If anyone is doubting Babers as THE guy...

[All4SU]

Still in the boat, but hard not to be disappointed with the last six quarters of absolutely terrible football. The "believe without evidence" credo is being sorely tested and the "consistently good, not occasionally great" mantra is giving way to a polar opposite.

Easy to rationalize but I expected more this year - even before the Clemson win. Going to take some time to regain the optimism - a strong game against BC will be somewhat critical here - but without a substantial step forward next year questions will arise if we are indeed on the right path.

I've got 34 quarters in favor and 10 against. That's still way ahead of where we were. Frustrating? Yes of course. Evidence of failure? No, of course not.

 

[kcsu]

So it sounds like working on an extension makes sense just to keep a healthy buyout in place.

The buyout is positive in two respects.
It obviously can deter all but the strongest suitors and it provides a war chest to hire the next staff.

 

[Alsacs]

They had a coaching change but not some wild talent turnaround since Clawson took over. They are still getting the same types of guys that they always did.

Wake has outrecruited Syracuse.
They have gotten ESPN 300 recruits.
Syracuse didn’t have a single one till DeVito.

Wake was 2 years ahead of us in rebuilding this year.
Scott Shafer as HC doesn’t beat Wake this year.

 

[Pyle]

Wake has outrecruited Syracuse.
They have gotten ESPN 300 recruits.
Syracuse didn’t have a single one till DeVito.

Wake was 2 years ahead of us in rebuilding this year.
Scott Shafer as HC doesn’t beat Wake this year.

Where is their 300 recruit? They got a stud DT last year but he's still a frosh. The guys who beat us were mainly 2013 - 2015 recruits.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

Wake has outrecruited Syracuse.
They have gotten ESPN 300 recruits.
Syracuse didn’t have a single one till DeVito.

Wake was 2 years ahead of us in rebuilding this year.
Scott Shafer as HC doesn’t beat Wake this year.

Wake, BC and NC State are our peer talent schools in our division. None has significantly outrecruited in talent (based upon composite recruiting rankings) us in the past 5 seasons. The lack of talent angle versus peer schools is way overplayed on this site.

 

[Alsacs]

Where is their 300 recruit? They got a stud DT last year but he's still a frosh. The guys who beat us were mainly 2013 - 2015 recruits.

2015 Bowman Archibald

 

[Alsacs]

Wake, BC and NC State are our peer talent schools in our division. None has significantly outrecruited in talent (based upon composite recruiting rankings) us in the past 5 seasons. The lack of talent angle versus peer schools is way overplayed on this site.

If you think we have talent on par with NC State no way.
BC yes
Wake yes
They have comparable talent but they have more higher guys.

We don’t have the top 300 guys till DeVito.

Scott Shafer couldn’t recruit.
Babers is doing better.

Our talent is improving and comparing the Wake Shafer faced to the Wake Babers faced is different.

Shafer was a boob.
I can’t say that enough.

 

[721Comstock]

Wake, BC and NC State are our peer talent schools in our division. None has significantly outrecruited in talent (based upon composite recruiting rankings) us in the past 5 seasons. The lack of talent angle versus peer schools is way overplayed on this site.

The "rankings" for SU in the pre-Dino era include our "best" recruits - almost NONE of whom actually ever made it to campus due to being academic reaches, and the small few who did, never panned out.

So, as mediocre as they were, they are skewed "higher" under Shafer than what he ever actually landed on campus and played in games.
Which means we were, in actuality, quite a bit behind those peer programs for recruiting under FHCSMFS.
And it showed then, and shows now.

More importantly, Wake, State, and BC have been recruiting to their systems for 1-2+ years longer than we have.
That matters. A LOT.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

2015 Bowman Archibald

Never played a down for WFU. Transferred before frosh. year and never played D-1 football.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

The "rankings" for SU in the pre-Dino era include our "best" recruits - almost NONE of whom actually ever made it to campus due to being academic reaches, and the small few who did, never panned out.

So, as mediocre as they were, they are skewed "higher" under Shafer than what he ever actually landed on campus and played in games.
Which means we were, in actuality, quite a bit behind those peer programs for recruiting under FHCSMFS.
And it showed then, and shows now.

More importantly, Wake, State, and BC have been recruiting to their systems for 1-2+ years longer than we have.
That matters. A LOT.

Happens at every school in the P5. It's interesting to me how our fans think that injuries, transfers, no shows etc. are exclusive to our team. Although it may seem that way at times they aren't.

 

[Alsacs]

Never played a down for WFU. Transferred before frosh. year and never played D-1 football.

So basically it was like all Shafer’s best recruits.

It doesn’t change the fact Shafer faced completely rebuilding Wake teams and thus it’s not comparable to this year.

Wake is 7-4 and if they beat Duke will be close to the top 25.

Scott Shafer as HC doesn’t beat Wake this year.

 

[CousCuse]

Scott Shafer had a good running back in place and he wouldn't have needed Dungey to take the entire offense on his back.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

So basically it was like all Shafer’s best recruits.

It doesn’t change the fact Shafer faced completely rebuilding Wake teams and thus it’s not comparable to this year.

Wake is 7-4 and if they beat Duke will be close to the top 25.

Scott Shafer as HC doesn’t beat Wake this year.

The continued use of Shafer as a reason for this teams failures is weak imo. He's not our head coach.

I am behind Babers and the program but grow tired of blaming the staff of two years ago on this years record. It's weak sauce.

 

[Alsacs]

The "rankings" for SU in the pre-Dino era include our "best" recruits - almost NONE of whom actually ever made it to campus due to being academic reaches, and the small few who did, never panned out.

So, as mediocre as they were, they are skewed "higher" under Shafer than what he ever actually landed on campus and played in games.
Which means we were, in actuality, quite a bit behind those peer programs for recruiting under FHCSMFS.
And it showed then, and shows now.

More importantly, Wake, State, and BC have been recruiting to their systems for 1-2+ years longer than we have.
That matters. A LOT.

We have 7 seniors contributing a lot this year
Ishmael
Philips
Franklin
Bennett
McGloster
Murphy
J. Thomas

And Mahoney the last 2 games.
I will add Dungey as well but he is a Juniors

The recruiting from the last staff isn’t on par with BC and Wake.

 

[Alsacs]

The continued use of Shafer as a reason for this teams failures is weak imo. He's not our head coach.

I am behind Babers and the program but grow tired of blaming the staff of two years ago on this years record. It's weak sauce.

I just love hammering Shafer to Shafer people.
Pure and simple. I enjoy trashing the guy Shafer people love because he was blue collar and edgy when he was a chitty HC who should have never been given the job and is why we are in a hole now.

 

[Pyle]

The "rankings" for SU in the pre-Dino era include our "best" recruits - almost NONE of whom actually ever made it to campus due to being academic reaches, and the small few who did, never panned out.

So, as mediocre as they were, they are skewed "higher" under Shafer than what he ever actually landed on campus and played in games.
Which means we were, in actuality, quite a bit behind those peer programs for recruiting under FHCSMFS.
And it showed then, and shows now.

More importantly, Wake, State, and BC have been recruiting to their systems for 1-2+ years longer than we have.
That matters. A LOT.

Wake doesn’t recruit for a system. I’ve read Clawson articles that specifically state he runs whatever offense gets his playmakers the most touches. Hes recruiting talent for talent sake, not to fit any system.

 

[Pyle]

I just love hammering Shafer to Shafer people.
Pure and simple. I enjoy trashing the guy Shafer people love because he was blue collar and edgy when he was a chitty HC who should have never been given the job and is why we are in a hole now.

Just to be clear I think Shafer and Lester should have been given another year but that’s a different discussion. What we are actually debating here is are we actually better off now than we were? On paper? Yes. But other than a couple of feel good wins, the overall body of work i.e. bowl appearances, notches in the W column, not having bottom ranked units, and not feeling like wth just happened after a game isn’t actually any better 2 years in. As a matter of fact, we’ve had more WTH losses under Dino than we had under DM or Shafer.

 

[Alsacs]

Just to be clear I think Shafer and Lester should have been given another year but that’s a different discussion. What we are actually debating here is are we actually better off now than we were? On paper? Yes. But other than a couple of feel good wins, the overall body of work i.e. bowl appearances, notches in the W column, not having bottom ranked units, and not feeling like wth just happened after a game isn’t actually any better 2 years in. As a matter of fact, we’ve had more WTH losses under Dino than we had under DM or Shafer.

Please make a new thread and post this.
It shouldn’t be buried here.

 

[cuse309]

Wake doesn’t recruit for a system. I’ve read Clawson articles that specifically state he runs whatever offense gets his playmakers the most touches. Hes recruiting talent for talent sake, not to fit any system.

Ahhh, glad you brought up wake. Clawson 3-9 in year 1, 3-9 in year 2 (uh oh...he's supposed to rebuild us he obviously can't). 7-6 in year 3 (coincidence that year 3 is when the majority of the starters were his recruits?) 7-4 with a possibility to win 9 in year 4. Now the vast majority of his recruits are starting and on the 2 deep adding quality depth. Clawson also red shirts nearly every single player for the sole purpose of building quality depth. The Wake turn around, if it does truly turn the program around, is following the exact blueprint, and timeframe, and w-l record by year, that just about every successful rebuild has followed.
I'm not saying that the fact Dino's teams have struggled in years 1 and 2 is proof that he's the man, but it is proof that the sky is not falling, and that there is no real reason to worry yet. Next year, if we don't win 6, then maybe cause for concern. Year 4...different story.

 

[bigmike]

We will all know almost everything we need to about Dino a little over a year from now. What we need right now is just a little more patience - as difficult as that is to swallow after the last 1.5 games.

 

[TheCusian]

More excuses. Wake's players aren't any better than ours and they blew our dang doors off. Oh Oh but we beat Clemson!!!! Gerg beat ND, BFD. The wins against VT and Clemson are actually more slaps in the face when you finish the season by losing out. Nothing like having hope only to have it buried like a stash of Atari 2600 E.T. carts in an AZ desert. This is some of the worst defense we've EVER played and because we did alright against some 2nd string signal callers people think Ward's ok. He's not. Letting LJ pick apart our zone all damn day was ridiculous. Ward sucks, the numbers bear it out. People blame injuries for our D falling off, I think it's the opposite. It was other teams injuries that made our defense look more competent that it really was.

Coming in hot.

1. Wins against teams as quality as VaTech in year 1 and Clemson in year 2 are better than Marrone, Robinson and Shafer. Clemson is a better win than any since #1 McNabb.

2. The defense when not working looks and feels worse because of the number of possessions. The worse our offense is the worse our defense looks. It's year two. Think back on the worst games. Bad, ineffective O, too may possessions for the D. In other words, had we Shafer as a HC we'd be losing by less because of tempo - but still losing - only with less hope of pulling off an upset. We'd have lost 40-0 to Jackson and felt "better" because we played slow and ran down the clock. But we'd feel worse because we got our doors blown off vs Clemson earlier.

Ward may not be the answer - but this last game is a poor one to judge on.

 

[Killdozer]

What on earth are you talking about?

Read my post, it's pretty clear. I just don't get all of these post about doubting Babers. I haven't seen one post from anyone saying he isn't the one. These post get old because they apply to no one on this forum

 

[anomander]

Just to be clear I think Shafer and Lester should have been given another year but that’s a different discussion. What we are actually debating here is are we actually better off now than we were? On paper? Yes. But other than a couple of feel good wins, the overall body of work i.e. bowl appearances, notches in the W column, not having bottom ranked units, and not feeling like wth just happened after a game isn’t actually any better 2 years in. As a matter of fact, we’ve had more WTH losses under Dino than we had under DM or Shafer.

Other than totally disagreeing with everything you stated above I will say that I at least now feel like we are building towards something. You know what Babers wants to accomplish on offense, and to some people's disapproval, we know what they are trying to do defensively as well. There is a plan. They are recruiting towards that plan on both sides of the ball.

Under the prior regime it felt more like he was throwing something against the wall hoping it stuck. The offensive philosophy changed. Recruiting strategy changed. There was no plan in place.

Say what you want about Babers, and his 1 bad wth loss (MTSU), but other then that he has won games many staffs (not just Shafer) wouldn't have been able to win with the current personnel, and has competed in several others. More importantly there is a plan in place. When his story is all done and written we will all hopefully see that the scope is much bigger than year 2. He is implementing his system and getting the players in place. If his plan is executed correctly we won't really care about eeking out 6 wins in his 2nd season. Try to think bigger than right now.

 

[PhatOrange]

Where is their 300 recruit? They got a stud DT last year but he's still a frosh. The guys who beat us were mainly 2013 - 2015 recruits.

2 of those guys they beat Shafer for. LB Jaboree Williams and DT Zeke Rodney. Both had big days against us. Too bad Shafer couldn’t land them.

 

[PhatOrange]

Just to be clear I think Shafer and Lester should have been given another year but that’s a different discussion. What we are actually debating here is are we actually better off now than we were? On paper? Yes. But other than a couple of feel good wins, the overall body of work i.e. bowl appearances, notches in the W column, not having bottom ranked units, and not feeling like wth just happened after a game isn’t actually any better 2 years in. As a matter of fact, we’ve had more WTH losses under Dino than we had under DM or Shafer.

That’s funny. Focusing on bad losses rather than great wins. I’ll take the wth wins. Who has upset us other than MTSU? Shafer had zero good wins and was embarrassed by Georgia Tech 56-0, FSU 59-3, Clemson 49-14, Northwestern 49-27 oh and shouldve lost to Villanova if I recall correctly. Shafers vaunted hardnosed defense gave up 40 or more points 9 times.

We have a pulse now even with mediocre option talent. With our #1 qb I actually felt like we could win any time out. Not so much with shafers walkon. Oh well