I think there's too much precipice fear here

[Chip]

Schiano took 5 years to make a bowl, in a home state chock full of football recruits.

Marrone did it in 2, without that same home state talent source.

RF, you know that program was much more buried than us. It's what we've spent countless hours on this board confirming. They had no history, no brand, no one from that state even considered that a school to attend. In ALL those years of its history, it went to exactly one bowl, and that was a short term bowl that was created in its own state. It was about as dead as Kansas State, but Bill Snyder took them to better places than Schiano achieved.

I think it's obvious that Marrone had some defensive talent to work with. And as bad as we were in 2008, we were still able to beat Louisville and ND, we were beating Pitt & WVU in the 4th quarter. Which to me says there were a few guys who could actually play football, their leadership just got in the way most of the time, especially prepping them to start the year. When people think of 2008, they think of Akron, and that's about it.

 

[RF2044]

RF, you know that program was much more buried than us. It's what we've spent countless hours on this board confirming. They had no history, no brand, no one from that state even considered that a school to attend. In ALL those years of its history, it went to exactly one bowl, and that was a short term bowl that was created in its own state. It was about as dead as Kansas State, but Bill Snyder took them to better places than Schiano achieved.

I think it's obvious that Marrone had some defensive talent to work with. And as bad as we were in 2008, we were still able to beat Louisville and ND, we were beating Pitt & WVU in the 4th quarter. Which to me says there were a few guys who could actually play football, their leadership just got in the way most of the time, especially prepping them to start the year. When people think of 2008, they think of Akron, and that's about it.

There is no doubt that RU had a bigger historical cess pool to climb out of than we did in 2009. No argument there. Historically, they might be the worst D1 program in history.

Big picture, scheme of all college football history, taking Rutgers from crap to a bowl is probably more impressive. But Schiano built more slowly, in a talent rich state where it was easier to get solid players, and he scheduled hs way to wins, which we did not. I'll also add that their ascendence to mediocrity only occurred when we were at our lowest point--so some of their improvement came at our expense, because our slipping program opened the door for them.

But in terms of who turned the team around quicker with fewer resources at his disposal, it was Marrone--hands down. Bowl in year 2; two bowls in 3 years. And it would have been three consecutive if we hadn't gotten decimated by injuries in 2011.

And I'll argue that while there was talent on those Syracuse teams, we were as bad as Rutgers under GRob.

 

[Orangepace]

MD is not a top 10 defense.

Think he was referring to ND and Louisville. Louisville is currently the #1 defense in the country in YPG.

 

[GoSU96]

schiano's fifth year

roster was horrendous, way worse than what gerg left

i think if marrone's a savior, so is schiano. rutgers was down for a much longer time before him. but i don't think schiano worked miracles, he was just ok, which looks miraculous in comparison to the bums before him

Rutgers prior 4 years:

10-34

2000 - 94th in rushing, 39th in passing, 93rd passing , 82nd total offense, 85th in scoring, 111th in rushing defense, 32nd pass def, 93rd Pass Def, 100th total defense, 108th scoring defense.

Four years later 12-34. Shea's last year they averaged 21.4 pts per game, 4 yrs later 24.5.

2004 4-7 113th rushing, 6th passing, 48th passing efficiency, 40th total offense, 66th scoring, 80th in rushing def, 97 pass def, 100 pass def, 104th total defense, 88th in scoring.

Syracuse prior four years

10-37
2008: 55th rushing offense, 113th passing, 113th pass , 114th total offense, 108th scoring, 101st rushing def, 83rd pass defense, 101st pass def, 111th total defense, 104th scoring defense

Four years later 25-25

2012 - 8-5, 40th in rushing, 29th passing, 37th pass , 29th total off, 55th scoring, 43 rush def, 63rd pass def, 91st pass def, 48th total defense, 46th scoring defense.

Robinson 2008 18.9pts per game, 2012 30.1

While Rutgers had a long history of futility looking at the level of performance when they were taken over Syracuse was in worse shape. And even if you say they were comparable, what Marrone accomplished in four years vs Shiano, is orders of magnitude better with a less resources.

It's not even close.

 

[Orangepace]

That's one way to look at it. Here's another--it took a herculean effort from Marrone to get us even on the outskirts of the neighborhood of respectibility post-GRob. We were literally the worst P5 program in college football. At the end of his four years, we still weren't recruiting all that well, and we didn't necessarily have replacements lined up for Nassib / Lemon / Sales. And with all that, we still only got to the 7-8 win plateau.

Marrone left with the job unfinished--with the program literally teetering on the precipice that you're denying. We could very easily backslide into losing football. That's why I was encouraged by this staff's first season--it wasn't great by any means, but the team rallied and showed lots of promise for the future. In other words, they looked like a crew that could take the rebuild, build upon the foundation that Marrone established, and quite possibly get us to the next level. In year two, they've pretty much dispelled that notion.

I hope they turn things around, I really do. But I think we're a lot closer to the losing football end of the scale than we are to top 25 as things stand today. Sorry, but that's how I see it. I have very little confidence in Shafer right now, and starting over with a new staff seems like we'd take additional steps backwards before we'd be able to hopefully move forward.

Marrone did a great job while here. I won't argue that. He left it unfinished, won't argue that. I'm with Millhouse though on the overall. Things aren't nearly as bad as you're indicating. You can be confident that the program isn't going to fall back into the GRob years. This staff has had to improve the talent. By all accounts, they've been doing just that in their extremely limited time on the Hill. They've had to do so in a much tougher conference than Marrone had to battle. The line I bolded is absolutely ridiculous right now. The sample size is still too small to really cast judgement on the staff as a whole. I always knew in the back of my mind that Lester was brought on to replace McDonald when he departed, no matter the fashion, as long as Shafer remained in the driver seat. I am still of the belief that Shafer may have acted a little too soon in demoting McDonald, but if it means he's comfortable in accelerating his timeline on Lester, so be it. It's his call. This team is better off today than it was two years ago as a whole. The problem is these guys are 1 full recruiting cycle into improving the talent. You have to raise the bottom before the top, unless you're lucky enough to catch lightning in a bottle. They've raised the bottom with their 1 full cycle recruiting class and by all measures are on pace to do it again with their second if it holds up. Marrone did it emerging from the GRob years and now Shafer is doing it again. It's mind boggling that some here cannot see it.

 

[rrlbees]

You dislike him because you didn't like his offensive gameplan here, and now you're mad that he's the bills HC. To take that crap team he inherited from GRob and coach them to bowl eligibility--and a win--in his second year was nothing short of miraculous.

Which means there was some talent in that team. 2012 further validated that in some spots.

Some of you have to decide what you want. If it's nothing more than what we were before Grob, we're already there and hVe been. 16-20 the 3 years prior to when Grob was hired. If we want to get to where we were in the 90's and early 2000's, that's another story.

 

[Chip]

While Rutgers had a long history of futility looking at the level of performance when they were taken over Syracuse was in worse shape.

Did you really just use the stats from 2008 vs 2000 to make this point?

How come wins don't play into this? And who the wins were against.

I think it's an insult to SU to say they were ever, at any point in our storied history, in worse shape than Rutgers was at the end of the century. You just kind of gloss over that long history of futility and then say but they were higher in total offense, they were 85th!

 

[RF2044]

Marrone did a great job while here. I won't argue that. He left it unfinished, won't argue that. I'm with Millhouse though on the overall. Things aren't nearly as bad as you're indicating. You can be confident that the program isn't going to fall back into the GRob years. This staff has had to improve the talent. By all accounts, they've been doing just that in their extremely limited time on the Hill. They've had to do so in a much tougher conference than Marrone had to battle. The line I bolded is absolutely ridiculous right now. The sample size is still too small to really cast judgement on the staff as a whole. I always knew in the back of my mind that Lester was brought on to replace McDonald when he departed, no matter the fashion, as long as Shafer remained in the driver seat. I am still of the belief that Shafer may have acted a little too soon in demoting McDonald, but if it means he's comfortable in accelerating his timeline on Lester, so be it. It's his call. This team is better off today than it was two years ago as a whole. The problem is these guys are 1 full recruiting cycle into improving the talent. You have to raise the bottom before the top, unless you're lucky enough to catch lightning in a bottle. They've raised the bottom with their 1 full cycle recruiting class and by all measures are on pace to do it again with their second if it holds up. Marrone did it emerging from the GRob years and now Shafer is doing it again. It's mind boggling that some here cannot see it.

What's mind boggling to me is how cavalierly you make that claim.

I don't think we're going to back slide into GRob-ian dysfunction. We're now in the ACC, we've got the IPF coming, and conference revenues are much better than they were before. On all of those dimensions, we are in a much more advantageous place than we were.

In terms of how "bad" they are, it really depends on what you believe about Shafer. I don't agree with you that Shafer "is doing it again." He looked very solid in year one, and had the majority of proven talent returning in year 2, and we're under performing. Yes, recruiting has been better in the last two classes, but that progress might come to a screeching halt if we start losing again [and who knows what type of impact losing GMcD might have, given that he is the ace recruiter on the staff]. Shafer is a big queston mark--I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise.

If you're inclined to believe that Shafer is the guy, then I guess I can see why you'd be optimisitc. But my confidence in him is lower now than at any point since he was originally hired. And I'm not sure that the University is fully committed to making the investment spend required to compete in big time college football. The foundation is already in place--it's time to build upon that and start winning, not tread water or back slide out of bowl eligibility.

So while we probably aren't going to regress back into the primordial ooze [which I never claimed--the concerns I'm expressing are not about program stability, but on field performance], I am greatly concerned about this staff's ability to win consistently. I also think you're making a lot of assumptions about Shafer's capabilities of getting us to the next level. I'd like to believe that's the case, but what I'm seeing on the field is an unprepared team and an unprepared group on he sidelines.

 

[GoSU96]

Did you really just use the stats from 2008 vs 2000 to make this point?

How come wins don't play into this? And who the wins were against.

I think it's an insult to SU to say they were ever, at any point in our storied history, in worse shape than Rutgers was at the end of the century. You just kind of gloss over that long history of futility and then say but they were higher in total offense, they were 85th!

Yeah it was an insult the levels that Robinson took the program.

How do wins come into what? 10-34 vs 10-37, 12-34 vs 25 -25. Seems pretty clear to me.

I'll mention this for the 100oth time about the level the program was at.

Rankings 2005 through 2008

Total offense, 115th, 110th, 114th, 114th, Rushing 105th, 97th, 118th, 55th, Passing 105th, 103rd, 55th, 113th, Pass , 115th, 86th, 72nd, 113th, scoring, 114th, 102nd, 116th, 108th.

Total def, 57th, 107th, 111th, 101st, rushing def, 97th, 110th, 108th, 101st, Pass def, 21st, 76th, 102nd, 83rd, Pass Def, 37th, 81st, 109th, 101st, scoring def, 67th, 72nd, 104th, 101st.

Go find another program with that consistent worst of the worst level of performance.

 

[supp]

My only question is whether it's easier to pull out of a death spiral in the BE than in the ACC, especially in our division? Not a rhetorical question. Don't have an answer for it. Genuinely asking.

 

[Millhouse]

Rutgers prior 4 years:

10-34

2000 - 94th in rushing, 39th in passing, 93rd passing , 82nd total offense, 85th in scoring, 111th in rushing defense, 32nd pass def, 93rd Pass Def, 100th total defense, 108th scoring defense.

Four years later 12-34. Shea's last year they averaged 21.4 pts per game, 4 yrs later 24.5.

2004 4-7 113th rushing, 6th passing, 48th passing efficiency, 40th total offense, 66th scoring, 80th in rushing def, 97 pass def, 100 pass def, 104th total defense, 88th in scoring.

Syracuse prior four years

10-37
2008: 55th rushing offense, 113th passing, 113th pass , 114th total offense, 108th scoring, 101st rushing def, 83rd pass defense, 101st pass def, 111th total defense, 104th scoring defense

Four years later 25-25

2012 - 8-5, 40th in rushing, 29th passing, 37th pass , 29th total off, 55th scoring, 43 rush def, 63rd pass def, 91st pass def, 48th total defense, 46th scoring defense.

Robinson 2008 18.9pts per game, 2012 30.1

While Rutgers had a long history of futility looking at the level of performance when they were taken over Syracuse was in worse shape. And even if you say they were comparable, what Marrone accomplished in four years vs Shiano, is orders of magnitude better with a less resources.

It's not even close.

This might only prove how bad Robinson was

you can suck because you have no talent at all or you can suck because your head coach is the worst head coach ever.

i think marrone's roster in year 2 was better than schiano's

schiano needed to recruit. nobody who made a difference in marrone's year 2 was recruited by him.

 

[SU2NASA]

My only question is whether it's easier to pull out of a death spiral in the BE than in the ACC, especially in our division? Not a rhetorical question. Don't have an answer for it. Genuinely asking.

I think the biggest challenge we'll have is if we fall out of a Louisville-level, which I think we were at going into this season, into a fight for the bottom with BC, WF, and Pitt. And Pitt might even emerge to that Louisville type level and then it's the three of us battling for scraps, and our seasons can rank from 4-8 to 8-4, whereas we should be between 6-6 and 10-2 in my opinion.

 

[Millhouse]

SU had 9 guys drafted in Marrone's 4 years
RU had 3 drafted in Schiano's first 4

SU had 4 in Marrone's first 2 years
RU had 1 in Schiano's first 2 years.

unreasonable to expect Schiano to have won a bowl in year 2. Their roster sucked.

 

[OrangePA]

schiano's fifth year

roster was horrendous, way worse than what gerg left

i think if marrone's a savior, so is schiano. rutgers was down for a much longer time before him. but i don't think schiano worked miracles, he was just ok, which looks miraculous in comparison to the bums before him

I think you're having fun with us.

You have to recall a few things. First Rutgers plowed a lot of money into its program before Schiano became HC.

It built a really nice stadium and added additional football infrastructure.

Second, few recall that Doug Graber had developed a solid program that included a number of strong athletes including the QB Lucas, Marco Battaglia and others, before he was fired.

I recall one game at Rutgers where last team Graber's team had McNabb on the run and lost in very close game.

Terry Shea screwed up but he inherited a program that was close and well funded.

Indeed, by the time Schiano came around the Rutgers administration was fully committed and fully invested in the football program.

So, I think Rutgers was much farther along in the process when it hired Schiano than Syracuse University was when it hired Doug Marrone.

I'm pretty sure that Schiano after nine years still had a sub .500 record.

And by year two, Marrone was right there with Schiano.

Marrone is a far superior coach and I think the record proves that.

 

[Chip]

I think you're having fun with us.

You have to recall a few things. First Rutgers plowed a lot of money into its program before Schiano became HC.

It built a really nice stadium and added additional football infrastructure.

Second, few recall that Doug Graber had developed a solid program that included a number of strong athletes including the QB Lucas, Marco Battaglia and others, before he was fired.

I recall one game at Rutgers where last team Graber's team had McNabb on the run and lost in very close game.

Terry Shea screwed up but he inherited a program that was close and well funded.

Indeed, by the time Schiano came around the Rutgers administration was fully committed and fully invested in the football program.

So, I think Rutgers was much farther along in the process when it hired Schiano than Syracuse University was when it hired Doug Marrone.

I'm pretty sure that Schiano after nine years still had a sub .500 record.

And by year two, Marrone was right there with Schiano.

Marrone is a far superior coach and I think the record proves that.

Your last point is correct, and no one is arguing that specifically. Marrone beat him (badly) in year 1. It was instantly obvious who the better football coach was.

I don't think your timeline is correct on Rutgers though. They had some offensive talent that you mentioned in 1995 (very good RB and WR too, but their names escape me). I don't think that's when they decided to start funding the program though. I'll defer to you if you really know, but I seem to recall them pumping their money into the program after Schiano, probably at his urging. It wasn't like he was a high priced hire. He just looked like they were trying another unproven coordinator, but at least he was a local.

 

[Millhouse]

I think you're having fun with us.

You have to recall a few things. First Rutgers plowed a lot of money into its program before Schiano became HC.

It built a really nice stadium and added additional football infrastructure.

Second, few recall that Doug Graber had developed a solid program that included a number of strong athletes including the QB Lucas, Marco Battaglia and others, before he was fired.

I recall one game at Rutgers where last team Graber's team had McNabb on the run and lost in very close game.

Terry Shea screwed up but he inherited a program that was close and well funded.

Indeed, by the time Schiano came around the Rutgers administration was fully committed and fully invested in the football program.

So, I think Rutgers was much farther along in the process when it hired Schiano than Syracuse University was when it hired Doug Marrone.

I'm pretty sure that Schiano after nine years still had a sub .500 record.

And by year two, Marrone was right there with Schiano.

Marrone is a far superior coach and I think the record proves that.

everyone looked at drafted players to prove how terrible Gerg was right off the bat.

why is it nuts to look at drafted guys?

greg robinson was awful. he hired horrible coaches, had no idea what he wanted to do, had no idea how to defend, and inherited really bad linebackers, receivers and QBs

go look at Schiano's roster when he started. it looks like a page out of a phone book, no one recognizeable.

you guys are trying really hard to avoid being objective about "miraculous" jobs by setting really arbitrary cherry picked markers. marrone won a bowl in year 2. "in order to be miraculous one must win a bowl in year 2"

never mind that schiano and marrone had the same record their third year.

schiano sucks, i think he's a bozo. but my whole point is that people overreact to Gerg. we had a terrible coach. we got rid of him. it doesn't have to be so much more profound than that.

part of the reason i picked schiano is because i thought i've made myself clear that i think he's a ridiculous monkey who is clearly no miracle worker. but if rutgers going .500 isn't a miracle, then neither is syracuse

 

[bevosu]

At least we never got Cumberland bad.

Big Score for Georgia Tech, After Alumnus Wins Bid for a Relic
By MIKE TIERNEY

Kevin Liles for The New York Times
The ball from Georgia Tech’s 222-0 rout of Cumberland in 1916. Tech never threw a pass or recorded a first down because it scored with ease.

Ryan Schneider, who paid $40,388 for the ball from Georgia Tech’s 220-0 rout of Cumberland 98 years ago, plans to present it to the university.

 

[GoSU96]

This might only prove how bad Robinson was

you can suck because you have no talent at all or you can suck because your head coach is the worst head coach ever.

i think marrone's roster in year 2 was better than schiano's

schiano needed to recruit. nobody who made a difference in marrone's year 2 was recruited by him.

You mean other 4 of 5 of the OL, the TE, one of the starting WR's, the FB, 3 out of 8 of the DL two deep, 1 of 3 starting LB's, or 4 of 8 of the DB's. Or the PK.

Nope none of those guys made a difference.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Sort of like Ottoingrotto going on about the wonderful identity the McDonald offense was building

McDonald had issues, but picking an identity for the offense wasn't one of them. What we were trying to do was a move in the right direction.

 

[GoSU96]

SU had 9 guys drafted in Marrone's 4 years
RU had 3 drafted in Schiano's first 4

SU had 4 in Marrone's first 2 years
RU had 1 in Schiano's first 2 years.

unreasonable to expect Schiano to have won a bowl in year 2. Their roster sucked.

That's your counter, unbelievably lame.

 

[GoSU96]

everyone looked at drafted players to prove how terrible Gerg was right off the bat.

why is it nuts to look at drafted guys?

greg robinson was awful. he hired horrible coaches, had no idea what he wanted to do, had no idea how to defend, and inherited really bad linebackers, receivers and QBs

go look at Schiano's roster when he started. it looks like a page out of a phone book, no one recognizeable.

you guys are trying really hard to avoid being objective about "miraculous" jobs by setting really arbitrary cherry picked markers. marrone won a bowl in year 2. "in order to be miraculous one must win a bowl in year 2"

never mind that schiano and marrone had the same record their third year.

schiano sucks, i think he's a bozo. but my whole point is that people overreact to Gerg. we had a terrible coach. we got rid of him. it doesn't have to be so much more profound than that.

part of the reason i picked schiano is because i thought i've made myself clear that i think he's a ridiculous monkey who is clearly no miracle worker. but if rutgers going .500 isn't a miracle, then neither is syracuse

It took 11 seasons for Schiano to get to 68 and 67.

 

[GoSU96]

McDonald had issues, but picking an identity for the offense wasn't one of them. What we were trying to do was a move in the right direction.

That was CLEARLY evident.

 

[OrangePA]

Your last point is correct, and no one is arguing that specifically. Marrone beat him (badly) in year 1. It was instantly obvious who the better football coach was.

I don't think your timeline is correct on Rutgers though. They had some offensive talent that you mentioned in 1995 (very good RB and WR too, but their names escape me). I don't think that's when they decided to start funding the program though. I'll defer to you if you really know, but I seem to recall them pumping their money into the program after Schiano, probably at his urging. It wasn't like he was a high priced hire. He just looked like they were trying another unproven coordinator, but at least he was a local.

I think I attended every SU v. Rutgers game at Rutgers under Graber.

By the time he got there - from the Tampa Bay Bucs if I recall correctly - the new stadium had been built - it looked like a mini Giants Stadium - and big money was being spent.

Rutgers probably upped the ante a bit when Schiano arrived, but the school was firmly committed well before he got there.

Syracuse University was not committed during that time period and as a result Rutgers and others including Va Tech and UConn took advantage and moved ahead in the facilities war.

Indeed, it was during that time period that the "canary" was dying in the SU Football Coal Mine - and nobody noticed.

Really frustrating.

 

[Millhouse]

That's your counter, unbelievably lame.

a lot less lame than goofing on autistic kids

you have a crappy memory for your arguments about gerg

and no i don't have links to defunct boards, so go ahead and pat yourself on the back that i can't prove it to you

 

[rrlbees]

I think I attended every SU v. Rutgers game at Rutgers under Graber. By the time he got there - from the Tampa Bay Bucs if I recall correctly - the new stadium had been built - it looked like a mini Giants Stadium - and big money was being spent. Rutgers probably upped the ante a bit when Schiano arrived, but the school was firmly committed well before he got there. Syracuse University was not committed during that time period and as a result Rutgers and others including Va Tech and UConn took advantage and moved ahead in the facilities war. Indeed, it was during that time period that the "canary" was dying in the SU Football Coal Mine - and nobody noticed. Really frustrating.

Rutgers became committed with taxpayer money.