle on the team, it's not even close. He's the best at breaking the press and he's much quicker then Scoop who is actually slow and has the worst handle of the 4 guards. Williams has the second best handle. Scoop is by far the least talented of the 4 guards. You have no chance for an NC with him as your point guard. He makes far to many poor decisions forto SU to win it all. He allways has played that way and you haven't seen that by now then you just don't get it.

 

[billsin01]

Scoop is by far the least talented of the 4 guards. You have no chance for an NC with him as your point guard. He makes far to many poor decisions forto SU to win it all. He allways has played that way and you haven't seen that by now then you just don't get it.

Judging "handles" is subjective, I suppose, so if you disagree fine. I'll also grant that, in terms of pure athleticism, Scoop is not where the other guys are. I also agree that Waiters and MCW have tremendous upside where as Scoop is somewhat limited (though I'd argue triche is as well).

But your assertion that we have no chance at a national championship with scoop as a PG is ludicrous for two reasons:

1) If that's your only way to judge I'm not sure that's fair -- plenty of teams have won NCs with solid but not spectacular PGs. And it what world is a guy that averages 9 ppg, 5 apg, 2 TOs/game and 1.4 steals per game on 49% shooting and a solid handle not a valuable part of a rotation?

2) Are suggesting we don't have a shot at a NC with scoop at the point? I mean, he's been the primary ball handler for three su teams -- those teams are 81-14 and have been a legit threat to win a NC in two of the three years. I mean, I just don't buy that this team has no shot with scoop playing a key role. Will they win a title? Not sure. Do they struggle in the half court? Absolutely. Does scoop commit turnovers and force things on occasion? Yes. But aside from not being an NBA-caliber type player, the assertion they "couldn't" win a title with him at PG is simply not backed up by any sort of empirical data.

 

[anglerman]

Judging "handles" is subjective, I suppose, so if you disagree fine. I'll also grant that, in terms of pure athleticism, Scoop is not where the other guys are. I also agree that Waiters and MCW have tremendous upside where as Scoop is somewhat limited (though I'd argue triche is as well).

But your assertion that we have no chance at a national championship with scoop as a PG is ludicrous for two reasons:

1) If that's your only way to judge I'm not sure that's fair -- plenty of teams have won NCs with solid but not spectacular PGs. And it what world is a guy that averages 9 ppg, 5 apg, 2 TOs/game and 1.4 steals per game on 49% shooting and a solid handle not a valuable part of a rotation?

2) Are suggesting we don't have a shot at a NC with scoop at the point? I mean, he's been the primary ball handler for three su teams -- those teams are 81-14 and have been a legit threat to win a NC in two of the three years. I mean, I just don't buy that this team has no shot with scoop playing a key role. Will they win a title? Not sure. Do they struggle in the half court? Absolutely. Does scoop commit turnovers and force things on occasion? Yes. But aside from not being an NBA-caliber type player, the assertion they "couldn't" win a title with him at PG is simply not backed up by any sort of empirical data.

Look it's very simple he makes to many mistakes. He's erractic as hell and makes a lot of What errors. He's always been that way. I hope I'm wrong but I can see him pulling another Butler in the NCAA tourney.

 

[CorduroyG]

Is it me or did scoop peak during the 2009-2010 season? He seemed quicker too. There were games that year that he dominated. Cal at msg, gtown at dome, does he have a game like that in him now? Even that ankle breaking crossover against vermont in the tournament, it doesnt seem like hes quick or explosive enough now to make a move like that. Watching the BET game against gtown the other day from 2010 on espn classic, he just looked so much, uhh younger if that makes sense.

 

[arbitragegls]

Wow! Triche has by far the best handle on the team, it's not even close. He's the best at breaking the press and he's much quicker then Scoop who is actually slow and has the worst handle of the 4 guards. Williams has the second best handle. Scoop is by far the least talented of the 4 guards. You have no chance for an NC with him as your point guard. He makes far to many poor decisions forto SU to win it all. He allways has played that way and you haven't seen that by now then you just don't get it.

Before you throw stones, suggest you work on your spelling, and your grammar also...but hey, that is what i expect from a walk on. So lets think about grabbing a drink and forget that this is just fun and not an academic experience.

 

[billsin01]

Look it's very simple he makes to many mistakes. He's erractic as hell and makes a lot of What errors. He's always been that way. I hope I'm wrong but I can see him pulling another Butler in the NCAA tourney.

It's simple to say, but not simple to prove when you look at his numbers -- his TO rate is in line with basically every PG we've had and his assist:TO ratio is better than most (red autry/hart,etc). And he's shooting nearly 49% from the floor, which has to suggest at least decent shot selection. You can have your opinion, that's fine. It's just a pretty difficult position to prove.

 

[LennX6]

no they wouldn't, scoop and melo shot 50% from FT line

From here on out I see both of them in the 80% range , BT, Dion and KJ will be 85-90% .

 

[LennX6]

Yup, I saw it -- it really stood out because of how animated JB was. I was laughing about it and paused the game so my wife could see JB conduct surgery on Scoop to install a new one.

I think someone on here said it well, we remember all of Scoop's mistakes - every one. I have thought of Scoop as making poor decisions for so long that I look at everything he does and think, "Here he goes again." At the same time he has been clutch at the end of games this year, not many guys on this team meet that description.

That was "Michael Graham punched my player" mad.

 

[orangefan13]

My chips are all in with Scoop. I love the guy this year. He may have been the best player on this team in the month of January. yeah he made a pass in the backcourt to a opponent he thought wasn't paying attention. I will give him a game where he isn't overly conservative once in a while..Especially during Febuary Big East play.