Hockey Player charged with manslaughter

[OburgOrange]

 

[OburgOrange]

The complete video of this incident is horrible

 

[jncuse]

From what I understand (And I may partially or fully wrong in interpreting what I saw in a tweet) UK Law is a little different than US or Canadian law, and this arrest is at more of an intermediate stage than what we would be accustomed to which is why they use "Suspicion".

While I'm not 100% convinced that it was not accidental *, I'm personally strongly thinking reckless dirty behavior on the ice not meant to kill- that he wanted to sweep him or leg tackle him or even kick him, and it didn't go as intended. Which by definition would be manslaughter

*But I do think the prosecution will have a very hard time establishing a case beyond a reasonable doubt. I think a lawyer might well be able to get him off and create enough plausibility that it was accidental. The thing that is not clear from these videos is how much (if at all) was he incidentally clipped by the skater passing by in front of him. He didn't need to be clipped hard - in fact the slightest clips sometimes cause the most tumbling movements.

Its very clear from the video that he changes his direction of attack at the end - he did. And if you are skating hard, clipped while strongly planting on your edge of your right skate, while lessening the pressure on your left foot, its possible an unnatural motion could occur where your left skate shoots upward and its purely an accident.

Do I think that is what likely happened? No, but it might be hard to fully disprove it in my view.

 

[jncuse]

TL/DR version of the plausibility of an accident:
(Its possibly what happened in my view, but I see something more reckless and dirty gone bad as more likely)

1. Pengrove quickly skates towards the puck carrier (FACT)
2. He clearly alters his line of direction a bit to get at the carrier,(FACT) In order to do this he has to plant his right skate and loosen the pressure or load on the left foot (General skating mechanics).
3. At the precise moment he is lessening the load on his left skate he is slightly clipped by the other skater, very marginally thrown off balance, which causes the sudden upward motion with his left leg. (???)

 

[Cusefan95]

I know a lot of former college and AHL level hockey players. All of them I’ve talked to felt the likelihood this was entirely accidental is close to zero percent - he was probably being reckless trying to trip/kick/etc and did more damage than he intended. But - they also thought that anyone who hadn’t played hockey at a reasonably high level is going to have enough reasonable doubt that getting a conviction is going to be tough. One guy said “If this was Minnesota, he’d probably be screwed - but in the UK there’s probably not enough people who skate to get a conviction.”

 

[OburgOrange]

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I know a lot of former college and AHL level hockey players. All of them I’ve talked to felt the likelihood this was entirely accidental is close to zero percent - he was probably being reckless trying to trip/kick/etc and did more damage than he intended. But - they also thought that anyone who hadn’t played hockey at a reasonably high level is going to have enough reasonable doubt that getting a conviction is going to be tough. One guy said “If this was Minnesota, he’d probably be screwed - but in the UK there’s probably not enough people who skate to get a conviction.”

I played but only through the midgets level (don’t @ me that’s literally what the level was called) and that leg action was completely unnatural. I understand he was knocked off his feet and there was some degree of upward motion that was going to occur, but…. Skates are heavy ., when you go sideways the natural tendency is for them to go downward .. he totally intended an “accidentally on purpose “ type of contact., I have no doubt he didn’t mean for the skate blade to be involved or it to hit the neck. Apparently this guy is a greasy player as well

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Almost had a Salming situation

 

[Cusefan95]

I remember MacTavish skating around without a helmet on the ‘94 Rangers since he was grandfathered out of the helmet rule. Safety equipment changes more recently haven’t allowed that.

I suspect neck guards will become mandatory fairly quickly, this incident is proving to be a tipping point where there’s broad agreement it’s required. The University of Minnesota men’s and women’s hockey coaches wanted to make neck gear available for all interested players immediately - but a week later, the men’s team was only able to secure one neck guard. Demand is massively exceeding supply.

There’s probably conversations underway with some guarantees from top leagues they will adopt this soon - manufacturers are going to need to increase production rapidly (probably requiring immediate capital investment) and are going to need some confidence this isn’t a short term demand situation. I don’t think there’s any doubt neck guards will become mandatory - I think we’re already in the process of managing the rollout.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I remember MacTavish skating around without a helmet on the ‘94 Rangers since he was grandfathered out of the helmet rule. Safety equipment changes more recently haven’t allowed that.

I suspect neck guards will become mandatory fairly quickly, this incident is proving to be a tipping point where there’s broad agreement it’s required. The University of Minnesota men’s and women’s hockey coaches wanted to make neck gear available for all interested players immediately - but a week later, the men’s team was only able to secure one neck guard. Demand is massively exceeding supply.

There’s probably conversations underway with some guarantees from top leagues they will adopt this soon - manufacturers are going to need to increase production rapidly (probably requiring immediate capital investment) and are going to need some confidence this isn’t a short term demand situation. I don’t think there’s any doubt neck guards will become mandatory - I think we’re already in the process of managing the rollout.

I had a neck guard but never wore it. My mom was the one who got it and tried to force me to wear it. I hated it so much . It really feels restrictive because it’s around your damn neck . Also makes you look like a dork which didn’t help

 

[OburgOrange]

I had a neck guard but never wore it. My mom was the one who got it and tried to force me to wear it. I hated it so much . It really feels restrictive because it’s around your damn neck . Also makes you look like a dork which didn’t help

Hopefully the neck guard technology has improved Im since I wore one. They were basically a piece of cloth

 

[jncuse]

Hopefully the neck guard technology has improved Im since I wore one. They were basically a piece of cloth

There is an NHL Player (TJ Oshie I think) that is part of a company that does some very high end neck guards that are apparently quite comfortable as well. The cost though is well over $200 apparently. For NHL or high level players whose equipment is purchased for it would seem like a very good option.

It's a heavy $ purchase for all kids though. Although sadly some parents would be more inclined to spend $200+ on a single hockey stick for their kid who is going nowhere rather than protecting them most optimally,

I remember the first neck guard I hadwas some tube thing around the neck that would easily move around. Pretty useless POS. The next one was OK - not a piece of cloth, but not that much more. And the question was did it get enough coverage.

 

[Cusefan95]

Hopefully the neck guard technology has improved Im since I wore one. They were basically a piece of cloth

I’ve never worn it, but have been told the ones now with SpectraGuard fibers are very resistant to slash cuts. But the issue with these is there’s not a lot of real world data, it’s mostly lab analysis which may not correlate perfectly to game play.

For work gloves I think you can get cloth/woven gloves up to an A6 rating, but to get to the highest rating of A9 requires chain steel (I may be wrong on the exact details here, but know chain steel is required at some point)- if it turns out engineered fibers aren’t adequate, they’d probably need to make something with an inner chain steel liner to increase protection from current designs.

 

[Cusefan95]

There is an NHL Player (TJ Oshie I think) that is part of a company that does some very high end neck guards that are apparently quite comfortable as well. The cost though is well over $200 apparently. For NHL or high level players whose equipment is purchased for it would seem like a very good option.

Hopefully economies of scale kicks in as it goes from rare to required use and brings costs down substantially.

 

[jncuse]

I know a lot of former college and AHL level hockey players. All of them I’ve talked to felt the likelihood this was entirely accidental is close to zero percent - he was probably being reckless trying to trip/kick/etc and did more damage than he intended. But - they also thought that anyone who hadn’t played hockey at a reasonably high level is going to have enough reasonable doubt that getting a conviction is going to be tough. One guy said “If this was Minnesota, he’d probably be screwed - but in the UK there’s probably not enough people who skate to get a conviction.”

I talked to one former pro Player the other day -- and have heard one radio guy try to address it a few weeks back when it happened (the media have been very mum in addressing it). The radio guy said it was a freak accident (which I didn't agree with, the player I talked to said it was most likely reckless, but wouldn't fully rule out a freak accident. They actually said the opposite in terms of what the non skating public was more likely to think -- they said the public would tend to think its more intentional.

I think your going to here a few former professional players and sports media now address it now that the justice system has started to act. and a charge has been laid I don't think they wanted to be out there on either side, and in particular the "reckless" or "intent" side until it became more appropriate to take that perspective.

 

[OburgOrange]

I’ve never worn it, but have been told the ones now with SpectraGuard fibers are very resistant to slash cuts. But the issue with these is there’s not a lot of real world data, it’s mostly lab analysis which may not correlate perfectly to game play.

For work gloves I think you can get cloth/woven gloves up to an A6 rating, but to get to the highest rating of A9 requires chain steel (I may be wrong on the exact details here, but know chain steel is required at some point)- if it turns out engineered fibers aren’t adequate, they’d probably need to make something with an inner chain steel liner to increase protection from current designs.

Chain steel may be too heavy and uncomfortable to get wide spread acceptance. At least the engineered fiber would be an acceptable compromise and would provide a very good level of protection and usage