I'm excited for Thorpe BUT

[OttoinGrotto]

I hope Thorpe is the last 5th year guard we see in a while.

The 5th year option is great for filling a gap, but it's pretty lame that we needed to fill the same gap two offseasons in a row.

 

[OrangeAl]

SU - the best pickup team in America? You're right. That's not what we're looking for.

 

[iommi]

I doubt we wind up going that route next year and then the sanctions will be done after the following year. Maybe the rules might change too, making this not so easy to do. I don't expect this to be an annual thing for SU.

 

[Alsacs]

Look at the position we haven't recruited a serviceable PG since Ennis.
That is 4 recruiting cycles.
Plus all our assistants have been guards.

Thank goodness Gbinije developed.

 

[Timonen]

I hope Thorpe is the last 5th year guard we see in a while.

The 5th year option is great for filling a gap, but it's pretty lame that we needed to fill the same gap two offseasons in a row.

I respectfully disagree. We're in a zone where we'll never compete with uk/ku/Duke types for the top players who give you a chance of winning their first year. We get our share of one and doners but they leave when still heavy on potential and lighter on actual accomplishments. I think supplementing with experienced kids who have a resume and references is a positive and I'd love to own that space if possible. It's only going to grow as an option.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I respectfully disagree. We're in a zone where we'll never compete with uk/ku/Duke types for the top players who give you a chance of winning their first year. We get our share of one and doners but they leave when still heavy on potential and lighter on actual accomplishments. I think supplementing with experienced kids who have a resume and references is a positive and I'd love to own that space if possible. It's only going to grow as an option.

You can compete with them if you have the Gbinije's, Triche's, Jardine's, Southerland, Kris Josephs stick and be productive as 4 year players unlike the my 3 sons and Kaleb Josephs.

 

[RoatanCuse]

I respectfully disagree. We're in a zone where we'll never compete with uk/ku/Duke types for the top players who give you a chance of winning their first year. We get our share of one and doners but they leave when still heavy on potential and lighter on actual accomplishments. I think supplementing with experienced kids who have a resume and references is a positive and I'd love to own that space if possible. It's only going to grow as an option.

Sorry to disagree, Tim... but I feel the opposite. A fifth year gap-filler has had 4 years to acquire habits that JB & co. will have to unravel. I see this as plan C. Retraining anyone with set habits is proven more difficult than training someone new. Granted he can shoot & run the floor, but it takes some kids 1-2 years to FULLY learn the many nuances of JB's zone. Add to that the potential of team chemistry, egos, etc. I like how our coaches are recruiting right now. It seems they are building with 3-4 year program guys who will have our zone down pat in a year or two. Then we start becoming the defense-oriented teams of old...getting fast breaks off of steals and blocks. Everyone on the same page. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Sorry to disagree, Tim... but I feel the opposite. A fifth year gap-filler has had 4 years to acquire habits that JB & co. will have to unravel. I see this as plan C. Retraining anyone with set habits is proven more difficult than training someone new. Granted he can shoot & run the floor, but it takes some kids 1-2 years to FULLY learn the many nuances of JB's zone. Add to that the potential of team chemistry, egos, etc. I like how our coaches are recruiting right now. It seems they are building with 3-4 year program guys who will have our zone down pat in a year or two. Then we start becoming the defense-oriented teams of old...getting fast breaks off of steals and blocks. Everyone on the same page. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers.

I'd also say too... I'm leery of 5th year guards, because I suspect they are players that want to showcase themselves for the next level. Everybody does, but a 5th year player... it's their last chance.

 

[OttoMets]

Agreed - glad everyone's excited about this (really, I am), but after watching decades of Boeheim-ball and the debacle that was last season's attempted integration of two guys with "other programs' habits" to unlearn, I can't join in.

If this guy and his teammates are playing increasingly good basketball in mid-January, great. But in June all I know is that historically it's been very difficult for fifth-year players to learn this defense and succeed at the level SU fans are accustomed to.

 

[Alsacs]

I'd also say too... I'm leery of 5th year guards, because I suspect they are players that want to showcase themselves for the next level. Everybody does, but a 5th year player... it's their last chance.

Or they want to play in a higher caliber league. If you are in school 5 years very few kids become anything more than marginal NBA players. The NBA has become obsessed with players being younger when they enter the league so the teams can have them as young as possible if/ when they develop.

I wouldn't mind going after 5th year kids from smaller conferences if they can help us.

 

[Oráiste]

also, powerhouse programs are not usually built on transfers from mid-majors or lower tier high-major schools: we've had 5 of our limited scholarships going to kids from Providence, Colorado St., Nebraska, ECU, USF. That's the kind of roster construction I'd expect to see from Directional State U, not WannaBe Blue Blood University

not to mention that in the midst of serious scholarship reductions, this will now be the 3rd season in a row with a zombie on the roster - carrying the scholie but not on the court. Pascal 2x, Hughes this year.

In the midst of writing this, it dawns on me that it's kind of remarkable that we've even been a bubble team these last few seasons!

 

[RF2044]

Agreed - glad everyone's excited about this (really, I am), but after watching decades of Boeheim-ball and the debacle that was last season's attempted integration of two guys with "other programs' habits" to unlearn, I can't join in.

If this guy and his teammates are playing increasingly good basketball in mid-January, great. But in June all I know is that historically it's been very difficult for fifth-year players to learn this defense and succeed at the level SU fans are accustomed to.

Is that true, or merely being accepted as true because of what we saw last year?

Maybe Gillon / White just weren't going to be very good defenders, no matter the system. It doesn't necessarily become "evidence" that other fifth year transfers won't acclimate faster or have a more defensive orientation toward their play.

No argument that it can take awhile to learn our zone, but someone who already works hard defensively and has the right attributes might not take as long to pick it up.

 

[MSOrange]

Ultimately, I just want guys that will help us win, as we all do. But I'd really prefer not to have to rely on the grad transfer route as heavily. Just seems like building connections at the high school level is more sustainable. But Hoiberg seemed to build Iowa State by relying heavily on transfers so I suppose it can work in the right situation.

 

[SoBristol]

Whatever you believe about the defensive abilities of Gillon and White, White was easily our best weapon on offense and Gillon won a couple of games with last second heroics. Just as Anna Etta-Tawo was our best weapon in football. A lot to be said for grad transfers when you land the right guys.

And if we upgrade recruiting and don't need help -- fine.

 

[GooseMutt]

Whatever you believe about the defensive abilities of Gillon and White, White was easily our best weapon on offense and Gillon won a couple of games with last second heroics. Just as Anna Etta-Tawo was our best weapon in football. A lot to be said for grad transfers when you land the right guys.

And if we upgrade recruiting and don't need help -- fine.

Whet was a great great shooter. But he was not athletic. Not Cuse prototype for zone. Gillon saved our season and had heroics but was short and didn't try hard at D. Not Cuse prototype for zone. Defense is our offense. Thorpe is our prototype in my opinion

 

[MSOrange]

This doesn't have to do with grad transfers but holy crap, 232 transfers are still available. But we're out of scholarships of course.

Need a player? 232 transfers still available for pickup

 

[CousCuse]

Boeheim needs to continue the transition to grad transfer players. Every year every team is really a new team that the coaches have to bring together and JB is experienced at that from his Olympic coaching. If SU becomes known as the no.1 place for the highest level grad transfers, they would be a very strong program. People have to get use to the fact that the P5 is semi-professional sports and not the traditional collegiate format. It is what it is.

 

[SoBristol]

Whet was a great great shooter. But he was not athletic. Not Cuse prototype for zone. Gillon saved our season and had heroics but was short and didn't try hard at D. Not Cuse prototype for zone. Defense is our offense. Thorpe is our prototype in my opinion

Agree that Thorpe should be a strong defender. Defense may be our strength as a general matter, but our 2016-17 team would have been unwatchable without White & Gillon. And, in fairness, White was playing decent defense in the second half of the season when we beat some good teams, and gave Louisville all it could handle.

If you focus on defense, do you want to comment about our home grown players? Howard, Coleman, Thompson?

 

[GooseMutt]

Agree that Thorpe should be a strong defender. Defense may be our strength as a general matter, but our 2016-17 team would have been unwatchable without White & Gillon. And, in fairness, White was playing decent defense in the second half of the season when we beat some good teams, and gave Louisville all it could handle.

If you focus on defense, do you want to comment about our home grown players? Howard, Coleman, Thompson?

Yes we absolutely needed both grads last year. Yes Whites defense did improve due to extraordinary effort but it wasn't athletically fluent or quick. Coleman was undermined by his knees and didn't have the mobility. Thompson was a young offensive minded player lost in the zone not knowing where to rotate. Frank is capable if he manages his emotions.

 

[jordoo]

Agree that Thorpe should be a strong defender. Defense may be our strength as a general matter, but our 2016-17 team would have been unwatchable without White & Gillon. And, in fairness, White was playing decent defense in the second half of the season when we beat some good teams, and gave Louisville all it could handle.

If you focus on defense, do you want to comment about our home grown players? Howard, Coleman, Thompson?

People were hard on the Grads about defense last year but you bring up an excellent point. Who played well on defense last year. Tyler was alright on the wing but didn't play a lot. Battle got better toward the end of the season. Lydon was good enough at the 5 if a bit undersized but not a great wing defender. Everyone else was bad defensively.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm just surprised that we have multiple posters here that are still promoting the idea that we try to position ourselves as a grad transfer destination.

That just sounds so crappy to me.

 

[CousCuse]

I'm just surprised that we have multiple posters here that are still promoting the idea that we try to position ourselves as a grad transfer destination.

That just sounds so crappy to me.

Both of the grad transfers last year were mature and played really well. If the centers didn't get injured, the team could have been quite a bit better. I think a lot of people would like this idea better if that had been the case. I think the likely hood of missing badly on GT is much lower than a freshman recruit.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Both of the grad transfers last year were mature and played really well. If the centers didn't get injured, the team could have been quite a bit better. I think a lot of people would like this idea better if that had been the case. I think the likely hood of missing badly on GT is much lower than a freshman recruit.

I liked Gillon and White, don't get me wrong.

I don't like the circumstances that required we have them. Same with Thorpe.

It was bad planning, roster management, and recruiting execution. The sanctions no doubt play a part, but it's discouraging to have a roster weak enough that a grad transfer option becomes necessary. Especially at guard.

Heaven forbid we actually walk into each off-season with the intent to pick up a 5th year.

To me that means we continue to whiff on our true recruiting targets. And if the staff just concedes that they're going to whiff on their targets every year... we need a different staff that can recruit more effectively.

 

[kcsu]

I liked Gillon and White, don't get me wrong.

I don't like the circumstances that required we have them. Same with Thorpe.

It was bad planning, roster management, and recruiting execution. The sanctions no doubt play a part, but it's discouraging to have a roster weak enough that a grad transfer option becomes necessary. Especially at guard.

Heaven forbid we actually walk into each off-season with the intent to pick up a 5th year.

To me that means we continue to whiff on our true recruiting targets. And if the staff just concedes that they're going to whiff on their targets every year... we need a different staff that can recruit more effectively.

The sanctions in addition to early departures plus missing on kaleb and Frank are what did it.

 

[Delmar]

With one-and-done there is no good way to do any long-term planning. Unless you are UK, Duke, or KU, you have to cobble together your team year by year. (And even Duke got caught short last year).

This is the lay of the land. There is no continuity from one year to the next.