How many years are fans willing to give JB to turn this around? | Page 6 | Syracusefan.com

How many years are fans willing to give JB to turn this around?

I'm not sure you can chalk it up entirely to luck -- I mean, if you believe that the staff has an ability to evaluate talent, then some of it has to fall into the poor evaluation category. But obviously luck is involved to a degree (good and bad). My guess is this class -- moyer included -- won't be viewed as the class that resurrects this program, but I'd say the hope is that it at least yields a solid piece or two that the staff can pair with a couple of big-timers in '18 and put us back on the map. But, to your point, it's hard to know.

I wouldn't see all luck but I do think this is a huge part of the story. I have a general theory of life that people vastly under-estimate the importance of luck. To the point here - the same people evaluated that 2-Wrights class as did the Devendorf/Onauku/Rautins class a year later. Tyler Ennis and Kaleb Joseph were back to back.

Agree with the conclusion that the next two classes look good, and also probably hold a lot of the program's future in their hand.
 
The fact that you call this thread disturbing is disturbing. Nobody is really bashing. Just good honest discussion, frankly. Carry on!View attachment 108867

Agree to disagree, but a like for one of luckiest poker players of all time. Well, Raymer was decent, but luck boxed his way to the ME title. He actually was pretty good.

Just looking at the thread title here tells it all. IMO.
 
Fans do not understand or are just plain spoiled how great JB is, the school does not spend money, how do we think we are going to replace him with someone of "status", he's taken $20M discount the past 10 years EASY
 
We all appreciate JB.
He isn't getting fired or leaving before he is ready now.
All my frustration personally comes down to the fact other coaches who are legends adapt and make changes.
I am not saying abandon the zone.
I am not saying play a deeper rotation.

JB has his style and his team is going to play that one way.
Coach K has adapted and taken some offensive philosophies from Mike D'Antoni.
He has learned JB's zone and has incorporated that into his arsenal when necessary. He beat UNC in the ACC tournament specfically because he switched to zone.

All I personally want to see our offensive philosophy retooled so that we aren't easy to defend.

Recruiting is going up because JB is energized.

The zone is going nowhere.
 
We all appreciate JB.
He isn't getting fired or leaving before he is ready now.
All my frustration personally comes down to the fact other coaches who are legends adapt and make changes.
I am not saying abandon the zone.
I am not saying play a deeper rotation.

JB has his style and his team is going to play that one way.
Coach K has adapted and taken some offensive philosophies from Mike D'Antoni.
He has learned JB's zone and has incorporated that into his arsenal when necessary. He beat UNC in the ACC tournament specfically because he switched to zone.

All I personally want to see our offensive philosophy retooled so that we aren't easy to defend.

Recruiting is going up because JB is energized.

The zone is going nowhere.

The zone is fine mostly because it torments teams during March but I do sure hate watching teams like Louisville and UNC destroy it every year. But I guess March is when everything matters...except when we don't make it and then everything is balls.
 
I agree it would be better for the program playing m-2-m & zon.

If they played some man-to-man, changed it up, kept other teams off balance we would be a much better defensive rebounding team.

When we used to run & gun w/ Pearl, Sherman, DC, Stevie, Billy O, DJ and others did we play zone exclusively ?



Watching the Big East in the 80s and early 90s on Sat or Sun on CBS was the BEST.......The Orangemen @ the dome and watching our guys FLY up & down the court - great passing and crazy dunks.
We very rarely have the opportunity to anymore b/c lack of defensive rebounding, the steals have helped, but not enough


G-Town will always be the enemy, but man was St Johns loaded - Walter Berry, Willie Glass, Mullin, Mark Jack, Jay Williams and my favorite Shelton Jones
 
I agree it would be better for the program playing m-2-m & zon.

If they played some man-to-man, changed it up, kept other teams off balance we would be a much better defensive rebounding team.

When we used to run & gun w/ Pearl, Sherman, DC, Stevie, Billy O, DJ and others did we play zone exclusively ?



Watching the Big East in the 80s and early 90s on Sat or Sun on CBS was the BEST....The Orangemen @ the dome and watching our guys FLY up & down the court - great passing and crazy dunks.
We very rarely have the opportunity to anymore b/c lack of defensive rebounding, the steals have helped, but not enough


G-Town will always be the enemy, but man was St Johns loaded - Walter Berry, Willie Glass, Mullin, Mark Jack, Jay Williams and my favorite Shelton Jones

Playing both M2M and Zone is the path to mediocrity and defeat. It's the worst possible strategy.

What makes the SU Zone good is that we are committed to it, we recruit to it and we work to perfect it, Installing another defense along side it will decrease the amount of time we have in practice to work on both the Zone and on the offense.

Georgetown is old news. They are hardly relevant anymore in the weakened Big East. Time to move on to the ACC completely. The only reason we still schedule them is that the Ticket department knows there are lots of fans stuck in the 1980's who actually think this is an important game. It's a money maker and that's why we play it.
 
Playing both M2M and Zone is the path to mediocrity and defeat. It's the worst possible strategy.

What makes the SU Zone good is that we are committed to it, we recruit to it and we work to perfect it, Installing another defense along side it will decrease the amount of time we have in practice to work on both the Zone and on the offense.

Georgetown is old news. They are hardly relevant anymore in the weakened Big East. Time to move on to the ACC completely. The only reason we still schedule them is that the Ticket department knows there are lots of fans stuck in the 1980's who actually think this is an important game. It's a money maker and that's why we play it.

That is Boeheim's reasoning. And it makes some sense.

I don't know about "path to mediocrity and defeat". We won a lot of games when we used to mix it up more, just like we won a lot of games from '10-'14 - the first five years of the 100% zone era. We can win either way when we've got the players. Boeheim decided this path was best and it worked great for awhile. It will probably work great again. It didn't work last year because we always had 2-3 players on the court that sucked defensively - all of whom ended up being one year guys.
 
Playing both M2M and Zone is the path to mediocrity and defeat. It's the worst possible strategy.

What makes the SU Zone good is that we are committed to it, we recruit to it and we work to perfect it, Installing another defense along side it will decrease the amount of time we have in practice to work on both the Zone and on the offense.

Georgetown is old news. They are hardly relevant anymore in the weakened Big East. Time to move on to the ACC completely. The only reason we still schedule them is that the Ticket department knows there are lots of fans stuck in the 1980's who actually think this is an important game. It's a money maker and that's why we play it.
Louisville switches between m2m and zone.

Duke has started switching between zone and m2m.

All programs adapt.

The fact is we can be a 95% zone and 5% m2m if the personnel isn't fitting.

JB's teams prior to 2010 did primarily play zone and had m2m in the arensal.

The advantage of the zone is teams not being familiar with it. That is tournament play. Conference rivals the more they see it the more familiar and successful they are against it.
 
Louisville switches between m2m and zone.

Duke has started switching between zone and m2m.

All programs adapt.

The fact is we can be a 95% zone and 5% m2m if the personnel isn't fitting.

JB's teams prior to 2010 did primarily play zone and had m2m in the arensal.

The advantage of the zone is teams not being familiar with it. That is tournament play. Conference rivals the more they see it the more familiar and successful they are against it.

This 2010 benchmark is a completely artificial fabrication. Truth is, we've played exclusively zone since 1996, with very few exceptions. We press a bit here and there every year, but play almost no man, and certainly no man beyond the conference portion of the schedule, except for a handful of possessions in an isolated, tiny # of games since 1996. With possibly 1 or 2 exceptions across that 21 year span.
 
This 2010 benchmark is a completely artificial fabrication. Truth is, we've played exclusively zone since 1996, with very few exceptions. We press a bit here and there every year, but play almost no man, and certainly no man beyond the conference portion of the schedule, except for a handful of possessions in an isolated, tiny # of games since 1996. With possibly 1 or 2 exceptions across that 21 year span.

We would still play man at times though, mainly in some easier OOC games but occasionally it sparked comebacks when we were down. We went man in our two biggest wins of 2003, ND and Pitt. We went man for the Kansas comeback in 2009, I believe the Ok. St. comeback that fell short in 2008, I remember a lot of man against UConn in 2000. We were definitely primarily zone from 96 on, but would also go man at times. I don't remember us ever going man since 2010.
 
I agree it would be better for the program playing m-2-m & zon.

If they played some man-to-man, changed it up, kept other teams off balance we would be a much better defensive rebounding team.

When we used to run & gun w/ Pearl, Sherman, DC, Stevie, Billy O, DJ and others did we play zone exclusively ?



Watching the Big East in the 80s and early 90s on Sat or Sun on CBS was the BEST....The Orangemen @ the dome and watching our guys FLY up & down the court - great passing and crazy dunks.
We very rarely have the opportunity to anymore b/c lack of defensive rebounding, the steals have helped, but not enough


G-Town will always be the enemy, but man was St Johns loaded - Walter Berry, Willie Glass, Mullin, Mark Jack, Jay Williams and my favorite Shelton Jones
We lack running game because of the players, not the zone. The Johnson Rautins team ran people out of buildings.
 
We would still play man at times though, mainly in some easier OOC games but occasionally it sparked comebacks when we were down. We went man in our two biggest wins of 2003, ND and Pitt. We went man for the Kansas comeback in 2009, I believe the Ok. St. comeback that fell short in 2008, I remember a lot of man against UConn in 2000. We were definitely primarily zone from 96 on, but would also go man at times. I don't remember us ever going man since 2010.

Those are a handful of games, dotting across hundreds of games we've played since 1996. And I don't put much stock in random OOC games where they toyed with it, against far inferior opponents. Since 1996, there are a couple of games of any significance--at most--where it was used at all.

And I say this full well understanding the 2010 LeMoyne game is where most probably point to as when we went full time zone. I'm just saying that we already had a full commitment to zone, with a bit of press situationally mixed in, long before then.

I understand where you are coming from though, OrangeDW.
 
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This 2010 benchmark is a completely artificial fabrication. Truth is, we've played exclusively zone since 1996, with very few exceptions. We press a bit here and there every year, but play almost no man, and certainly no man beyond the conference portion of the schedule, except for a handful of possessions in an isolated, tiny # of games since 1996. With possibly 1 or 2 exceptions across that 21 year span.
Would JB have switched to m2m like he did against Kansas in 2008 anymore?

Last year against Boston College we should have switched out of the zone as BC was torching it. We didn't and got smacked.

St. John's has carved it up 2 years in a row. Have we switched?

That is the stuff I am talking about.

JB won't switch anymore even if the zone is being dismantled.


I am okay being a 95% zone team anyway my frustration has been on the offense. The halfcourt sets we do aren't that good at getting the team buckets. We rely on ISO ball and jump shots. We don't scheme for the offense.
 
Would JB have switched to m2m like he did against Kansas in 2008 anymore?

Last year against Boston College we should have switched out of the zone as BC was torching it. We didn't and got smacked.

St. John's has carved it up 2 years in a row. Have we switched?

That is the stuff I am talking about.

JB won't switch anymore even if the zone is being dismantled.


I am okay being a 95% zone team anyway my frustration has been on the offense. The halfcourt sets we do aren't that good at getting the team buckets. We rely on ISO ball and jump shots. We don't scheme for the offense.

I really think you need to sit down with JB and advise him.

Your rants are getting very repetitive and frankly boring.
 
Louisville switches between m2m and zone.

Duke has started switching between zone and m2m.

All programs adapt.

The fact is we can be a 95% zone and 5% m2m if the personnel isn't fitting.

JB's teams prior to 2010 did primarily play zone and had m2m in the arensal.

The advantage of the zone is teams not being familiar with it. That is tournament play. Conference rivals the more they see it the more familiar and successful they are against it.


Get it through your head.
SU is not going to play both.

There's a logic for this that seems to escape you . That's why JB is the coach and you are just some random internet guy with an opinion.
 
Why is this a discussion every year? JB is gonna play zone arguing about it is pointless because its not going to change!
 
I really think you need to sit down with JB and advise him.

Your rants are getting very repetitive and frankly boring.
Thanks buddy you think I care what you think. You are a fanboy. Congrats. I was a fanboy when I was 12 but I grew up.
 
Get it through your head.
SU is not going to play both.

There's a logic for this that seems to escape you . That's why JB is the coach and you are just some random internet guy with an opinion.
Fans can support JB and have different opinions. This is sports not governing.

You want people to circle the wagons and never have their own opinions that disagree with JB.
JB is the coach. He is also human.

Fans like you and Realorange are the freaking wall and anytime anyone has an opinion that isn't 100% pro JB attack that poster/opinion.

It's freaking annoying. People can have different opinions and still support the coach and program.
 
Thanks buddy you think I care what you think. You are a fanboy. Congrats. I was a fanboy when I was 12 but I grew up.
I'm not a fanboy and I can comprehend your words quite well. Repetitive and boring.

Oh, and I'm old enough to be your father so I grew up before you were born.
 
Fans can support JB and have different opinions. This is sports not governing.

You want people to circle the wagons and never have their own opinions that disagree with JB.
JB is the coach. He is also human.

Fans like you and Realorange are the freaking wall and anytime anyone has an opinion that isn't 100% pro JB attack that poster/opinion.

It's freaking annoying. People can have different opinions and still support the coach and program.

As long as you realize that your opinion is from someone with no credentials and nor real credibility, have at it.

You do realize this, right?

Or does everyone's opinion have the same weight? Like yours vs. Boeheims?
 
Thanks buddy you think I care what you think. You are a fanboy. Congrats. I was a fanboy when I was 12 but I grew up.

Some of the posters have a wildly inflated sense of their knowledge and insights.

And then they bristle when someone says they are FOS. The first thing they jump to is their right as fans to disagree as if to point out their lack of real credibility wasn't allowed.
 
As long as you realize that your opinion is from someone with no credentials and nor real credibility, have at it.

You do realize this, right?

Or does everyone's opinion have the same weight? Like yours vs. Boeheims?
When have I ever said my opinion matters or has any more weight than anyone else's?

I give my opinions on plenty. I get some right I get a lot wrong.

Jim Boeheim is the coach. He gets a lot right. He gets some wrong.

Fans on this site don't have to worship JB.
My opinions are my own. Obviously he will forget more than I know on basketball coaching. With this said his inability to fix the offense has been a problem.

If our 2013 offense was just slightly above average that team cuts down the NC nets.
This team has struggled in the halfcourt for 4-5 years outside of last year because Andrew White made an insane amount of tough shots.

Last year's game against Miami has been a microcosm of our problems the past few years. We let a team dictate tempo. The opponent knew exactly how we would play. We didn't change anything and lost a close game because they had a 6 point run at a bad time and we let them dictate the game.

That game should have been won. Instead we scored 57 points and lost.

When an opponent scores 62 points Syracuse should win that game 95% of the time. Instead these past 5 years Syracuse offense has been struggling a lot to crack 60 points against P5 opposition.

That is terrible offense and we don't change anything. If you can't see the frustration then whatever.
 
When an opponent scores 62 points Syracuse should win that game 95% of the time. Instead these past 5 years Syracuse offense has been struggling a lot to crack 60 points against P5 opposition.

That is terrible offense and we don't change anything. If you can't see the frustration then whatever.

you are confusing a deliberately slowed pace with offensive efficiency. in fact, with the exception of 2015 and 2016, Syracuse has been in the top 30 nationally in offensive efficiency every year since 2009. And top 5 in conference-only efficiency in the same period (again with the exceptions of the gulag years).

the difference in the old, counting-stats version of offense (ppg) is found on the defensive end. when the defense is creating live ball turnovers and running opportunities, then the overall offensive pace picks up and the scoring average alone with it.

in short: the scheme is fine, it is the execution that matters. with the influx of talent, the execution will pick up as well.
 
you are confusing a deliberately slowed pace with offensive efficiency. in fact, with the exception of 2015 and 2016, Syracuse has been in the top 30 nationally in offensive efficiency every year since 2009. And top 5 in conference-only efficiency in the same period (again with the exceptions of the gulag years).

the difference in the old, counting-stats version of offense (ppg) is found on the defensive end. when the defense is creating live ball turnovers and running opportunities, then the overall offensive pace picks up and the scoring average alone with it.

in short: the scheme is fine, it is the execution that matters. with the influx of talent, the execution will pick up as well.
If you think our offensive scheme is fine I disagree.

It's easy to defend. It's ISO and pick and roll with most bigs who aren't a threat on the screen.
Then it's 1 on 1 jump shots.

We don't go inside out. We don't move the ball well and our guards have been poor at feeding the post.
 

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