How patient has Syracuse been with Dino Babers? Record shows he needs winning season to keep his job

[kcsu]

2 step Gilbert

 

[SU91]

Good catch. I’m shocked that CousCuse was caught playing loose with the facts

And it wasn’t his ground game either. It was the O line Coach’s.

 

[sufandu]

Do we know that Beck will run the same exact system? Will he make changes? Does he have different opinions than Anae? Does he have any prior OC experience?

I think Long and Gilbert are pretty similar situations. In both cases it is the same general system. In both cases it is an "upgraded" Co in that system. In both cases there was some separation between the current and former Cos. In Gilbert's case he was left with the former OC still on staff and had the HC who was also part of the system. If anything the transition should have been easier than Long's, who is on his own.

Of course Gilbert is not the coach that Long is, but is the above not true?

No it's not true.

Beck will run the same system. He'll certainly tweak and put his own fingerprints on it, but it's still the same system.

I see Gilbert as being more of a botched hire to replace Lewis moreso than replacing Lynch. Lynch was an inexperienced attempt at continuity that failed when Lewis took a promotion and Gilbert was a botched attempt to fix a unit that was stumbling after Dungey left with his heroics. Long doesn't need to fix anything because the defense has been fine, and he's an upgrade over the guy that left and ran the same system. I would say an upgrade for a unit that was already doing well is completely different than what we had when Gilbert was brought in.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

No it's not true.

Beck will run the same system. He'll certainly tweak and put his own fingerprints on it, but it's still the same system.

I see Gilbert as being more of a botched hire to replace Lewis moreso than replacing Lynch. Lynch was an inexperienced attempt at continuity that failed when Lewis took a promotion and Gilbert was a botched attempt to fix a unit that was stumbling after Dungey left with his heroics. Long doesn't need to fix anything because the defense has been fine, and he's an upgrade over the guy that left and ran the same system. I would say an upgrade for a unit that was already doing well is completely different than what we had when Gilbert was brought in.

I don't see a counter point in there besides your opinion that it won't end up the same (which I agree with).

In both cases it is the same general system with a more experienced Co in said system coming in (an upgrade on paper). Whether or not the prior OC was successful is neither here nor there.

In both cases Dino decided to keep the current system. In neither case should there be big changes occurring. Let's not act like we were going from an Option O to the West Coast O. The transition should have been smooth. Gilbert didn't fail because of Covid, but because he fails everywhere.

If you look at the football lineage Long is the Grandfather, Gonzales is the Father, and White is the Grandson. Gilbert was the Father and Lynch was the Twin Son. In both cases the new hire was the more experienced Senior to the prior OC.

In Long's case there is another degree of separation which means more variance from the original system. On top of that, it was also Dino's O system. There should have been more continuity in Gilbert's case. The failure was because Gilbert and the system were not very good. Long is more likely to have success because he is a good coach. That is the difference between the two but the transition is very very similar.


Tangent
I would not be surprised if Gonzales is on staff next season and then DC in 2025 after Long retires (or even in 2024 as DC).

 

[sufandu]

I don't see a counter point in there besides your opinion that it won't end up the same (which I agree with).

In both cases it is the same general system with a more experienced Co in said system coming in (an upgrade on paper). Whether or not the prior OC was successful is neither here nor there.

In both cases Dino decided to keep the current system. In neither case should there be big changes occurring. Let's not act like we were going from an Option O to the West Coast O. The transition should have been smooth. Gilbert didn't fail because of Covid, but because he fails everywhere.

If you look at the football lineage Long is the Grandfather, Gonzales is the Father, and White is the Grandson. Gilbert was the Father and Lynch was the Twin Son. In both cases the new hire was the more experienced Senior to the prior OC.

In Long's case there is another degree of separation which means more variance from the original system. On top of that, it was also Dino's O system. There should have been more continuity in Gilbert's case. The failure was because Gilbert and the system were not very good. Long is more likely to have success because he is a good coach. That is the difference between the two but the transition is very very similar.


Tangent
I would not be surprised if Gonzales is on staff next season and then DC in 2025 after Long retires (or even in 2024 as DC).

Ok, if you don't see a difference that's cool. I see it just fine.

 

[CousCuse]

Ummm, no. He's just an Offensive Analyst, not Coordinator. He's BEEN OUT OF FOOTBALL for the last year.

You're right, I was misinformed. I still think the offense was very productive and generated lot of big plays especially considering only having GS for a few months and he was transitioning back from TE. I think Beck is great, I just don't think Gilbert had a real chance to make a go of it. Maybe Sterlin wasn't a cultural fit at SU, but I don't think he has to be put down all the time.

 

[OrangeDW]

That’s a BS headline IMO, and I’m not even going to click on it and contribute to what Syracuse.com is obviously going for here.

We just had a winning season and a bowl game last year.

 

[elimunelson]

OK. The thread was about “patience” with Dino, so I simply said that patience should be long gone if he can’t get to a bowl this season.

I sure hope we exceed that minimum expectation.

I’m not as optimistic as you are, but that’s fine. It’s not shell-shock, it’s that we don’t have depth (like always), have notable holes, and I’m not convinced Dino can avoid the late season swoons that have become his norm here.

It’s not like I won’t be rooting for us to win every game.

two bowl games in a row is my barometer at this point. No bowl this year, I think you have to let him go. At some point we're not moving forward at all in a consistent manner.

It's ok to accept new blood when things stagnate. Dino is such a good guy with very few odd personality traits that we're drawn to him and want him to do well. He's not a crazy person like Shafer or wildly incompetent like GERG. In a way he's very Mac like in that he makes you want to like him and to run the ship. However, at some point the program must look elsewhere.

I don't agree that these assistants should go x years to get their system in place. No one in any sport is given multi years (absent a new HC) to get things right. Beck could be gone by year end regardless of record.

Time is now yesterday

 

[elimunelson]

As I’ve said before, the issue isn’t overall winning %. It’s *where* his best season came in conjunction with where Covid hit.

His longevity is seen as a mark on the AD/school not being as serious about winning - when it’s more about re upping a coach after one of the best seasons in the last 25 years. The season that in a normal year would have been his last was the 1-10 Covid year. But I don’t think you can fire him (w a big payout) when the cards were so stacked against him - combined w the financial implications resulting from no fans.

Reasonable people can differ about 2021, but we lost a ridiculous number of games by 3 or on the last possession. And we were rewarded w a decent/good 2022.

Very fair take. I think all these results, looked at holistically, tell a story as to why he's been allowed to remain as HC of Syracuse. Syracuse doesn't operate like a gunslinger with coaching changes. Dino has been lucky to have taken the SU job because these results at ANY SEC school, ANY BIG school, would have let him working on his resume.

 

[Lukeyloo]

Dino has had more institutional support and resources at his disposal than any SU head football coach since the early days of Mac, if not ever.

He has been the beneficiary of dramatically increased spending for coaches, better transportation for recruiting, massively upgraded training facilities on campus, a multi-million dollar Dome renovation, gobs of conference TV money, and the like.

Everything is relative. SU has increased its spending for football, but most programs have increased theirs even more. If SU is willing to pay assistants 'x' and other schools are willing to pay assistants '1.5x' then Cuse is still going to end up with the Gilbert's of the world.

It looks like that's been changing as of late, but what about the first 5 or so years of Dino's tenure?

 

[TheCusian]

Very fair take. I think all these results, looked at holistically, tell a story as to why he's been allowed to remain as HC of Syracuse. Syracuse doesn't operate like a gunslinger with coaching changes. Dino has been lucky to have taken the SU job because these results at ANY SEC school, ANY BIG school, would have let him working on his resume.

Thanks. I think you may be right about the B1G and SEC - but it’s probably still after 2021 and not before unless you’re talking Ohio State, Michigan, Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, LSU. (Unless race gets involved at one of the other southern schools - a not shocking statement considering some have never had a black HC).

3rd season is 10 wins - most schools do an extension then. COVID is a mulligan in most schools (though the rules in some of the SEC states were far less restrictive, I think)

 

[UpstateSM]

Unless the coach is clearly incompetent you should always give him a longer leash at a program like Syracuse. The only way to win 4 years out of 5 is to have a rock solid base system and culture in place.

Mark Stoops doing it at a hoops school right now and Bc finding out the difference with Addazio and Hafley

 

[Scooch]

Everything is relative. SU has increased its spending for football, but most programs have increased theirs even more. If SU is willing to pay assistants 'x' and other schools are willing to pay assistants '1.5x' then Cuse is still going to end up with the Gilbert's of the world.

It looks like that's been changing as of late, but what about the first 5 or so years of Dino's tenure?

Dino has been able to hire everyone he wanted for his entire tenure. That’s been supported by several people who know such things. Money has not been an obstacle to him building a staff.

 

[elimunelson]

Unless the coach is clearly incompetent you should always give him a longer leash at a program like Syracuse. The only way to win 4 years out of 5 is to have a rock solid base system and culture in place.

Mark Stoops doing it at a hoops school right now and Bc finding out the difference with Addazio and Hafley

And Hafley is gone if they don’t bowl this year.

The holy cross football coach is on deck probably for both SU and BC depending on who bowls (imo one of us will and the other won’t)

 

[elimunelson]

Dino has been able to hire everyone he wanted for his entire tenure. That’s been supported by several people who know such things. Money has not been an obstacle to him building a staff.

We have spent and provided the football program w tools. To me the x and o part of the operation now needs to produce. I’m surprised people are so reluctant on that point.

Having said that I think 7-8 wins this year and more Dino (and I’m ok w Dino to stay on if that happens).

 

[SUDadx2]

Dino has been able to hire everyone he wanted for his entire tenure. That’s been supported by several people who know such things. Money has not been an obstacle to him building a staff.

IF Dino has been able to hire everyone he wanted for his entire tenure as some would have you believe, then why would coaches like Sean Lewis, Zach Arnett, Tony White and Nick Monroe leave the program? Are you saying Dino didn't want them any longer?

IMO the statement "Dino has been able to hire everyone he wanted for his entire tenure" simply is not believable.

Yes, the football program has been given tools and resources have improved, but to think SU is now on par with the programs in the top half of the conference is not realistic. The program has more resources today than it did in 2016, but so do most programs in the ACC. I can't think of one program that has move backwards, but I can name a few who have continued to separate themselves from SU. Has SU passed anyone in the facilities arms race?

That said, I like the direction the program is headed; last season we were better than 2021, and I think this team is better than the 2022 team.

One area I think we need to improve is the academic support services. We have lost a key academic advisor or two and the players have expressed concerns. "If you're not at risk of failing, they don't pay much attention to you." We have several players who are on the verge of earning their degrees and still have eligibility on the table. Some want to earn their degree and take a shot at the NFL. Is this always the best plan? To leave school, not get drafted and leave eligibility on the table? (How would you advise your son?) Others want to get their degree and transfer elsewhere where they believe they can play and continue their education. And others are on the fence and need guidance. Example, players who can graduate and still have one or more years of eligibility and don't know if they should graduate and leave or take another minor, or turn their current minor into a second major, or go to grad school. IMO it is rarely a bad idea to get another degree. I'd love to see more guys stay and exhaust their eligibility while earning more paper (especially guys in the two-deep). Last season we had a player stay to use his last year of eligibility who was taking random classes in the fall to stay eligible. but those classes didn't help with progress towards any degree because he was ready to graduate and did not have a plan for the extra semester.

Our roster seems to always be on the young side (currently only 7 seniors or redshirt seniors on the roster). Of those 7 players, only one signed with SU out of high school (crazy). If we could keep players in the program longer, we might be a little older, a little stronger, a little more developed and a little deeper. All of which might make us more competitive on the field.

 

[orange_in_VA]

No it's not true.

Beck will run the same system. He'll certainly tweak and put his own fingerprints on it, but it's still the same system.

I see Gilbert as being more of a botched hire to replace Lewis moreso than replacing Lynch. Lynch was an inexperienced attempt at continuity that failed when Lewis took a promotion and Gilbert was a botched attempt to fix a unit that was stumbling after Dungey left with his heroics. Long doesn't need to fix anything because the defense has been fine, and he's an upgrade over the guy that left and ran the same system. I would say an upgrade for a unit that was already doing well is completely different than what we had when Gilbert was brought in.

Lynch has been the most productive OC besides Sean Lewis since Dinos been here. 2019 was seen as a "failure" back when Orange Was The New Fast but we lost a ton of talent on offense from that 2018 team and Devito just wasn't as good as we thought he was going to be. Not sure what could have been but what was shouldn't be considered a failure in our recent history.

Cuse OCs/QBs under Babers with Total Offense rankings

Anae/Shrader 2022: 76
Gilbert/Devito/Shrader 2021: 93
Gilbert/Devito 2020: 126
Lynch/Devito 2019: 72
Lynch/Dungey 2018: 18
Lewis/Dungey 2017: 23
Lewis/Dungey 2016: 42

 

[TheCusian]

And Hafley is gone if they don’t bowl this year.

The holy cross football coach is on deck probably for both SU and BC depending on who bowls (imo one of us will and the other won’t)

Hafley is gone

 

[sufandu]

Lynch has been the most productive OC besides Sean Lewis since Dinos been here. 2019 was seen as a "failure" back when Orange Was The New Fast but we lost a ton of talent on offense from that 2018 team and Devito just wasn't as good as we thought he was going to be. Not sure what could have been but what was shouldn't be considered a failure in our recent history.

Cuse OCs/QBs under Babers with Total Offense rankings

Anae/Shrader 2022: 76
Gilbert/Devito/Shrader 2021: 93
Gilbert/Devito 2020: 126
Lynch/Devito 2019: 72
Lynch/Dungey 2018: 18
Lewis/Dungey 2017: 23
Lewis/Dungey 2016: 42

Interesting. I'm surprised 2019 was that good. It felt worse. I'm not sure total offense ranking tells the whole story. Pace and a higher number of possessions allowed for bigger numbers but also gave the opponents the same. Wasn't there also a stat that year that had us really high in three-and-outs?

Maybe it's not fair to Lynch. Some blame needs to go on Dino and Martin for not recruiting more QB talent to challenge Devito and better WRs and the oline was atrocious. But as OC Lynch is responsible for some of that too. And if he was considered a hot commodity at OC, he would've had offers to be OC at other schools after he was demoted. People in the industry know who has it and who doesn't.

 

[Scooch]

IF Dino has been able to hire everyone he wanted for his entire tenure as some would have you believe, then why would coaches like Sean Lewis, Zach Arnett, Tony White and Nick Monroe leave the program? Are you saying Dino didn't want them any longer?

IMO the statement "Dino has been able to hire everyone he wanted for his entire tenure" simply is not believable.

Yes, the football program has been given tools and resources have improved, but to think SU is now on par with the programs in the top half of the conference is not realistic. The program has more resources today than it did in 2016, but so do most programs in the ACC. I can't think of one program that has move backwards, but I can name a few who have continued to separate themselves from SU. Has SU passed anyone in the facilities arms race?

That said, I like the direction the program is headed; last season we were better than 2021, and I think this team is better than the 2022 team.

One area I think we need to improve is the academic support services. We have lost a key academic advisor or two and the players have expressed concerns. "If you're not at risk of failing, they don't pay much attention to you." We have several players who are on the verge of earning their degrees and still have eligibility on the table. Some want to earn their degree and take a shot at the NFL. Is this always the best plan? To leave school, not get drafted and leave eligibility on the table? (How would you advise your son?) Others want to get their degree and transfer elsewhere where they believe they can play and continue their education. And others are on the fence and need guidance. Example, players who can graduate and still have one or more years of eligibility and don't know if they should graduate and leave or take another minor, or turn their current minor into a second major, or go to grad school. IMO it is rarely a bad idea to get another degree. I'd love to see more guys stay and exhaust their eligibility while earning more paper (especially guys in the two-deep). Last season we had a player stay to use his last year of eligibility who was taking random classes in the fall to stay eligible. but those classes didn't help with progress towards any degree because he was ready to graduate and did not have a plan for the extra semester.

Our roster seems to always be on the young side (currently only 7 seniors or redshirt seniors on the roster). Of those 7 players, only one signed with SU out of high school (crazy). If we could keep players in the program longer, we might be a little older, a little stronger, a little more developed and a little deeper. All of which might make us more competitive on the field.

Coaches leave for all sorts of reasons. A chance to move up the ladder, a promotion to a better programs, to be closer to family, etc.

I didn’t say SU can pay unlimited amounts of money to every coach to keep them in perpetuity. Even the SEC doesn’t do that.

I said Dino has HIRED everyone he wanted. Money did not prevent him from hiring who he wanted. That’s truth.

 

[sufandu]

Coaches leave for all sorts of reasons. A chance to move up the ladder, a promotion to a better programs, to be closer to family, etc.

I didn’t say SU can pay unlimited amounts of money to every coach to keep them in perpetuity. Even the SEC doesn’t do that.

I said Dino has HIRED everyone he wanted. Money did not prevent him from hiring who he wanted. That’s truth.

Is it though? Didn't we have a DC coordinator change his mind because he was offered more money to go elsewhere? We ended up with White, so it worked out, but at the time Dino didn't get who he wanted. If that one transpired pubically, how do we know there weren't other guys Dino wanted that weren't in the budget?

 

[elimunelson]

Is it though? Didn't we have a DC coordinator change his mind because he was offered more money to go elsewhere? We ended up with White, so it worked out, but at the time Dino didn't get who he wanted. If that one transpired pubically, how do we know there weren't other guys Dino wanted that weren't in the budget?

We are paying market for assistants. It doesn’t mean we will get 100% of our desired guys

Yes you are right we can’t hire Bill Obrien to be a consultant like Alabama.

Syracuse has removed the financial/facility issues from the margins is the point. We are still a basketball school playing football now but at least have funded it so we can compete

My point is if that is accomplished we need to punch above our weight w intelligent coaching and coy recruitment

 

[sufandu]

We are paying market for assistants. It doesn’t mean we will get 100% of our desired guys

Yes you are right we can’t hire Bill Obrien to be a consultant like Alabama.

Syracuse has removed the financial/facility issues from the margins is the point. We are still a basketball school playing football now but at least have funded it so we can compete

My point is if that is accomplished we need to punch above our weight w intelligent coaching and coy recruitment

That wasn't the discussion. The discussion was whether Dino has consistently throughout his tenure been able to get who he wants. I pointed out one example everyone knows about. It's not hard to figure there are more examples we've never heard of.

You're right. We seem to have made significant progress with it recently. Hopefully, we will see the dividends.

 

[cusefan88]

There's really a few eras right.

16-19: Orange is new Fast
2020: COVID Season.
2021-present: Increased investment and philosophical change (3-3-5 and now Beck offense).

 

[Cusefan95]

Coaches leave for all sorts of reasons. A chance to move up the ladder, a promotion to a better programs, to be closer to family, etc.

I didn’t say SU can pay unlimited amounts of money to every coach to keep them in perpetuity. Even the SEC doesn’t do that.

I said Dino has HIRED everyone he wanted. Money did not prevent him from hiring who he wanted. That’s truth.

Hiring "everyone he wanted" doesn't mean much, since the alternative would be he hired a guy he didn't want but was forced on him.

And money not preventing him from hiring who he wanted is far from "truth". He couldn't possibly come out and say "this is the best guy available for the little amount we're willing to pay"...sometime you have to toe the company line and say the guy you hired was the guy you really wanted, even if he's only the guy you wanted within the budgetary constraints.

What would be relevant is what the median salary for the top 50ish coordinators is compared to what Syracuse was/is paying. I think we lagged by a lot in the fairly recent past, and are in the ballpark now - that might be wrong, but its what I've picked up from posters here. With more investment in the program around him now, expectations should be higher - so I agree a bowl game this year should be the minimum expectation and its time to move on if it doesn't happen.