I'm excited for Thorpe BUT

[CousCuse]

I liked Gillon and White, don't get me wrong.

I don't like the circumstances that required we have them. Same with Thorpe.

It was bad planning, roster management, and recruiting execution. The sanctions no doubt play a part, but it's discouraging to have a roster weak enough that a grad transfer option becomes necessary. Especially at guard.

Heaven forbid we actually walk into each off-season with the intent to pick up a 5th year.

To me that means we continue to whiff on our true recruiting targets. And if the staff just concedes that they're going to whiff on their targets every year... we need a different staff that can recruit more effectively.

I don't think the staff whiffed a lot, 4 or 5 guys left after 1 or 2 years. At least with a GT, the coaches know he is a one and done. Also, the GT's have to be very good students with solid transcripts and backgrounds or they wouldn't be accepted into a graduate program. I think several of theses players plus the other international guys give Syracuse a mature, modern world class look.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Both of the grad transfers last year were mature and played really well. If the centers didn't get injured, the team could have been quite a bit better. I think a lot of people would like this idea better if that had been the case. I think the likely hood of missing badly on GT is much lower than a freshman recruit.

Minimal impact. What is your basis for that?

 

[newmexicuse]

Minimal impact. What is your basis for that?

Well, it will be interesting to see this year if Green as a frosh outperforms Thorpe as a 5th year.

If you are only going to have a player for one year then you want to have the best player possible, regardless of one & done frosh or 5th year transfer.

Last year it would have been pretty hard to find a one year guy better than White. Gillon had his moments, but by and large was replaceable.

So, bottom line, here are the problems I see with the 5th year v the one & done:

1. It is always possible a one & done becomes a two year plus guy
2. You can plan on who you target with the one & dones - the 5th year guys will always leave you in scramble mode.
3. As Otto said above, if you end up chasing a 5th year guy, it means that your recruiting Plan A was unsuccessful.
4. Also, as he said above, we have now chased one year solutions at PG three straight years, forget the Greens, we need the Jardines of this world, ie solid above avergae players who will stay four years and provide foundation and continuity. At the very least we need some MCWs who will learn for a year & then take over.

So the bottom line for me, is that I think w Thorpe (and last year w White & Gillon) we have got a near max one year guys who will help the season, but not the program.

 

[chugg21]

Boeheim needs to continue the transition to grad transfer players. Every year every team is really a new team that the coaches have to bring together and JB is experienced at that from his Olympic coaching. If SU becomes known as the no.1 place for the highest level grad transfers, they would be a very strong program. People have to get use to the fact that the P5 is semi-professional sports and not the traditional collegiate format. It is what it is.

I possibly disagree with this more than with the absurd Ryan Nassib takes on the football board...

 

[CousCuse]

Minimal impact. What is your basis for that?

Boeheim's zone is dramatically better with a 72 shot blocker/alter-er/intimidater done low in the paint. The perimeter of the zone can extend to shut down the 3 because if they get beat off the dribble there is a tower to shot over behind them.

 

[CousCuse]

I possibly disagree with this more than with the absurd Ryan Nassib takes on the football board...

If everyone had the same outlook, things would not work. At least in the structure of the current reality.

 

[chugg21]

Boeheim's zone is dramatically better with a 72 shot blocker/alter-er/intimidater done low in the paint. The perimeter of the zone can extend to shut down the 3 because if they get beat off the dribble there is a tower to shot over behind them.

And then an already not great offense now has a 7'2 guy that can't catch a pass or shoot outside of 5 feet clogging up the middle of the lane taking away any sort of driving opportunities...

 

[CousCuse]

And then an already not great offense now has a 7'2 guy that can't catch a pass or shoot outside of 5 feet clogging up the middle of the lane taking away any sort of driving opportunities...

Boeheim's teams are based on great D. Coleman also was hurt and if things had worked out for him, he would have been a force on both ends. The team lost both of its paint players and was still very good, I don't see how you think it would not have been better with those 2 big men.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Boeheim's zone is dramatically better with a 72 shot blocker/alter-er/intimidater done low in the paint. The perimeter of the zone can extend to shut down the 3 because if they get beat off the dribble there is a tower to shot over behind them.

You think chukwu would have been better in the middle than Lydon last season?

This is good stuff

 

[NineOneSeven]

Boeheim's teams are based on great D. Coleman also was hurt and if things had worked out for him, he would have been a force on both ends. The team lost both of its paint players and was still very good, I don't see how you think it would not have been better with those 2 big men.

Very good? You've made some insane posts in your days here so none of this surprises me.

 

[CousCuse]

You think chukwu would have been better in the middle than Lydon last season?

This is good stuff

That is not Lydon's natural position.

 

[NineOneSeven]

That is not Lydon's natural position.

Thanks. But some players are still much better at playing unnatural positions compared to others in their "natural" positions.

 

[CousCuse]

Very good? You've made some insane posts in your days here so none of this surprises me.

If you have a winning record in the ACC and are the last team left out of the Tourney, I would say your a very good team.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Boeheim's teams are based on great D. Coleman also was hurt and if things had worked out for him, he would have been a force on both ends. The team lost both of its paint players and was still very good, I don't see how you think it would not have been better with those 2 big men.

The team was blown out how many times? Not a good team. They had some moments sure. Sure, if those two were healthy they would've been a little better. Coleman though was never going to be a shotblocker or some defensive force. We still don't know if Chukwu can contribute positively or if he's a slightly better Cat Rescuer.

 

[CousCuse]

Thanks. But some players are still much better at playing unnatural positions compared to others in their "natural" positions.

If your going to sit here and tell me you know we wouldn't have been a better team with Coleman and PC, then I think you just want to argue. PC was a highly recruited guy that our coaching staff went after, he can come up to speed. And I believe 100% in multiple graduate transfers.

 

[maxxyz]

You think chukwu would have been better in the middle than Lydon last season?

This is good stuff

What's the difference offensively between having Chukwu on the floor or having Roberson on the floor? You shouldn't have both, but neither can shoot, neither can dribble, neither can pass.

Having Chukwu in with Lydon on the wing or Roberson in with Lydon in the middle seems like a toss up from an offensive standpoint.

Maybe this year having two forwards that can score (I hope) would allow Chukwu to be an option at the 5? Wishful thinking on my part, but ya never know...

 

[CousCuse]

The team was blown out how many times? Not a good team. They had some moments sure. Sure, if those two were healthy they would've been a little better. Coleman though was never going to be a shotblocker or some defensive force. We still don't know if Chukwu can contribute positively or if he's a slightly better Cat Rescuer.

A 100% healthy Coleman would have been a huge improvement over TT. And that would have made last season a different story. We lost 2 players who were penciled in to contribute, it wasn't a plus.

 

[SoBeCuse]

If you have a winning record in the ACC and are the last team left out of the Tourney, I would say your a very good team.

The conference cannibalized each other. Also only had to play UNC, Duke, FSU, UVA once as well.

 

[CousCuse]

The conference cannibalized each other. Also only had to play UNC, Duke, FSU, UVA once as well.

My original premise was that last season wasn't all due to the grad transfers mucking things up. There were other more serious factors like the injuries to the big men.

 

[HOFCeluck]

If you have a winning record in the ACC and are the last team left out of the Tourney, I would say your a very good team.

If that's the case then Wake Forest must be elite.

 

[Forloveoforange]

The team was blown out how many times? Not a good team. They had some moments sure. Sure, if those two were healthy they would've been a little better. Coleman though was never going to be a shotblocker or some defensive force. We still don't know if Chukwu can contribute positively or if he's a slightly better Cat Rescuer.

Its hard to speculate on cat rescuing. Chukwu's only advantage would be needing a slightly shorter ladder. We don't know if he is comfortable with ladders, or if cats even like him, at this point.

 

[Knicks411]

Is that true, or merely being accepted as true because of what we saw last year?

Maybe Gillon / White just weren't going to be very good defenders, no matter the system. It doesn't necessarily become "evidence" that other fifth year transfers won't acclimate faster or have a more defensive orientation toward their play.

No argument that it can take awhile to learn our zone, but someone who already works hard defensively and has the right attributes might not take as long to pick it up.

Gillon is a short guard; he could have played here for 100 years and probably not been a very good defender. So I think I agree/

 

[orangecuse]

The sanctions in addition to early departures plus missing on kaleb and Frank are what did it.

The sanctions have been a great disguise, the biggest issue has been the major whiffs on the recruiting trail in unison with the unforeseen early departures. JB's 'wheelhouse' his entire coaching career has been playing 7 guys, that's his comfort zone. We could have 10 Mickey D's on our roster, he'd still choose to play 7 for "real" minutes in the game.

The sanctions disguise is similar to saying how the GS Warriors have a great defense. What a joke. The Cavs had 113 points in game 3 with 3:08 left in the game prior to choking down the stretch being outscored 11-0. Game 4 they broke all kinds of scoring, shooting percentage records, etc. in route to scoring 133 points. In game 5 yesterday, they had 120 points in defeat, that's with that horrible offensive drought they had in the 2nd Q when being up 8 to down 17 in a 5-6 minute span. Those offensive woes had everything to do with Lue's egigmatic substitution pattern during that stretch more than GS's alleged stellar D...but I digress.

 

[OttoMets]

Is that true, or merely being accepted as true because of what we saw last year?

Maybe Gillon / White just weren't going to be very good defenders, no matter the system. It doesn't necessarily become "evidence" that other fifth year transfers won't acclimate faster or have a more defensive orientation toward their play.

No argument that it can take awhile to learn our zone, but someone who already works hard defensively and has the right attributes might not take as long to pick it up.

I don't disagree about the small sample size of the small guy and the slow guy from last season, but I was also factoring in the years of freshman who (with Triche and very, very few other exceptions) take a couple years to learn how to defend.

With enough fifth-year transfers, we'll find the hard worker who picks up defense before we hit conference play, no doubt about it. But he's the unicorn out there.

 

[SoBeCuse]

My original premise was that last season wasn't all due to the grad transfers mucking things up. There were other more serious factors like the injuries to the big men.

Oh for sure. Totally agree. I don't really blame the grad transfers for anything, truly.