How Soon They Forget

[OrangePA]

Last 20 years worst coaches by school.

ACC
Frank Spaziani (BC): 22-29 3 yrs
Tommy West (Clemson): 31-28 5 yrs
Ted Roof (Duke): 6-45 5 yrs
None (FSU):
Bill Lewis (GT): 11-19 3 yrs
Steve Kragthorpe (Louisville): 15-21 3 yrs
Randy Shannon (Miami): 28-22 4 yrs
Mike Cain (NC State): 41-40 7 yrs
Johnny Majors (Pitt): 12-32 4 yrs (2nd run)
Greg Robinson (Syracuse): 10-37 4 yrs
John Bunting (UNC): 27-45 6 yrs
Mike London (Virginia): 18-31 4 yrs
None (Virginia Tech):
Jim Caldwell (Wake Forest): 26-63 8 yrs

Big 10
Ron Turner (Illinois): 35-57 8 yrs
Gerry DiNardo (Indiana): 8-27 3 yrs
None (Iowa):
Randy Edsall (Maryland): 13-24 3 yrs
Rich Rodriguez (UMich): 15-22 3 yrs
John L Smith (Mich St): 22-26 4 yrs
Tim Brewster (Minnesota): 15-30 4 yrs
None (Nebraska):
Randy Walker (Northwestern): 37-45 7 yrs
Luke Fickell (tOSU): 6-7 1 yr *Interim coach*
None (PSU):
Danny Hope (Purdue): 22-27 4 yrs
Terry Shea (Rutgers): 11-44 5 yrs
None (Wisconsin):

Big12
Kevin Steele (Baylor): 9-36 4 yrs
Gene Chizik (Iowa State): 5-19 2 yrs
Turner Gill/Charlie Weis (Kansas): 5-19 2 yrs / 4-20 2 yrs
Ron Prince (Kansas St): 17-20 3 yrs
John Blake (Oklahoma): 12-22 3 yrs
Bob Simmons (Ok State): 30-38 5 yrs
Pat Sullivan (TCU): 24-42-1 6 yrs
Tommy Tuberville (TTU): 20-17 3 yrs
None (UT):
Dana Holgorson (WVU): 21-17 3 yrs

Pac 12
John Mackovic (Arizona): 10-18 2.5 yrs
Dennis Erickson (Arizona St): 31-31 5 yrs
Tom Holmoe (Cal): 12-43 5 yrs
Jon Embree (Colorado): 4-21 2 yrs
None (Oregon):
Jerry Pettibone (Oregon St): 13-52-1
Walt Harris (Stanford): 6-17 2 yrs
Rick Neuheisel (UCLA): 21-29 4 yrs
Paul Hackett (USC): 19-18 3 yrs
None (Utah):
Tyrone Willingham (Washington): 11-37 4 yrs
Paul Wulff (Wash St): 9-40 4 yrs

SEC
Mike DuBose (Alabama): 24-23 4 yrs
John L Smith (Arkansas): 4-8 1 yr
None (Auburn):
None (Florida):
None (Georgia):
Joker Phillips (Kentucky): 13-24 3 yrs
None (LSU):
Sylvester Croom (Miss St): 21-38 5 yrs
Larry Smith (Missouri): 33-46-1 7 yrs
Ed Orgeron (Ole Miss): 10-25 3 yrs
Brad Scott (South Carolina): 23-32-1 5 yrs
Derek Dooley (Tennessee): 15-21 in 3 yrs
Mike Sherman (TAMU): 25-25 4 yrs
Robbie Caldwell (Vandy): 2-10 1 yr

Other
Rick Minter (Cincinnati): 53-63-1 10 yrs
Tyrone Willingham (Notre Dame): 21-15 3 yrs
Paul Pasqualoni (UConn): 10-18 2.5 yrs
Skip Holtz (USF): 16-21 3 yrs

Where is Bill Callahan of Nebraska?

 

[Rocco]

I'll stick with what I posted. It's all facts. And I wasn't addressing his ability as a HC. His four years show those results. I was addressing the program and the idea it was driven into the depths of hell.

It was driven into the depths of hell IMO. Robinson was an all-around terrible HC, which along with PP's lack of recruiting over his last few years, combined to sink the program down to those levels. Yes, he recruited some good players but the majority of them weren't D1 talent. When you lose by 14 to Akron in the Dome, there is no explanation.

People will look back on the incredible job Marrone did for this program and realize how impressive the turnaround really was. He kicked over 20 players off the team his 1st season because they were simply not going to play. He then started working with what he had and recruiting players to fit his system. He brought us to a bowl game in his 2nd year with a hacked up roster. How "abruptly" he left us isn't nearly as important as what state he left our program in, which was back to almost normal. Shafer will hopefully continue to push the envelope.

I will say that Robinson's era was the depths of our football hell (at least I hope we never see anything close to that again) and that Marrone looks even that much better because of what he was able to do in 4 years. From 2003-2008, I was in a bad mood quite a bit as I'm sure the rest of you football junkies were. Moving on...

 

[OrangeMojo]

Last 20 years worst coaches by school.

ACC
Frank Spaziani (BC): 22-29 3 yrs
Tommy West (Clemson): 31-28 5 yrs
Ted Roof (Duke): 6-45 5 yrs
None (FSU):
Bill Lewis (GT): 11-19 3 yrs
Steve Kragthorpe (Louisville): 15-21 3 yrs
Randy Shannon (Miami): 28-22 4 yrs
Mike Cain (NC State): 41-40 7 yrs
Johnny Majors (Pitt): 12-32 4 yrs (2nd run)
Greg Robinson (Syracuse): 10-37 4 yrs
John Bunting (UNC): 27-45 6 yrs
Mike London (Virginia): 18-31 4 yrs
None (Virginia Tech):
Jim Caldwell (Wake Forest): 26-63 8 yrs

Big 10
Ron Turner (Illinois): 35-57 8 yrs
Gerry DiNardo (Indiana): 8-27 3 yrs
None (Iowa):
Randy Edsall (Maryland): 13-24 3 yrs
Rich Rodriguez (UMich): 15-22 3 yrs
John L Smith (Mich St): 22-26 4 yrs
Tim Brewster (Minnesota): 15-30 4 yrs
None (Nebraska):
Randy Walker (Northwestern): 37-45 7 yrs
Luke Fickell (tOSU): 6-7 1 yr *Interim coach*
None (PSU):
Danny Hope (Purdue): 22-27 4 yrs
Terry Shea (Rutgers): 11-44 5 yrs
None (Wisconsin):

Big12
Kevin Steele (Baylor): 9-36 4 yrs
Gene Chizik (Iowa State): 5-19 2 yrs
Turner Gill/Charlie Weis (Kansas): 5-19 2 yrs / 4-20 2 yrs
Ron Prince (Kansas St): 17-20 3 yrs
John Blake (Oklahoma): 12-22 3 yrs
Bob Simmons (Ok State): 30-38 5 yrs
Pat Sullivan (TCU): 24-42-1 6 yrs
Tommy Tuberville (TTU): 20-17 3 yrs
None (UT):
Dana Holgorson (WVU): 21-17 3 yrs

Pac 12
John Mackovic (Arizona): 10-18 2.5 yrs
Dennis Erickson (Arizona St): 31-31 5 yrs
Tom Holmoe (Cal): 12-43 5 yrs
Jon Embree (Colorado): 4-21 2 yrs
None (Oregon):
Jerry Pettibone (Oregon St): 13-52-1
Walt Harris (Stanford): 6-17 2 yrs
Rick Neuheisel (UCLA): 21-29 4 yrs
Paul Hackett (USC): 19-18 3 yrs
None (Utah):
Tyrone Willingham (Washington): 11-37 4 yrs
Paul Wulff (Wash St): 9-40 4 yrs

SEC
Mike DuBose (Alabama): 24-23 4 yrs
John L Smith (Arkansas): 4-8 1 yr
None (Auburn):
None (Florida):
None (Georgia):
Joker Phillips (Kentucky): 13-24 3 yrs
None (LSU):
Sylvester Croom (Miss St): 21-38 5 yrs
Larry Smith (Missouri): 33-46-1 7 yrs
Ed Orgeron (Ole Miss): 10-25 3 yrs
Brad Scott (South Carolina): 23-32-1 5 yrs
Derek Dooley (Tennessee): 15-21 in 3 yrs
Mike Sherman (TAMU): 25-25 4 yrs
Robbie Caldwell (Vandy): 2-10 1 yr

Other
Rick Minter (Cincinnati): 53-63-1 10 yrs
Tyrone Willingham (Notre Dame): 21-15 3 yrs
Paul Pasqualoni (UConn): 10-18 2.5 yrs
Skip Holtz (USF): 16-21 3 yrs

lol - Tyrone Willingham makes the list for two different schools

 

[SBro44]

It still makes no sense to me.

Here is a guy with an impeccable football coaching pedigree.

At UCLA he goes to the Rose Bowl as both an offensive and defensive coach.

He is a successful DC for the Jets - under Pete Carroll.

He wins two (?) Super Bowls with the Broncos - under Mike Shanahan.

He is exposed to a series of great Head Coaches.

He is a great guy - honest, decent, personable, good looking.

And when he gets to SU he gives no indication that he had formulated any real plan for being a HC - as opposed to say, Doug Marrone, who clearly did have a plan.

After all the years of preparation. That's what truly puzzles me.

I'm with you... on paper his resume looked good.

I think a lot of it came down to not understanding SU culture. Not to beat a dead horse... he didn't really have northeast ties (coaching the Jets doesn't neccesarily expose one to NE high school football)... we never should have let Ray Rice and Courney Greene ( I think his name is the safety who ended up at Rutgers) go. I don't Coach P left the roster as depleted as some people... there was still some NFL guys on the team G-rob inherited.

Things just snowballed out of control. I don't pretend to be and X and O's expert, but I was never impressed with the play calling either... that is what shocked me the most, because he was so highly thought of at both college and Pro levels. Then we had this offense that was simple as could be, with marginal talent (Andrew Robinson bubble screen to Lavar Lobdell isn't going to win many games)... and a defense that stayed in their base the whole game (never blitzing or making the opposing offense uncomfortable

 

[OrangeXtreme]

we never should have let Ray Rice and Courney Greene ( I think his name is the safety who ended up at Rutgers) go.

How do you stop a kid from changing his mind when there's a change in the coaching staff? Shady was buzzing in Rice's ear less than 24 hours after Coach P was let go.

We certainly didn't tell Rice that he was no longer wanted here..

 

[Pyle]

4 straight losses to Rutgers
Blown out by Ty Willingham
Lose by 2 TDs to Akron
Lose to Miami(OH)
One of the most horrific offenses i've ever seen
Equipment room breakins and hookah bars

It was pretty close to Hades.

 

[MSOrange]

I'm with you... on paper his resume looked good.

I think a lot of it came down to not understanding SU culture. Not to beat a dead horse... he didn't really have northeast ties (coaching the Jets doesn't neccesarily expose one to NE high school football)... we never should have let Ray Rice and Courney Greene ( I think his name is the safety who ended up at Rutgers) go. I don't Coach P left the roster as depleted as some people... there was still some NFL guys on the team G-rob inherited.

Things just snowballed out of control. I don't pretend to be and X and O's expert, but I was never impressed with the play calling either... that is what shocked me the most, because he was so highly thought of at both college and Pro levels. Then we had this offense that was simple as could be, with marginal talent (Andrew Robinson bubble screen to Lavar Lobdell isn't going to win many games)... and a defense that stayed in their base the whole game (never blitzing or making the opposing offense uncomfortable

I agree totally with you about the northeast ties and the Syracuse culture. Great point. I just don't think he had a good plan for what it would take to be successful at Syracuse. But I live in Kansas City so unfortunately I witnessed two pretty rough years in his career when he was defensive coordinator of the Chiefs so I wasn't real excited about the hire to begin with.

 

[javadoc]

It was driven into the depths of hell IMO.

I'm with you on this one. The fact that we went bowling in year 2 of the Marrone era is more a reflection of his positives than Robinson's supposedly attenuated negatives.

Marrone said that we were the smallest and slowest team in the Big East when he arrived. On top of that, we often did not seem well-prepared in games under Robinson.

What our recent history shows is that you can resurrect a program from the abyss in short order, if you get the right guy(s). I'm sure that others could come up with similar examples at other schools.

 

[OrangePA]

I'm with you on this one. The fact that we went bowling in year 2 of the Marrone era is more a reflection of his positives than Robinson's supposedly attenuated negatives.

Marrone said that we were the smallest and slowest team in the Big East when he arrived. On top of that, we often did not seem well-prepared in games under Robinson.

What our recent history shows is that you can resurrect a program from the abyss in short order, if you get the right guy(s). I'm sure that others could come up with similar examples at other schools.

Marrone did a great - great job.

I don't think he gets the credit he deserves.

And the reason is pretty clear - the SU fan base by and large feels that he breached his promise to perform his dream job.

I know my family loved him - loved him.

And now there are many in my family who frankly wish the Bills nothing but bad luck.

So, yes, I agree - Marrone was the right guy who did a fabulous job.

 

[CanadianSU]

Dan Hawkins (Colorado) got fired in the CFL after 4 games Lol!

 

[AgentOrange]

His name should no longer be spoken on this forum. We should just refer to him as "the one we don't speak of" like in a Harry potter book. His name makes my skin crawl.

I agree, but will go so far as to suggest that his name be automatically blocked/overwritten on this site in the same manner as some of the competing message boards.

He might have seemed like a swell guy to people who met him, but he was an atrocious head football coach whose level of incompetence was utterly sickening. Because of what that clown did to my beloved SU football program, the words "hate" and "disgust" cannot even begin to describe my emotions towards him. I will never forgive or forget and none of you should either.

 

[Opus]

List of 10, with 40 clicks to read the whole thing. Lovely.

Ha, I clicked 3 times on Ron Zook and didn't get anywhere. I gave up, I can guess who was left off.

 

[rrlbees]

It was driven into the depths of hell IMO. Robinson was an all-around terrible HC, which along with PP's lack of recruiting over his last few years, combined to sink the program down to those levels. Yes, he recruited some good players but the majority of them weren't D1 talent. When you lose by 14 to Akron in the Dome, there is no explanation. People will look back on the incredible job Marrone did for this program and realize how impressive the turnaround really was. He kicked over 20 players off the team his 1st season because they were simply not going to play. He then started working with what he had and recruiting players to fit his system. He brought us to a bowl game in his 2nd year with a hacked up roster. How "abruptly" he left us isn't nearly as important as what state he left our program in, which was back to almost normal. Shafer will hopefully continue to push the envelope. I will say that Robinson's era was the depths of our football hell (at least I hope we never see anything close to that again) and that Marrone looks even that much better because of what he was able to do in 4 years. From 2003-2008, I was in a bad mood quite a bit as I'm sure the rest of you football junkies were. Moving on...

Since it's your opinion it's valid. But the fact is, the program was not driven into hell other than those 4 years. But it recovered very quickly in just the 2nd season and was ahead if where we were even before Grob. It's one thing to say he was a terrible HC, the facts bear that out. But the facts of recovery are it wasn't a program driven into the abyss. Programs in that situation takes years to recover.

 

[CuseOnly]

Since it's your opinion it's valid. But the fact is, the program was not driven into hell other than those 4 years. But it recovered very quickly in just the 2nd season and was ahead if where we were even before Grob. It's one thing to say he was a terrible HC, the facts bear that out. But the facts of recovery are it wasn't a program driven into the abyss. Programs in that situation takes years to recover.

We are still recovering and it has taken years.

 

[rrlbees]

We are still recovering and it has taken years.

We are ahead of where we were the 3 years prior to Grob. So no.

 

[MSOrange]

Bees can speak for himself. But I think he is saying that yes, we had a few horrible years but it's not like we were Kansas State before Bill Snyder took over. They had decades of being awful. Granted, Snyder had them at 5-6 in his second year but that's because he's one of the best coaches ever.

 

[HtownOrange]

Bees can speak for himself. But I think he is saying that yes, we had a few horrible years but it's not like we were Kansas State before Bill Snyder took over. They had decades of being awful. Granted, Snyder had them at 5-6 in his second year but that's because he's one of the best coaches ever.

Exactly. Coach P had the team in stagnation. Skip to today and the team has three bowl wins three tries over a four year period and most project Syracuse ego go bowling again. It's good to be an Orange fan!

 

[thorpedo]

Since it's your opinion it's valid. But the fact is, the program was not driven into hell other than those 4 years. But it recovered very quickly in just the 2nd season and was ahead if where we were even before Grob. It's one thing to say he was a terrible HC, the facts bear that out. But the facts of recovery are it wasn't a program driven into the abyss. Programs in that situation takes years to recover.

Ie. SMU after the death penalty

 

[thorpedo]

I agree, but will go so far as to suggest that his name be automatically blocked/overwritten on this site in the same manner as some of the competing message boards.

He might have seemed like a swell guy to people who met him, but he was an atrocious head football coach whose level of incompetence was utterly sickening. Because of what that clown did to my beloved SU football program, the words "hate" and "disgust" cannot even begin to describe my emotions towards him. I will never forgive or forget and none of you should either.

Done. From this moment forward we shall no longer...wait. What were we talking about again?

 

[007]

Bees can speak for himself. But I think he is saying that yes, we had a few horrible years but it's not like we were Kansas State before Bill Snyder took over. They had decades of being awful. Granted, Snyder had them at 5-6 in his second year but that's because he's one of the best coaches ever.

If Synder got them to 5-6 in his just his 2nd year, then K State couldn't have ever been in bad shape? I have a hard time following that logic stream.

 

[Phillymoose]

Since it's your opinion it's valid. But the fact is, the program was not driven into hell other than those 4 years. But it recovered very quickly in just the 2nd season and was ahead if where we were even before Grob. It's one thing to say he was a terrible HC, the facts bear that out. But the facts of recovery are it wasn't a program driven into the abyss. Programs in that situation takes years to recover.

I'm not sure I follow this logic. It really boils down to how much credit you want to give DM for the program's resurrection. The way he cleaned house and changed culture and philosophy, I'd say it was a sea change to which (NNS - name not spoken) deserves zero credit. DM did heroic, undesirable, work. Whatever NNS left behind was so thoroughly transformed by DM as to not count in his historical credit ledger.

It really just is a matter of opinion, though.

 

[RF2044]

I'm not sure I follow this logic. It really boils down to how much credit you want to give DM for the program's resurrection. The way he cleaned house and changed culture and philosophy, I'd say it was a sea change to which (NNS - name not spoken) deserves zero credit. DM did heroic, undesirable, work. Whatever NNS left behind was so thoroughly transformed by DM as to not count in his historical credit ledger.

It really just is a matter of opinion, though.

I agree with this take 100%. I also think that there were inherent factors [to bees point] that led to the program being in decline prior to when Grob took over. It wasn't all on him, in other words, but him being an abysmal head coach accelerated what had been a steady decline, and sent us careening over a cliff.

What DM accomplished following up that debacle is nothing short of miraculous, IMO, given some of the limitations [personnel, waning fanbase, $$$, facilities] restricting the program.

 

[MSOrange]

The bottom line is we were bad and none of us ever wants to go back there. I loved that 15 year or so run starting in about 1987 when we were one of the few schools that could count on having both good football and basketball teams every year. If you really think about it, not many schools can say they had a run like that in both sports.

 

[orangenirvana]

gerg

 

[billsin01]

I'm not sure I follow this logic. It really boils down to how much credit you want to give DM for the program's resurrection. The way he cleaned house and changed culture and philosophy, I'd say it was a sea change to which (NNS - name not spoken) deserves zero credit. DM did heroic, undesirable, work. Whatever NNS left behind was so thoroughly transformed by DM as to not count in his historical credit ledger.

It really just is a matter of opinion, though.

I'd agree it was a sea change but, if I'm reading Bees correctly, I think he's arguing that the program had some talent in it when GRob left, whereas it was in absolutely brutal shape from a talent standpoint when he took over. You can argue against it, but there were some really good players who ended up here under GRob -- Mike Williams, Nick Provo, Nassib, DC3 (especially pre-injury), Bailey, the Jones bros. I'm too lazy to go forward with it, but the foundation of a bowl winning team was there regardless of the house-cleaning that followed. GRob deserves some modicum of credit for that.

I don't suggest that any of that discredits or makes light of the job DM did rebuilding, but simply to suggest that, IMO, the accurate history of GRob's tenure is that he struggled miserably at being a head coach and that was his undoing. As crazy as it sounds, however, I really think the recruiting and the roster DM inherited were slightly improved from what GRob inherited in is first year. (and before anyone gets irate over my argument that P played a role in our demise, I don't care if you blame it on him or the administration, so long as you admit we were in a state of precipitous decline.)