How Good Should The Program Be Yearly?

Sgt Cuse

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Being on the bubble 5 years in a row is underachieving
. Once or twice in a decade is OK, but not every stinking year. I think we've only won 1 ACC tournament game in 5 tries so far.

We've had a couple good runs in the NCAA tournament this decade, but those have been overachieving teams who played a good (gimmick) defense that gives us an advantage on a short turnaround.
Whoa - being a bit premature here. This team is not currently on the bubble and hasn't been since the Duke win. Of course, if SU lost all remaining games then certainly that is trouble, but that is the case with almost all but 10 schools. If we continue on our trajectory we won't be less than a 9 seed projection the rest of the way (probably higher after we beat NcSt). If that happens this is not a bubble year, it's a year with a slow start. And it would be a positive year over year step as we come out of sanctions.

Secondly, it is not a gimmick defense. It's the defense we use all the time, not some change up trickery.
 

Zelda Zonk

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So I've been thinking about the state of the program and my sense that we've underachieved over the past 5 years or so. But that belief begs the question of how highly we SHOULD be achieving. And I was curious as to everyone here's opinion? Obviously Boeheim has built the program from relative obscurity into being a powerhouse. But if you remove the coach from the conversation, and just look at the facilities, fan support, finances, school investment, conference, recruiting grounds, program reputation/brand, academics, weather, etc etc etc. How good should we be year after year? (And again, it goes without saying that Boeheim has influenced many of the above factors)

My personal belief is that we should be somewhere between top 5 (on the high end) and top 15 (on the lower end) most years, with outliers in either direction. Obviously you evaluate this with some combination of regular and post season success.

So my feeling is that over the past 5 years we've been a little outside the top 25 on average when you consider both of those things. The sanctions we were under explain some of it or sure, but either way it's been disappointing.

Thoughts?
I don't know how to answer this question. When we were in the Big East, i would have said we should be in the top 2 or 3 of the conference 'every' year. In the ACC, though, i see no reason to expect us to be ahead of Duke, Carolina, ever. And Virginia most years. So, then factor in another hot team, and Louisville, and i think we're lucky to be top 6. Which sucks out loud.

We should be a top 20 team. Should. But, i don't see that happening with regularity again until we don't have a lame duck coach. That's not a slight on JB, it's a reflection of how the whole non-transition, non-retirement thing was handled.

Something has to change, either with us and/or with the national recruiting landscape, for us to get back into serious contention for top 20 recruits on a regular (yearly) basis. The zone alone isn't going to get us there. And the inconsistent zone, coupled with recruiting in the 25-75+ range isn't going to get us back to where we expect to be.
 

IthacaMatt

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Secondly, it is not a gimmick defense. It's the defense we use all the time, not some change up trickery.
By "gimmick", I mean (with all due respect) that it has distorted who we are as a basketball team - the zone is the #1 factor in who we recruit now, and I don't think it should be. We are getting athletes and hoping to coach them "down 1 position" (from high school SF to college SG, from high school C to college PF, and - riskiest of all - from high school wing player to college PG). We're not doing a good enough job of it. We're trying to fit too many square pegs into round holes.

We are an elite defensive team over the last 10 years or so. But our offense has turned into a hot mess, ever since we stopped running out of the zone.
 

HOFCeluck

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Whoa - being a bit premature here. This team is not currently on the bubble and hasn't been since the Duke win. Of course, if SU lost all remaining games then certainly that is trouble, but that is the case with almost all but 10 schools. If we continue on our trajectory we won't be less than a 9 seed projection the rest of the way (probably higher after we beat NcSt). If that happens this is not a bubble year, it's a year with a slow start. And it would be a positive year over year step as we come out of sanctions.

Secondly, it is not a gimmick defense. It's the defense we use all the time, not some change up trickery.
We may not be on the bubble but being on the 8/9 line is a pretty far cry from where most of us thought this team would be.
 

Sgt Cuse

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By "gimmick", I mean (with all due respect) that it has distorted who we are as a basketball team - the zone is the #1 factor in who we recruit now, and I don't think it should be. We are getting athletes and hoping to coach them "down 1 position" (from high school SF to college SG, from high school C to college PF, and - riskiest of all - from high school wing player to college PG). We're not doing a good enough job of it. We're trying to fit too many square pegs into round holes.

We are an elite defensive team over the last 10 years or so. But our offense has turned into a hot mess, ever since we stopped running out of the zone.
I disagree that the zone is the #1 factor. I actually think JB tries to get offense first and has a difficult time finding good offensive centers - but would gladly take one if he could get them. Just recently KJ2, QGreen, Carey and now JG3 are not zone at all. DC2, Rick, AO all not zone.

I think with the lack of scoring at center JB wants to make sure the pg can score. Just like I think JG3's place will be at the point. I think JB feels it is easier to teach a scorer to distribute than it is to teach a distributor to score. I feel JG3 will have a much better shot at the point than H Washington. You just can't put another nonscorer out there with our pathetic offensive centers.
 

Sgt Cuse

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We may not be on the bubble but being on the 8/9 line is a pretty far cry from where most of us thought this team would be.
True. But if we can stay off the bubble this year it will be improvement over the last couple of years in that classification. And it kind of looks odds on that will happen.

Plus right ahead of us there is still great opportunity to get way off the bubble and into good team category. This year. So I don't think it's quite time to group this team in with the somewhat disappointing prior years. Not yet anyway.
 

HRE Otto IV

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IMO a typical year should be:

OOC 10-1
ACC 12-8
ACCT 2-1 (Semis)
Overall 24-10

NCAAT 2-1 make S16

That should be our averages. Anything less is a failed category.
 

Nicknack

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...i don't see that happening with regularity again until we don't have a lame duck coach. That's not a slight on JB.
How exactly is calling a Hall of Famer a lame duck coach not a slight? Wow, tough crowd. Boeheim is far from perfect, but I think some here may have a rude awakening when Boeheim leaves. Hopefully I'm wrong.
 

Sgt Cuse

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How exactly is calling a Hall of Famer a lame duck coach not a slight? Wow, tough crowd. Boeheim is far from perfect, but I think some here may have a rude awakening when Boeheim leaves. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I can't think of many coaches better than JB to bring SU out of sanctions. The idea that JB can't, or isn't, able to bring SU back seems strange to me. It's got to be based on ageism or prior hate.

The path SU is on, to me, seems like it's coming back. This years team is better than last years. Next years team looks like it will be good and SU is now getting/has good program players as the building blocks for multiple solid seasons - Eli/Buddy/JG3/Marek along with some star power - OB/QG/ and I thought JC. IMO, only need to shore up the center position. The sanction induced grad trannie panic pickup days are gone.
 

Fly Rodder

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How exactly is calling a Hall of Famer a lame duck coach not a slight? Wow, tough crowd. Boeheim is far from perfect, but I think some here may have a rude awakening when Boeheim leaves. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Lame duck is probably not the most artful term, but it's accurate. JAB is not recruiting late cycle one and dones like his buddy K. At some point, soon, the kids he's recruiting are going to want to know if the guy in their living room when they're 16/17 is going to be their coach in 3-4 years when they're planning on starting in the ACC. Buddy has three seasons left. Jim has three(?) on his contract. They're out recruiting 2020 and 2021 players right now. It's simple math and it is important when relationships are the key in recruiting.
 

HOFCeluck

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Next years team looks like it will be good
I hope so. We are going lose our best player, a four year program guy (day what you will about him) and Chukwu.

Guerrier
JBA
Goodine
Girard
Carey
Braswell
Boeheim
Hughes
Brissett
Sidibe
Marek
Washington

I’m not expecting Brisset to leave now but that’s still a lot of talent that’s at best inconsistent. And that’s not even getting into the silly transfer rumors.
 

Sgt Cuse

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I’m not expecting Brisset to leave now but that’s still a lot of talent that’s at best inconsistent. And that’s not even getting into the silly transfer rumors.
But I think the expectation is to have back 4 experienced players: Buddy/Eli/OB/Marek. That's more than a couple years ago.

Need, and expect, JC to step up along with several potential good frosh guards for at least one to emerge in a backup role (current leader Goodine). IMO, QG will emerge as the stud frosh and get minutes.

Concerned about center. Has JB been practicing Braswell there? Could be minutes for him, maybe the learning should start now. Or add a defensive center specialist (only because it seems unlikely at this juncture to add a complete product).
 

Zelda Zonk

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How exactly is calling a Hall of Famer a lame duck coach not a slight? Wow, tough crowd. Boeheim is far from perfect, but I think some here may have a rude awakening when Boeheim leaves. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Christ.
Lame Duck:
1 an official (especially the president) in the final period of office, after the election of a successor.
"as a lame duck, the president had nothing to lose by approving the deal"
2 an ineffectual or unsuccessful person or thing.


You seriously had to choose the second, not-oft-used definition, even after i specifically said i wasn't slighting JB. Some of you guys really need to twist yourselves around to find insults. Almost like you're happiest when you are whining about imagined disses...
 

Cuse#1

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"Someone wrote when Jim Boeheim retires someone with Charisma, honesty, fashion, a flair to defense and connects well to the kids"
The last message about a new coach definitely resonates with me!! exactly what I'm looking for in a coach as well probably pretty much exact opposite of what coach Jim Boeheim is. Now that's not necessarily saying anything bad about him but coach just is who he is and for the most part he's done really well with that for 40 years but in some ways in some years it does hold him back. and I guess for me the things that you said you would want a new coach and I agree with would kind of be a breath of fresh air around here. I guess I would kind of like to see a coach with some in your face pressure defense, very tough rebounding team which is tough to have for a zone team.
Instead of a Zone I like to see something new. Saying all this does not say that I am very appreciative to what Jim Boeheim has brought to this program and what he has done here.
 
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