If it is found James cheated...

[SaltLakeOrange]

I agree 100%. However, it seems Southland is being treated to a diferent standard than regular students in this case.

This may be so...I don't know the circumstances though. Once they come out, if ever then we can talk more about this...I do hope he comes back.

 

[PeteCalvin]

Moreso, if we "treat him like any other student", what does that mean? If another student got a 0 on the paper in question, but still passed the class (assuming this was their first strike and SU uses that system, as opposed to a "do it once and your expelled regardless"), they most likely move on to the next semester after earning a passing grade in that class. But if James gets a 0, is he kicked off the team for cheating? Even if he did what he was supposed to afterwords and passed the class? If that's the case he's held to higher standards than a normal student?

I want our players to do well in class, but that's not my business, that's up to SU and the players themselves. I care about winning basketball games; just like in baseball I don't really care what a player does in their personal life, if they want to cheat on their significant other, that's on them, as long as it doesn't effect their play it really doesn't bother me.

That was my point. If he gets caught cheating on a paper that results in him getting an in the class, yet his overall GPA is where it needs to be to remain eligible, should he be pulled off the team? Would a Marching Band member be pulled from that activity for a similar offense?

 

[raf4488]

"cuseatduke" posted pretty much the same thing as cto in another thread and got ripped for it. That thread shows why many believe the FB board is so much better than this one.

SU is an academic institution first that happens to have a basketball program, not the other way around. Sorry.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I have friends who have gotten caught cheating.

 

[Orangezoo]

While indeed the university makes money off student athletes (edit), you also have to factor in that 50-60k a year is being paid by other students while guys like James get out scott free. I was 50/50 at SU in that I paid 25% - got loans for 25% and then got academic scholarships for the other 50. If he cheated - it undermines the 50% I paid in my opinion should he not be punished.. On the flip side - if I recall there is a 2-3 strike situation with plagiarism. So if this is strike one in his sr year - the games he has been out should be sufficient. Just my opinion.

 

[orange79]

if that is his destiny, sure

what I mean is that Biden took a punishment short of expulsion, continued his career and graduated. As have many, many others accused of plagiarism over the years. If James gets a punishment more severe than is common, then that is a problem.

I knew what you meant. Just doing what I do.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I don't think anyone really disagrees with that . . . the question is what should those consequences be? we don't know any of the facts, but if what is rumored to be the issue is anything like the truth, then it seems James is being held to a different standard than would be most students.

I am all for appropriate punishment, but I also know that this all came about because the NCAA came to town after the Fine case broke and turned over every rock, so I want to make sure James gets his due for what he did, not because a bunch of bureaucratic hacks are reacting to institutional failures in other, unrelated cases.

If after the appeal he is eligible, if his GPA is over 2.0, then he should be allowed to play. If not, then he shouldn't. I think he may of had a GPA very close to 2. And if the paper in question causes him to take a lower grade in a class, that might lower his GPA under 2. I fear that this is the issue. That his GPA is now too low for him to play. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Ghost]

Throw me in the couldn't care less camp.

Everyone plagiarizes - 99% of people just take the time to reword the portions they're imitating or borrowing. I guess we would be kicking him off the team for being academically lazy. The kids that just outright steal should get extra credit for being upfront about it!

Silly if you ask me.

 

[orange79]

I have friends who have gotten caught cheating.

What happened to them? When I was TA at SU, I had two students (same class, two different TA's) turn in the same paper. One paper had already been returned, so we had to finesse it, but one person copped. Failing grades for both.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

If it is found that he cheated, he should be treated like any other SU student found cheating. Nothing more, nothing less.

SU is an academic institution with a basketball team. It is not a basketball team with an academic institution attached.

Reading some of the posts here, one would think this is comparable to the suffering endured by millions of people in Darfur.

No, the 'suffering' would only be "Darfur"-level for someone reading it without a sense of context. Just because the context isn't specified in each thread doesn't mean the writers are so completely insipid as to not understand it.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

Here where I teach, if you plagiarize you are expelled from the school. Doesn't matter if it's caught a year or two years later. I'm assuming SU has the same standard. Yes it sucks the NCAA dug around and found an anomaly from a year ago (I assume). This wouldn't have happened if the basketball team had it's collective in order and didn't completely up the Fab thing. Don't blame the school for having to deliberate on something which most professors take as a serious matter, blame the basketball team for not overseeing their "student" athletes well enough.

 

[44cuse]

Sorry...but I find it so hard to believe that missing as many games as James has, that the normal penalty for cheating at SU is more serious than that. There is just now way (assuming he is a first time offender AND assuming he is guilty).

I just don't buy it. Maybe in a Princeton doctoral program or a Harvard dissertation...but no way at SU. Look, the school has to have academic standards. But James is at SU to play basketball first and get a degree second. Argue ALL you want about whether it should be that way, but that's the way it is.

And a part of having a top tier athletics program is finding the balance between those two things. And it is done on the admissions side on the way in many sports so it's not like some basic standard has been set for ALL students.

So based on what we know (which is very little), I find it nearly impossible to believe that the games already missed aren't comparable punishment enough.

44cuse

 

[PeteCalvin]

"cuseatduke" posted pretty much the same thing as cto in another thread and got ripped for it. That thread shows why many believe the FB board is so much better than this one.

SU is an academic institution first that happens to have a basketball program, not the other way around. Sorry.

I read that thread. CTO certainly expressed the same sentiment, but did it in a far more diplomatic, non-judgmental way. Cuseatduke seemed to have a chip on his shoulder and an agenda with what he wrote. It's how he conveyed his message that got him ripped. When you post with an attitude, you get attitude in return. Just my two bit analysis.

 

[Orangefan1]

If it found that he cheated hasn't he already served his time? He has missed 7 games already. How much more punishment does he need? lol

 

[PeteCalvin]

Here where I teach, if you plagiarize you are expelled from the school. Doesn't matter if it's caught a year or two years later. I'm assuming SU has the same standard. Yes it sucks the NCAA dug around and found an anomaly from a year ago (I assume). This wouldn't have happened if the basketball team had it's collective in order and didn't completely up the Fab thing. Don't blame the school for having to deliberate on something which most professors take as a serious matter, blame the basketball team for not overseeing their "student" athletes well enough.

I don't think anyone is saying that cheating should be allowed. I think we are all smarter than that. What most people want, though, is transparency and equity in the decision. If what James did is related to cheating, and SU's policy is three strikes, and a normal student would get a second chance, then James should be treated the same. If he is given an in the class, but his GPA with the keeps him eligible, then he should remain eligible. Don't hold the kid to a higher standard than Joe Student who doesn't play a sport. As long as SU has a policy and it is enforced the same with James as it would be with any other student, all is good.

No one really knows what the hell happened anyway. We are all making assumptions.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

I'm one of the people who have said I just don't care. Apathy has just set in with collegiate athletics. Team bribe, pay, trick players to come to their programs all over the place. The NCAA makes money of these kids, the Universities make money off these kids. Any top prospect has zero desire to get a degree. Schools all over the country cover this stuff up, we just can't because of the spotlight we have on us lately. I really just don't care anymore. If James comes back we have a realistic shot of winning a title and honestly, I could care less if he cheated or not...whateverrrr.

Just %&King stupid. Just stupid...

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Bing. Bang. Boom. I wanna see syracuse in the final 4, I could give a flying fu*k if he cheated or not.


Sent from my SCH-R720 using Tapatalk 2

More than &%king stupid...

 

[NineOneSeven]

What happened to them? When I was TA at SU, I had two students (same class, two different TA's) turn in the same paper. One paper had already been returned, so we had to finesse it, but one person copped. Failing grades for both.

It was an exam. I believe he was given an or something along those lines. I don't know the details, but he wasn't expelled I know that. I'm thinking the professor has majority say on the issue. Being an engineering student, I had homework problem sets and exams over papers/writing assignments. Since most professors openly condoned working together, "cheating" was hard to identify unless you were that obvious (and some were). Obviously, plagiarism wasn't an issue.

That all being said, I was in FM high school as a senior when my fellow friends/classmates carried out one of the biggest cheating scandals in history, so I'm not unfamiliar with the matter.

 

[crzdsufan]

How ironic is it that the advertisement at the top of this page is "Free Check For Plagiarism: Check your paper for plagiarism..."

 

[Phillymoose]

Throw me in the couldn't care less camp.

Everyone plagiarizes - 99% of people just take the time to reword the portions they're imitating or borrowing. I guess we would be kicking him off the team for being academically lazy. The kids that just outright steal should get extra credit for being upfront about it!

Silly if you ask me.

By definition, when you 'take the time to reword the portions' you are no longer plagiarizing.
The rewording of the portions you are imitating IS the task.

 

[nycfan]

But the word 'cheating' has a bit of a gray area right? Let's suppose the tutor did 'help' him write one paragraph on this huge paper. Does this warrant missing an entire semester worth of games? (does the punishment fit the crime)

 

[rrlbees]

Wow at some of these posts. Not speaking about James in particular, but "student" athletes in general, but how can people complain about an athlete being treated differently than a regular student?

They are in some cases treated differently. But in the opposite direction. If college athletes were treated the same as regular students, 25% or more would have flunked out by now. Many college athletes don't belong in college, but some how they stay eligible.

Sent using my Commodore 64 on Tapatalk 5.3

 

[SJUBall]

But the word 'cheating' has a bit of a gray area right? Let's suppose the tutor did 'help' him write one paragraph on this huge paper. Does this warrant missing an entire semester worth of games? (does the punishment fit the crime)

Fwiw, nobody outside of Syracuse fans really believe that Southerland won't be cleared this weekend. If he doesn't get cleared, I will be extremely surprised. MCW got nothing for shoplifting and it would have been swept under the rug unless there were photos. I fully expect southerland to be cleared within next 12-24 hours before SJU game.

 

[Calcuse]

I got caught cheating one time and My wife didn't talk to me for 6 months. Almost enough reason to cheat again!

 

[cusetown1]

Fwiw, nobody outside of Syracuse fans really believe that Southerland won't be cleared this weekend. If he doesn't get cleared, I will be extremely surprised.

Zach is that you?