I'm excited for Thorpe BUT

[Oráiste]

I don't disagree about the small sample size of the small guy and the slow guy from last season, but I was also factoring in the years of freshman who (with Triche and very, very few other exceptions) take a couple years to learn how to defend.

With enough fifth-year transfers, we'll find the hard worker who picks up defense before we hit conference play, no doubt about it. But he's the unicorn out there.

you can often hide one bad defender in a zone, but not two. and last year, there were several. In addition to the transfers, there was Thompson and even Lydon, who was good when playing center but not good when on the wing

 

[OttoMets]

you can often hide one bad defender in a zone, but not two. and last year, there were several. In addition to the transfers, there was Thompson and even Lydon, who was good when playing center but not good when on the wing

Yeah, I can't blame the two old guys for bad defense for the reason you stated. Every one of those five players was worse because the other four guys alongside him played bad defense. Can't do much about that.

 

[RF2044]

I don't disagree about the small sample size of the small guy and the slow guy from last season, but I was also factoring in the years of freshman who (with Triche and very, very few other exceptions) take a couple years to learn how to defend.

With enough fifth-year transfers, we'll find the hard worker who picks up defense before we hit conference play, no doubt about it. But he's the unicorn out there.

I don't think that is a "unicorn" at all -- just somebody who with better physical attributes who is more defensively predisposed than White / Gillon were as players. Thorpe has the tools, will be interesting to see whether he's a better defender than last year's guys as a one year plug-and-play. But that wouldn't make him a unique case by any means.

I don't think that it takes multiple years for guys to pick up our zone defense -- some are just better at it or work harder at it or have higher hoops IQ than others.

 

[CousCuse]

If that's the case then Wake Forest must be elite.

I thought their 3 big men were great. SU should have been in ahead of them.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Sorry to disagree, Tim... but I feel the opposite. A fifth year gap-filler has had 4 years to acquire habits that JB & co. will have to unravel. I see this as plan C. Retraining anyone with set habits is proven more difficult than training someone new. Granted he can shoot & run the floor, but it takes some kids 1-2 years to FULLY learn the many nuances of JB's zone. Add to that the potential of team chemistry, egos, etc. I like how our coaches are recruiting right now. It seems they are building with 3-4 year program guys who will have our zone down pat in a year or two. Then we start becoming the defense-oriented teams of old...getting fast breaks off of steals and blocks. Everyone on the same page. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers.

I'm not buying this. No feathers ruffled, however:
"A fifth year gap-filler has had 4 years to acquire habits that JB&Co will have to unravel."
How is what a player learns at another university more damaging than what he learned in high school? We have players coming into college ball with varying levels of experience. Some come in only having played a few years of organized ball. So, ostensibly, they'd be more prepared to be programmed by JB than a kid who has been a basketball player since early childhood, where so many bad habits would be ingrained?

Secondly, if we have a defense that requires that a player come in with a blank, impressionable mind, and then still requires 1-2 years to "fully learn the nuances," then we will be perennially screwed unless we can field a team of all homegrown juniors and seniors. Which almost never happens, and which also means we're not getting top-shelf recruits who can immediately crack the starting lineup.

I'm not seeing how we're going to have a lot of success in the future if we can't get top 20 high schoolers and we ignore transfers because they 'have too much experience in a different system.' That thing where JB said the 5th year guys have a lot of bad habits — just another occasion where JB says stuff. I can't imagine another top coach using that as an excuse. By that logic, Kevin Durant should have been a liability for GS. With our own Andrew White and John Gillon, it wasn't prior experience that had them not being superior defenders. Gillon is just small for the role, and White isn't an upper-level athlete, and came in at the 11th hour. I expect Thorpe to be better in the zone that a typical, raw-brained freshman. Despite his handicap.

 

[Alsacs]

If that's the case then Wake Forest must be elite.

Gotta know

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Both of the grad transfers last year were mature and played really well. If the centers didn't get injured, the team could have been quite a bit better. I think a lot of people would like this idea better if that had been the case. I think the likely hood of missing badly on GT is much lower than a freshman recruit.

PC missing games was a plus.

 

[CousCuse]

PC missing games was a plus.

I'm sure you feel better for insulting the guy.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I'm sure you feel better for insulting the guy.

We would've been better served with Howard getting fewer minutes too. Especially earlier in the season.

 

[CousCuse]

bboeheim l

We would've been better served with Howard getting fewer minutes too. Especially earlier in the season.

Boeheim likes Howard.

 

[HOFCeluck]

bboeheim l

Boeheim likes Howard.

How that changes the fact that he was not a good player this past season I am unsure.

 

[asj410]

bboeheim l

Boeheim likes Howard.

We all have our flaws.

 

[CousCuse]

How that changes the fact that he was not a good player this past season I am unsure.

Some players need PT to improve. None of this has anything to do with grad transfers.

 

[cuseattle]

Gotta know

Do you remember these? They always made fun of Flacco!

NFL QBs ON FACEBOOK: FINALLY ELITE!

 

[007]

you can often hide one bad defender in a zone, but not two. and last year, there were several. In addition to the transfers, there was Thompson and even Lydon, who was good when playing center but not good when on the wing

That might be true from most zones, but not the way JB plays it. His 2-3, and the amount of ground ALL 5 players must cover and rotate to, makes it extremely difficult to "hide" one bad defender. In fact, it exposes the bad defender and makes the zone collectively worse than the ability of the other 4 players.

Last year, you had one slow, and 2 let's say "often disinterested" players playing big minutes. And that, IMO, had a lot more to do with the historically bad 2-3 than the presence of 2 5th year transfers.

 

[Sherman20]

I'm not buying this. No feathers ruffled, however:
"A fifth year gap-filler has had 4 years to acquire habits that JB&Co will have to unravel."
How is what a player learns at another university more damaging than what he learned in high school? We have players coming into college ball with varying levels of experience. Some come in only having played a few years of organized ball. So, ostensibly, they'd be more prepared to be programmed by JB than a kid who has been a basketball player since early childhood, where so many bad habits would be ingrained?

Secondly, if we have a defense that requires that a player come in with a blank, impressionable mind, and then still requires 1-2 years to "fully learn the nuances," then we will be perennially screwed unless we can field a team of all homegrown juniors and seniors. Which almost never happens, and which also means we're not getting top-shelf recruits who can immediately crack the starting lineup.

I'm not seeing how we're going to have a lot of success in the future if we can't get top 20 high schoolers and we ignore transfers because they 'have too much experience in a different system.' That thing where JB said the 5th year guys have a lot of bad habits — just another occasion where JB says stuff. I can't imagine another top coach using that as an excuse. By that logic, Kevin Durant should have been a liability for GS. With our own Andrew White and John Gillon, it wasn't prior experience that had them not being superior defenders. Gillon is just small for the role, and White isn't an upper-level athlete, and came in at the 11th hour. I expect Thorpe to be better in the zone that a typical, raw-brained freshman. Despite his handicap.

Thank you for this post dismantling the notion that a freshman would be more readily able to learn the zone than a grad transfer because of "all their ingrained habits." Like high school kids wouldn't be even worse. I still can't understand why people object to 5th year grad transfers. Andrew White was the best offensive player on our team last year. And Gillon was a key contributor as well.

 

[chugg21]

The sanctions have been a great disguise, the biggest issue has been the major whiffs on the recruiting trail in unison with the unforeseen early departures. JB's 'wheelhouse' his entire coaching career has been playing 7 guys, that's his comfort zone. We could have 10 Mickey D's on our roster, he'd still choose to play 7 for "real" minutes in the game.

The sanctions disguise is similar to saying how the GS Warriors have a great defense. What a joke. The Cavs had 113 points in game 3 with 3:08 left in the game prior to choking down the stretch being outscored 11-0. Game 4 they broke all kinds of scoring, shooting percentage records, etc. in route to scoring 133 points. In game 5 yesterday, they had 120 points in defeat, that's with that horrible offensive drought they had in the 2nd Q when being up 8 to down 17 in a 5-6 minute span. Those offensive woes had everything to do with Lue's egigmatic substitution pattern during that stretch more than GS's alleged stellar D...but I digress.

I'm going to have to guess that you're are a college and not NBA guy. Golden State literally led the entire NBA in both the regular season and postseason in Points allowed per shot and finished 2nd in the NBA .2 behind the Spurs and a mile ahead of 3rd place in Defensive (Points allowed per 100 possessions) in the regular season. But sure, go ahead and use a few quarters against by far the 2nd best team in the NBA as reasons to try to make a point that is completely bizarre and not remotely accurate. Between that and someone actually believing that Chukwu being injured was a reason we stunk last year in the same thread, I might have to go listen to Skip or Stephen A for a more realistic take.

 

[kcsu]

Well, it will be interesting to see this year if Green as a frosh outperforms Thorpe as a 5th year.

If you are only going to have a player for one year then you want to have the best player possible, regardless of one & done frosh or 5th year transfer.

Last year it would have been pretty hard to find a one year guy better than White. Gillon had his moments, but by and large was replaceable.

So, bottom line, here are the problems I see with the 5th year v the one & done:

1. It is always possible a one & done becomes a two year plus guy
2. You can plan on who you target with the one & dones - the 5th year guys will always leave you in scramble mode.
3. As Otto said above, if you end up chasing a 5th year guy, it means that your recruiting Plan A was unsuccessful.
4. Also, as he said above, we have now chased one year solutions at PG three straight years, forget the Greens, we need the Jardines of this world, ie solid above avergae players who will stay four years and provide foundation and continuity. At the very least we need some MCWs who will learn for a year & then take over.

So the bottom line for me, is that I think w Thorpe (and last year w White & Gillon) we have got a near max one year guys who will help the season, but not the program.

Not so sure. Potential one and done guys make it hard to recruit as potential recruits are not sure if the "greens" are going to stay or go until extremely late in the cycle. With a Grade there is no doubt. Also Thorpe will be a much better college player than Green next year. Not long term potential but for 1 year he will be better. I actually like adding a GT each year. I also believe that a 5th year mature player/individual has a better chance to learn the zone and contribute than a 18 year old potential one and done. If Jb can construct a roster of 2 to 4 year program guys supplemented with a one and done and GT for me that is the winning mix in todays college world.

 

[kcsu]

You think chukwu would have been better in the middle than Lydon last season?

This is good stuff

Potentially yes. Plus Lydon would have been able to defend one of the wings. Dont sleep on 72.

 

[jordoo]

First of all we passed on a handful of PG's that could have started for us this year because we were waiting on Green. Second we spend the rest of the winter recruiting Ayala and trying to get him to reclassify. So that left very few available class of 17 kids that could come in and start at PG and even fewer that we had a chance with. I understand not wanting to rely on GRAD transfers every season. It has its advantages and disadvantages but its not the ideal situation to be in. The good news is that we are only integrating one GRAD transfer into the system this year.

I'm not sure if anyone has made this comparison but here are the stats from Gillon and Thorpe before transferring to SU:

FG% .384, 3P% .335, FT% .879, MPG 32, PTS 13.2, AST 3.9, TOV 2.3
FG% .394, 3P% .375, FT% .846, MPG 33, PTS 15.1, AST 4.6, TOV 3.0

Those are some eerily similar stat lines. Gillon's biggest issues moving to a P5 conference was size. He was maybe 5-10 which hurt him tremendously in our defense and got him into all sorts of trouble driving, not just finishing but seeing what was going on. Thorpe has plenty of size to compete with P5 guards. At 6-4 he is already a huge upgrade in the zone. I think he will have a successful season at SU.

 

[OttoMets]

Thank you for this post dismantling the notion that a freshman would be more readily able to learn the zone than a grad transfer because of "all their ingrained habits." Like high school kids wouldn't be even worse. I still can't understand why people object to 5th year grad transfers. Andrew White was the best offensive player on our team last year. And Gillon was a key contributor as well.

Of course we'd expect freshmen to be as bad or worse. But we're always going to play freshmen; the fifth-year guys aren't replacing them, they're playing alongside them. Better to have one inexperienced defender than three.

 

[newmexicuse]

Not so sure. Potential one and done guys make it hard to recruit as potential recruits are not sure if the "greens" are going to stay or go until extremely late in the cycle. With a Grade there is no doubt. Also Thorpe will be a much better college player than Green next year. Not long term potential but for 1 year he will be better. I actually like adding a GT each year. I also believe that a 5th year mature player/individual has a better chance to learn the zone and contribute than a 18 year old potential one and done. If Jb can construct a roster of 2 to 4 year program guys supplemented with a one and done and GT for me that is the winning mix in todays college world.

I agree with you in theory. Problem is that we are not going to get either the one & done or the high level GT unless there are voids on the roster & starters are needed.

We can't plan around having holes to fill, that has been the mode we have been in the last several seasons.

IMHO we need to have a roster full of starting caliber 2 to 4 year types, preferably where your 6 thru 8 players can step up if somebody leaves for any reason including graduation. It is pretty apparent that we are longer a preferred destination for the obvious one & done types. Even when we were flying high we would only get one once every several seasons at best. That simply can't be part of the plan other than as a sometimes bonus when it does happen.

Long term success for a program like ours needs to be built around above average talent (ie better as upperclassmen than one & dones are as frosh) that stays and plays together for multiple seasons to learn and excel in our system.

 

[RoatanCuse]

First of all we passed on a handful of PG's that could have started for us this year because we were waiting on Green. Second we spend the rest of the winter recruiting Ayala and trying to get him to reclassify. So that left very few available class of 17 kids that could come in and start at PG and even fewer that we had a chance with. I understand not wanting to rely on GRAD transfers every season. It has its advantages and disadvantages but its not the ideal situation to be in. The good news is that we are only integrating one GRAD transfer into the system this year.

I'm not sure if anyone has made this comparison but here are the stats from Gillon and Thorpe before transferring to SU:

FG% .384, 3P% .335, FT% .879, MPG 32, PTS 13.2, AST 3.9, TOV 2.3
FG% .394, 3P% .375, FT% .846, MPG 33, PTS 15.1, AST 4.6, TOV 3.0

Those are some eerily similar stat lines. Gillon's biggest issues moving to a P5 conference was size. He was maybe 5-10 which hurt him tremendously in our defense and got him into all sorts of trouble driving, not just finishing but seeing what was going on. Thorpe has plenty of size to compete with P5 guards. At 6-4 he is already a huge upgrade in the zone. I think he will have a successful season at SU.

Thanks Jordoo. Nice comparison, which has me somewhat positive...although there's the ever-present hurdle of learning a new system. Do you think he gets on campus early so he can gel with his teammates and learn some of the intricacies of JB's zone? Also, do you have any comparisons on steals? Always appreciate your usual great information. Thanks.

 

[jordoo]

Edit: meant to quote RoatanCuse

I don't think a grad transfer is going to be a sure thing to learn the system quickly just like a freshman isn't. Yes I do think Geno will be around this summer. By all accounts he's mature team guy, so he has that going for him.

Geno 1.6 steals per
John 0.8 steals per
Interestingly enough Gillon jumped to 1.4 per at SU playing a couple less minutes and struggling in our defense.

I think Geno will be much better defensively than John. Offensively I think his highs won't be as high and his lows won't be as low.

The off season reports and practice reports are going to be very interesting this year. I can't wait to start hearing stuff from the staff leaking out about all the guys. So many directions things can go with so many guys.

 

[SoBeCuse]

The thing I like about Thorpe is that he worked with Rod Strickland I believe at USF. Hard to tell if he possibly mailed it in some because the team was so bad. I'll take his skills though over Frank, Washington, or a 2017 Ayala. I would think the learning the zone issue is a case by case situation. Also, it comes down to effort. Gillon/Frank gave mostly poor efforts on D. It would've been poor in M2M too, imo.