How to Handle an Early Departure

[IthacaMatt]

Cal, K, Roy, Ricky have been harsh on their kids in the media. Is it just one particular subject manner - the NBA and being a PR stooge - where the coach is supposed to pump the breaks?

I can live with being critical of a performance, but I am not a fan of saying things like "If I had anybody else, he would never play" or what he said about McCullough "You people are saying he's in the lottery, but he can't play well against kids from Colgate" or something to that effect.

I'm tired of that crap. Seriously. Who is out there bashing their kids' chances in the NBA? Sure, coaches can be critical of performances in a particular game, but most do not say the kid is no good, or the kid is playing terrible for someone who is supposed to be better.

 

[Brooky03]

Why do some people struggle with understanding this?

People understand what you guys are saying, but they don't agree with it. NBA scouts don't give a flying fart what a college coach has to say unless it's about character issues. Pro scouts have giant egos. They're going to trust their own evaluation above anybody else's, probably including God if he was a college bball fan.

 

[Bayside44]

Were they harsh by specific player or harsh to the team overall?

I don't take notes, but notice those guys in particular pretty much say whatever they think and seem more like JB than not.

There are things I don't like about the program but the press conferences are at the bottom of that list.

 

[Brooky03]

Were they harsh by specific player or harsh to the team overall?

I know Rick is harsh on players. I've heard K criticize specific player performances in post game pressers.

I don't know/care what Cal does. He's intentionally recruiting guys with the promise he'll make them pros after a year or two, so I'd imagine he has his nose firmly lodged up their butts.

 

[Bayside44]

No, the post was not specific to Tatum. It was about how Boeheim generally speaking never encourages players to leave early for the draft. And worse than that, how he almost always tells the media how he doesn't think the player is ready. That may often be the case, but you say that to the player and his family, not the newspapers and ESPN. That makes you look like a jerk who is trying to prevent a kid from fulfilling his dream. It comes off as selfish.

If he were more balanced, then maybe talking to the media would be OK, but he's not, for the most part. He did say about Tyus Battle that he's going to be a pro for a long time at the beginning of this year, so that's good. But Battle is planning to be here for 2 years, so it doesn't ruffle Boeheim's plans.

He was good with Melo, Flynn, Wes, Dion, MCW. The guys he was harsh on are pretty much proving him out.

 

[Toga]

He was good with Melo, Flynn, Wes, Dion, MCW. The guys he was harsh on are pretty much proving him out.

Some of the concern is the optics to recruits of a coach (who in their view) could see his comments as negatively impact a player's contract. Boiled down - what does the program gain from Boeheim's comments? Nothing as far as I can see.

 

[Fly Rodder]

He was good with Melo, Flynn, Wes, Dion, MCW. The guys he was harsh on are pretty much proving him out.

Do you think anyone with talent, if they stay four years at a college program, will be a 10-year starter in the NBA?

 

[Brooky03]

Some of the concern is the optics to recruits of a coach (who in their view) could see his comments as negatively impact a player's contract. Boiled down - what does the program gain from Boeheim's comments? Nothing as far as I can see.

Not all recruits are built the same. For every recruit who is turned off by the program because JB gives honest assessments of a player's talent or NBA readiness, there's a recruit who appreciates the fact that he'll get exactly that from coach.

I'd argue that any player who would avoid a school because the coach levies honest criticism is a prima donna who we wouldn't want here anyway. At best, it's a player severely lacking self confidence.

 

[Brooky03]

Do you think anyone with talent, if they stay four years at a college program, will be a 10-year starter in the NBA?

There are lots of examples of 3 and 4 year guys making it big in the NBA. Guys who played in the OAD era.

 

[Fly Rodder]

There are lots of examples of 4 year guys making it big in the NBA. Guys who played in the OAD era.

That's not what I'm asking.

 

[tbonezone]

why am i getting this sinking sensation kennard and the duke core will return . that's a head scratcher.

 

[Brooky03]

That's not what I'm asking.

What are you asking then? I thought it was straight forward. There are guys who have stayed who made it big and will have 10+ year careers.

 

[Fly Rodder]

why am i getting this sinking sensation kennard and the duke core will return . that's a head scratcher.

Maybe K is a better recruiter than JAB. Maybe they're getting promises that if they return they will be taken care of by Duke.
"Duke's pitch was just like, if I come to Duke, I'll be set for life," Diallo said." It's just a great school, all in all, you know?"

 

[Fly Rodder]

What are you asking then? I thought it was straight forward. There are guys who have stayed who made it big and will have 10+ year careers.

I was meaning for the Syracuse guys compared to others. Posters like to slag on Greene and others for leaving early and not becoming 10-year starters (although, to be honest I can't for the life of me pin down what any naysayers seems to think the average expectation is for a draft pick). Does Bayside think Greene et al would have had longer more successful careers had they stayed in school? Does that go for everyone? Why aren't all college seniors NBA stars?

The NBA is insanely difficult to be successful in for any length of time. Staying in school for four years vs leaving early doesn't guarantee squat.

 

[OttoMets]

He's not supposed to lie to them, but it doesn't mean he has to provide the same evaluation to the media that he does privately to the player. The principle; if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all (at least publicly) might really apply here.

Agree, except in extraordinary circumstances. I'm not knocking Boeheim for the McCullough comments - that whole situation was ridiculous. But when he says the same thing three or four years in a row, it's the boy who cried wolf, the valid criticism is lost in the whining and loses its bite. Bad look, best to keep it positive.

 

[IthacaMatt]

He was good with Melo, Flynn, Wes, Dion, MCW. The guys he was harsh on are pretty much proving him out.

I agree on the first four, but not so sure about MCW. I'd have to go back and look at some articles. Certainly he was against Jeremi Grant going, he was against McCullough, he was against Ennis and he has really slagged a lot of his players harshly in the press these past few years.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Maybe K is a better recruiter than JAB. Maybe they're getting promises that if they return they will be taken care of by Duke.
"Duke's pitch was just like, if I come to Duke, I'll be set for life," Diallo said." It's just a great school, all in all, you know?"

Or maybe they are just better built for the college game and not NBA talents.

 

[Cheriehoop]

The crux seems to be if people expect honesty or just platitudes from JB. I don't think he's a platitude, coach-speak type guy. We love it when it fits what one wants to hear thus his description as a straight shooter, honest, straight forward etc and certainly works against him when it isn't what we'd prefer to hear. I bet what he says isn't different from what he tells them privately so he's certainly not two faced about it. The NBA drafts on potential not accomplishment - if the questions were about potential development if given time or ability to earn fast money not current readiness or NBA longevity ,his answers would probably be framed as being more PC. He didn't say the same things about Dion, MCW, Malachi, Melo as he did about McCollough, Ennis, Grant, Lydon . Here's what he said about MCW:
“Michael has informed me of his intention to enter the NBA Draft. He’s coming off a tremendous season and we appreciate all he’s done for Syracuse basketball. We wish Michael the best of luck as he pursues a pro career.”

He also understood why Greene left but knew it wouldn't give him the best chance to succeed long term in the NBA as Greene has now confirmed saying he should have stayed.

It's also one thing to test the waters which Boeheim has encouraged vs making one's decision and signing with an agent before even getting all the NBA feedback. JB has worked with NBA guys for over a decade in the Olympics so he knows what skill set, athleticism, development, work ethic goes into having a long career in the NBA. Players and parents hear what they want to hear and obviously what JB, other coaches (reflected with conference, national voting awards etc) or NBA pundits etc say is irrelevant anyways.

 

[OttoMets]

I was meaning for the Syracuse guys compared to others. Posters like to slag on Greene and others for leaving early and not becoming 10-year starters (although, to be honest I can't for the life of me pin down what any naysayers seems to think the average expectation is for a draft pick). Does Bayside think Greene et al would have had longer more successful careers had they stayed in school? Does that go for everyone? Why aren't all college seniors NBA stars?

The NBA is insanely difficult to be successful in for any length of time. Staying in school for four years vs leaving early doesn't guarantee squat.

In some cases I think that's true.

Most high-level recruits are hard workers. Some are more mature than others. Nobody's going to make it in the NBA without some level of maturity. So successful pros are either going to be talented kids who a) are unusually grounded teenagers, b) kids who pick themselves up by the bootstraps and learn as they go, or c) kids who benefit hugely from a quick college tutorial on what it takes to be focused and successful.

Greene, not criticizing him as a person, I believe would fall into the third category. He was just a goofy kid. Ended up with some bad luck with injuries, I think. But maybe another year really could've helped him develop some improved habits to give himself more staying power.

Just speculation.

 

[Fly Rodder]

NBA Draft Analysis -- Expected value of a pick

So at a glance you can see the first five picks tend towards stars and solid types with no complete busts. The 6-10 range show about 1/3 of the picks reaching star status, but lots of role players as well. The mid first round (11-20) is much more a crap shoot with as many busts as stars. Late first round (21-30) only 6% of picks become stars, and less than half even make it to role player caliber stats.

This is almost 10 years old, but it gives a decent framework for anyone to explore just how difficult it is to be an NBA starter for any length of time and what a crapshoot the draft is outside of the first handful of picks.

 

[Brooky03]

I was meaning for the Syracuse guys compared to others. Posters like to slag on Greene and others for leaving early and not becoming 10-year starters (although, to be honest I can't for the life of me pin down what any naysayers seems to think the average expectation is for a draft pick). Does Bayside think Greene et al would have had longer more successful careers had they stayed in school? Does that go for everyone? Why aren't all college seniors NBA stars?

The NBA is insanely difficult to be successful in for any length of time. Staying in school for four years vs leaving early doesn't guarantee squat.

We haven't had talented guys stay long enough during the OAD era to know. Warrick and Christmas are the closest we've got. Warrick had a good career and it looks like Christmas will stick around a little longer at least.

The difference is NBA readiness vs. draft stock. They're unrelated, which is perhaps the hardest thing for JB to wrap his head around. As a coach, he wants to send NBA ready players to the NBA. Players, rightly so, want to go when their draft stock is as high as it's going to get. Ennis, Grant, and Lydon left early because they didn't think their draft stock would improve. That's fine, but it's also fine for JB to say they're not NBA ready because they're not or weren't. Ennis has struggled mightily from day 1 and Grant lucked out by landing on the Sixers where he could get playing time right away on a terrible team.

McCullough would have been a lottery pick if he came back for another year.

 

[Ward]

We haven't had talented guys stay long enough during the OAD era to know. Warrick and Christmas are the closest we've got. Warrick had a good career and it looks like Christmas will stick around a little longer at least.

The difference is NBA readiness vs. draft stock. They're unrelated, which is perhaps the hardest thing for JB to wrap his head around. As a coach, he wants to send NBA ready players to the NBA. Players, rightly so, want to go when their draft stock is as high as it's going to get. Ennis, Grant, and Lydon left early because they didn't think their draft stock would improve. That's fine, but it's also fine for JB to say they're not NBA ready because they're not or weren't. Ennis has struggled mightily from day 1 and Grant lucked out by landing on the Sixers where he could get playing time right away on a terrible team.

McCullough would have been a lottery pick if he came back for another year.

With around the clock rehab in a professional organization with access to great trainers and medical staff he didn't take the floor again until the middle of February of the next season. You think playing ~10 games after taking a year off and probably playing center in the middle of the zone that would have propelled him into the lottery?

 

[Fly Rodder]

As a coach, he wants to send NBA ready players to the NBA. Players, rightly so, want to go when their draft stock is as high as it's going to get

I think this is accurate. I just don't think that staying in school turns a marginal NBA player into something any better, which is what some posters seem to think. That by staying four years automatically turns someone into a an NBA starter. Outside of the true basketball talents that go in the top-5 or so, it's hit or miss. The average production by draft pick or tier bears that out.

That's fine, but it's also fine for JB to say they're not NBA ready because they're not or weren't.

And as, Toga posted earlier, how does that help SU in anyway? Privately give them honest evaluations, provide them the information they need, and whatever their decision, then publicly wish them the best of luck and thank them for playing at SU. Disparaging players to the press is just pointless and juvenile. I think JAB has a good eye for NBA skills, but his public attitude is unbecoming and not something I admire in him.

 

[chugg21]

He'd probably say something negative about Jonathan Issac too but he's about to go in the top 7. That kid is as frail as Ingram was last year but if you can go in the 1st round then you need to go. Lydon is an old Soph after prepping and he doesn't have the demeanor to take 18 shots a game to really boost his stats so his stock is in the 18-30 range this year, next year, last year, whenever. He's hopefully going to be a 3 and D guy as a stretch 4 and carve out a nice little 8 year journeyman career.

 

[Brooky03]

With around the clock rehab in a professional organization with access to great trainers and medical staff he didn't take the floor again until the middle of February of the next season. You think playing ~10 games after taking a year off and probably playing center in the middle of the zone that would have propelled him into the lottery?

Brooklyn didn't need him, so his rehab was extended about a month longer than it needed to be based on reports. Rehab is rehab, and Syracuse has access to some pretty darn good doctors and trainers. There wouldn't have been much difference in the rehab regimen, but Cuse probably would have put him back on the court when he was ready (low re-injury risk) instead of waiting at least a few weeks more than necessary to protect a multi-million dollar investment.

If he came back for most of conference play and played well, showing improvement as postseason came around, he would have shot back up into the lottery. He was a lotto pick who dropped out of the lottery because of the uncertainty around the injury. Take away that uncertainty and his draft stock jumps a ton.