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Impact of ACC - Recruiting

OPA, how do you explain the trend towards more offense? Teams score more and gain more yardage on average now than they did 10/20/30 years ago.

Is the explanation that for some reason right now there's more talent on offense than defense?

Occam's razor to me suggests that coaches are scheming their offense to be more productive now than they have in the past, but you've pretty well established that should be impossible.

Also, I'm absolutely certain that if you swapped Chip Kelly and Marrone right now and held constant their offensive philosophies and roster talent that Oregon's scoring would go down and Syracuse's scoring would go up.

You'd see a lot of downfield passes hitting the turf in the Dome and a tone of 3 and outs if they did it your way. If Chip Kelly took the SU job it would not have been the greatest show on turf coming out of the box.
 
there is some truth to both sides in this debate. Some schools, and their coaches, have a big head start on being good. If it was a race, they would be 30 yards ahead. Having said that, all coaches are not created equal. Some guys do more with less. Some guys do less with more. To suggest otherwise is dumb. We all saw what UConn was like before Jim Calhoun. We saw what Rick Pitino did with an awful Providence team in 1987. Greg Robinson was a terrible coach who would have dragged down any program. However, there is a real question in mind if any coach could have turned us around quickly.
 
Where do I begin???

You are actually comparing Churchill and Patton to college football coaches?

Wow. I can tell you one thing. Had Patton not had the U.S. money and armaments he would not have had the success he had. We prevailed in WWII - it was inevitable - because of our overwhelming economic power. And, I can tell you that had the U.S. not come to Europe, the UK would not have survived. So, yes these were great leaders and inspriational people, but money and economic power was the key to success - just like money and economic power is the key to success on the college football level.

As far as Robinson is concerned, I think you forget that with talent he won two Super Bowls - his defenses were very good during those two years. He also had success at UCLA and Texas - when he had talent.

Do I think Nick Saban is a better football coach than Greg Robinson? Of course I do. And, if I were a betting man, I would probably agree that at Alabama Greg Robinson would not have had the same success that Nick Saban has had. But, Greg would have had a great deal of success with that kind of talent, at that school. Most coaches would have success at that school. In fact, three coaches in the last thirty years have won NCs at Alabama.

Your take on JB is way off.

The SU BB team does not win because of strategy - it wins with great players - many great players.

If you think JB wins because of his 2-3 zone, you're crazy. He's been running the 2-3 since Roy Danforth ran it in the late 1960s. In the early 1970s SU was a very decent team, with players like Mark Wadach, Mike Lee, Bob Dooms and after that Dennis DuVal and Jim Lee. We were a very good regional program. But we were not a national program. The 2-3 zone did not change the trajectory of the program - national players did that - Pearl Washington, Derrick Coleman, Billy Owens and the many, many more that have come to SU since that time. The team right now has gobs of national players - it's sick how much talent we have accumulated. And you're focusing on the 2-3 zone???

My goodness.

And as far as the other sports you've mentioned, I really have no idea what you're talking about. I am not familar with the teams other than the SU women's lacrosse team. I'm sure that GG is very good coach. And, I'm sure that he has been funded well and has been given the chance to recruit more effectively.

Beyond that I can't really comment.

Do coaches matter? Yes. But they are not "genies in bottles" who take mediocre players and transform them somehow.

They succeed with money, facilities, talented players, knowledge of the game - which they all have - and organizational skills. As Coach Mac used to say. In the begining "I thought it was 80% coaching and 20% players. After awhile I realized that it was 20% coaching and 80% players."

And that's the reality.

No, Nick Saban and Chip Kelly would not have caused Philip to catch that INT or Antwon Baily not to fumble or our WRs to become faster or our KO guy to kick deeper or our punter to be more effective. When you break it down player to player it becomes very clear that coaches can only do so much. And neither Chip nor Nick would have changed any of what I have just described.

I'm done with this argument. You know where I stand. I have a nice day.
Ok argument over but let me make a few points. Churchill kept England from caving by himself. It had nothing to do with superior economics. Patton took down the best Tank commander ever long before economics came into play because of a superior plan. If he had lost Africa we would have lost the war. Herb Brooks beat the best hockey team to ever play for the USSR a team that had toyed with our NHL teams. Out of that miracle on Ice team i think that one kid made anything of himself in the NHL. No stars, no superior talent just an amazing coach with a fantastic game plan who got more out of his players than anyone would ever have imagined. I agree Nick and Chip wouldnt have caused Philips to catch the INT or kept Antwon from fumbling but they wouldnt have had to as we would have been up on both of those teams by two or three scores if they had been coaching. JB is such a good coach Hall of Fame coach that i have to think he has had a little something to do with our success and yes his 2-3 is different than any other zone out there just ask any coach. So lets put this discussion to bed and hope that we continue to recruit great talent and coach that talent and game plan at a high level as well.
 
Talent matters big time, but who identifies the talent and then coaches that talent up? If people really think that coaching does not matter as much as talent then they are insane. How many HS AA's do not even make the NFL? A lot, and some of that has to do with the kid, but a lot of it has to do with the coaching involved with it. The difference between Saban and other coaches is that he gets every single ounce of talent out of a kid. Alabama under Saban is a major college power and many of you think that they have all the talent possible. Well why then do most of their draft picks not pan out in the NFL? Hard work and coaching (systems-Boise, TCU, Ball State, Utah duhhhhh) is the most important thing for the success of a program.
 
You'd see a lot of downfield passes hitting the turf in the Dome and a tone of 3 and outs if they did it your way.

So you're saying it would be no different than what we see now? :rim shot:

If Chip Kelly took the SU job it would not have been the greatest show on turf coming out of the box.
Let's just put aside that the Oregon offense is primarily a rushing offense but they put up pretty good passing numbers too because they really predicate their offense on speed and maximizing the number of snaps they get each game so they have more opportunities overall to do more things than other offenses. We'll just leave that over there.

If people want to make the argument that there is no chance that a different coach could have coaxed more out of the offense and the players on offense these past three years than Marrone has because it's impossible to accomplish any other result with the same talent, what's the point of playing the game? I can't believe Marrone thinks there's nothing more they could do to be more successful, because, oh yeah, he's said that they were going to look at other offenses this offseason to see what they could do better.

The reasons people give for why our offense can't possibly perform better just blow my mind.
 
Let's just put aside that the Oregon offense is primarily a rushing offense but they put up pretty good passing numbers too because they really predicate their offense on speed and maximizing the number of snaps they get each game so they have more opportunities overall to do more things than other offenses. We'll just leave that over there.

If people want to make the argument that there is no chance that a different coach could have coaxed more out of the offense and the players on offense these past three years than Marrone has because it's impossible to accomplish any other result with the same talent, what's the point of playing the game? I can't believe Marrone thinks there's nothing more they could do to be more successful, because, oh yeah, he's said that they were going to look at other offenses this offseason to see what they could do better.

The reasons people give for why our offense can't possibly perform better just blow my mind.

Whatever on Oregon, you get my point. The team had no depth and limited talent...if you want to give Marrone a hard time do it over a whole bunch of kids leaving the program for various reasons. The guy got a bowl game out of them, came within a handful of plays in years one and three of being bowl eligible. Putting kids in positions where they cannot succeed is bad coaching.
 
Whatever on Oregon, you get my point. The team had no depth and limited talent...if you want to give Marrone a hard time do it over a whole bunch of kids leaving the program for various reasons. The guy got a bowl game out of them, came within a handful of plays in years one and three of being bowl eligible. Putting kids in positions where they cannot succeed is bad coaching.
I have given Marrone a hard time about the defections, but believe it or not, I'm a lot less interested in giving Marrone a hard time (I genuinely root for the guy to succeed, I just have doubts about how he's getting there) than I am refuting some of the nonsense reasons people give on this board for why we can't expect to see capable offense out of our program.

I'm also not certain that a different offense would have meant our kids wouldn't have been in position to succeed. I think our offense last season didn't put our kids in position to succeed, actually.
 
I think last year's offense was built around making sure Ryan Nassib didn't get hurt because there were no other options, on top of having decent but limited talent at WR. Hopefully he's recruiting well and we get late 2010 Marcus Sales back.
 
You lost me when you said Alabama wasn't a football factory at the time...Alabama has always been a football factory.
under Mike Shula Alabama was NOT a football factory. Sorry. The facts don't lie!
 
I would like to congratulate Capt. Tuttle for successfully hijacking this thread from the very second post. ;) It started as a hypothesis that the move to the ACC may be helping recruiting already but immediately changed gears to 'just win and they will come'. Then it morphed again into winning isn't enough to fill the stands, it's how you do it that counts. It's offensive football versus defensive football, baby!! Then it devolved into yet another moratorium on HCDM, his philosophy, and why we would be better with someone else.

I think the move to the ACC has and will continue to help recruiting.

I think winning does cure all ills, but this area doesn't care how we do it. If we could win consistently year in and year out with a dominating defense and an average offense, people would still pack the Dome...because we are winning!

I think it is possible to have an exciting offense and a strong defense at the same time so the argument is moot. Just look at the Coach Mac teams of the late 80's...some of my all time favorites to watch.

HCDM is the right man for OUR job. Period.

And Churchill and Patton both kicked ass. Patton was probably the best field general the Allies had.

I think I covered everything. Carry on.
 
under Mike Shula Alabama was NOT a football factory. Sorry. The facts don't lie!

Mike Shula probably cannot show his face in Alabama. That's the very definition of a football factory.
 
Mike Shula probably cannot show his face in Alabama. That's the very definition of a football factory.

But according to OPA's "there are no good or bad coaches, only good or bad players and facilities" logic, Alabama should always be winning no matter who the coach is.

The Mike Shula era didn't really happen, it was merely a figment of all of our imaginations.
 
But according to OPA's "there are no good or bad coaches, only good or bad players and facilities" logic, Alabama should always be winning no matter who the coach is.

The Mike Shula era didn't really happen, it was merely a figment of all of our imaginations.
Exactly! The logic some have around here is foolish and silly. Saban, Chip Kelly, and Pete Carroll are mediocre coaches, you got to be kidding :rolleyes:
 

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