Is Syracuse Football A Lost Cause? | Page 7 | Syracusefan.com

Is Syracuse Football A Lost Cause?

I agree with a lot of what you've written on this subject (and I think in general I usually agree with you), but I think that is such a broad statement. 10 years isn't that long and there is so much money involved/people involved that I would be shocked if they disbanded and we were in the academy model in full (or something akin to that) within a decade.

Again, I don't think your commentary on the end state is wrong, I just don't think we're looking at it occurring within a decade.

Fair argument though.

In 10 years, the contracts will all be renegotiated, and we will likely see the last round of conference realignment of the sport as we know it. What comes after will be an arms race, and we are not equipped to compete. But we could become a Rutgers punching bag level of program, if we can keep a seat at the table. That's our future. In another year or two, it will take too much money for us to ever get close to a title again.
 
This year is do or die, if you ask me. Either Fran gets back to 8 or 9 wins, or we're done.
2-10
5-7
2-10
7-6

Those are Clark Lea's records the first 4 years. Saying year 3 is do or die is silly, especially when year 1 was a winning record. Progress is not typically linear. If the coach is willing to make adjustments to address his weaknesses after 1 losing season, saying 8 wins or bust the next year is short sighted.
 
Yep, we’re doomed.

Might as well drop to Patriot league and Big East for everything else.

There’s no hope. The light at the end of the tunnel is the train coming to run you over.

Fran is a fraud and Fire Autry, and Wildhack brings nothing to the table.
I agree on Autry. He is not a coach. We have no movement and he just throws people out there that don't play well together. As for Fran, I don't believe he is a fraud, but is naive when it comes to coaching in many areas, yet is genuine with the players. Fantastic recruiter that has proven he can bring talent here. Maybe this new DC and a humbling year at the job will bring him down to earth a bit. Fran deserves at least 2 more years, but the state of CFB is looking bleak to say the least. I see 6 or so 10 team groups, like a mini NFL, playing all league games and a power conference playoff system for all tiers of collegiate football. Just can't see it staying this way much longer, it's out of control money wise.
 
The new landscape of college football has made me a bigger NFL fan. I used to be a huge Saturday over Sunday fan, but not anymore.

I agree with college players being paid, but hate that there's absolutely no control over it.

As for Syracuse, whether we're a lost cause really depends on your expectations. If you expect us to be a perennial top 25, competing for conference championships and playoff spots annually, then yeah I'd say it's a lost cause. But in that regard it's been a lost cause this entire century.

If you expect Syracuse to be an occasional top 25 team, occasionally battling for a conference championship and playoff spot, then no it's not a lost cause. In this scenario, the floor should really be 6 wins. What we saw this year with 3 wins and laying down against a 1 win team in the finale, should be an outlier that never ever happens again.
In my opinion we are about three years from the next major round of realignment (2028-30). I don’t see any way Syracuse makes the big 2 but if they are in the leftover conference, whether it’s called the ACC East or Big 12 East, I still think we are with like-minded teams similar to Syracuse.

Nothing wrong with playing TCU, SMU, UConn, West Virginia, Pitt, and Virginia Tech etc. We are more similar to these teams then Oklahoma, Florida State, Alabama, and Michigan. Here’s what I project for our conference in the next decade.

Syracuse (NY)
UConn (CT)
Pittsburgh (PA)
West Virginia (WV)
Cincinnati (OH)
Louisville (KY)
Memphis (TN)
Virginia Tech (VA)
NC State (NC)
UCF (FL)
TCU (TX)
SMU (TX)
 
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In my opinion we are about three years from the next major round of realignment (2028-30). I don’t see any way Syracuse makes the big 2 but if they are in the leftover conference, whether it’s called the ACC East or Big 12 East, I still think we are with like-minded team similar to Syracuse.

Nothing wrong with playing TCU, SMU, BC, West Virginia, Pitt, and Virginia Tech etc. We are more similar to these teams then Oklahoma, Florida State, Alabama, and Michigan. Here’s what I project for our conference in the next decade.

•UConn (CT)
Syracuse (NY)
Pittsburgh (PA)
West Virginia (WV)
Cincinnati (OH)
Louisville (KY)
•Memphis (TN)
Virginia Tech (VA)
NC State (NC)
UCF (FL)
Houston (TX)
SMU (TX)

I think we are over 10 years away from an end game. Which sucks. Just get over with.

I think both the B1G and SEC are looking at UNC next. That is the first domino. I think Miami is the next move. So one conference will get UNC plus whomever they want to join them. While the other will get Miami and one other (if B1G I think GA Tech).

So the ACC will lose 4 teams next round but stick it out another 4-5 years before round two comes along.


I hope that we see conference divisions of 5-6 teams, with conference semi finals added. Then we can have SU, BC, Pitt, WV, UConn in a division where we play each yearly in FB and 2x a year in BBall. Winner of the division makes the conference semis in FB.
 
I think we are over 10 years away from an end game. Which sucks. Just get over with.

I think both the B1G and SEC are looking at UNC next. That is the first domino. I think Miami is the next move. So one conference will get UNC plus whomever they want to join them. While the other will get Miami and one other (if B1G I think GA Tech).

So the ACC will lose 4 teams next round but stick it out another 4-5 years before round two comes along.


I hope that we see conference divisions of 5-6 teams, with conference semi finals added. Then we can have SU, BC, Pitt, WV, UConn in a division where we play each yearly in FB and 2x a year in BBall. Winner of the division makes the conference semis in FB.
I think the major shifts will happen all at once. The fear of getting left behind will drive more teams to the big 12 (Pitt, UL, VT, NC St). I do think North Carolina is the linchpin and where they go will result in a lot of dominoes.
 
I think the major shifts will happen all at once. The fear of getting left behind will drive more teams to the big 12 (Pitt, UL, VT, NC St). I do think North Carolina is the linchpin and where they go will result in a lot of dominoes.
Neither the B1G nor SEC have announced more than 2 teams at a time. They want to ease new schools in and not kill a conference. I don’t see that changing.

No ACC team is paying the exit fee to go to the B12. They might leave in 2036 but not before.

Also if the new B12 contract isn’t good, the ACC might be the winner here. Especially if ESPN wants it.
 
I’m sorry it does feel hopeless. I liken us to one of those small market mlb teams that spends about 10% of what the Yankees, Dodgers etc do. We are essentially a seat filler and any occasional talent we get will just be poached at the next portal opening by one of the behemoths.

If we can’t figure out how to get funds at least somewhat in the neighborhood of the big boys are ceiling will be very low. I don’t think any of us want to just scratch out 6-6 seasons to go to a more meaningless than ever bowl game.

2018 & 2024 were really fun but feel like one-offs driven by singular talents & soft schedules (if we’re being honest).
Post Covid year Dino was building a solid foundation that lacked the ability to make it through a full season. They went to bowls the two years prior to 24 and should have won at least 6 games in 21. The seasoned talent Fran brought in combined with that foundation got the team to 10 wins, and it should have been better.

Why would you think it was hopeless when it has been demonstrated twice in 7 years dbl digit wins are achievable.
 
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This thread is funny to me considering Indiana - who has the most losses in the history of college football - is the clear national title favorite.

I think this is a fair rebuttal, I even pointed out Indiana and Vanderbilt in my OP that kicked off this thread. But I would also argue that it misses some very important context. Such as the following:

1. We are in year 3 of NIL, and functionally we are really in year 2 of NIL being the primary determining factor of who gets the best recruits and transfers. EVERY team in college football is still adjusting to the NIL reality, and making adjustments based on what they find. As the teams with the most money become more experienced at navigating NIL, as they use their money to hire the coaches who navigate NIL the most successfully, they will further optimize for success in the NIL era. A lot of lessons will be learned in this first 5 years which will become principles upon which all programs operate. As those principles become more clear, the teams with the biggest NIL advantages will be able to maximize those advantages.

2. The price teams pay for players continues to skyrocket. The CBS article which reported an average of $600,000 per SEC caliber starter also said that last year that number was more like $300,000. Let's say Syracuse football actually got the $6-8 million in NIL money we sought to get this season. That would get us 20-27 starting caliber players. Now that number has been reduced to 10-13 starting caliber players, and I think we all know our NIL budget will not be doubled to match the price increases on starting caliber talent. So the barrier to entry continues to increase as we get further into the NIL era.

3. Indiana and Vanderbilt have MUCH larger budgets than we do. It has been publicly reported that Indiana is 12th or 13th nationally in NIL spending, and they just paid Cignetti an amount that we couldn't even dream of matching. Vanderbilt was reported to have an explosion of NIL money in 2023, which clearly has led to greater success in 2024 and 2025. They raised $6 million in ONE WEEK at the end of the 2023 season. That was reportedly our GOAL for TOTAL NIL spending going into 2025. So neither of these schools are economic peers, and that's really what matters in the modern landscape.

4. There are VERY legitimate questions as to whether we even have the fundraising capacity as a university to fully fund the $20.5 million in annual revenue sharing that we would need to commit in order to compete. Our current fundraising campaign seeks to raise $50 million over 3 years to directly pay players, which is $16.67 million per year. So our fundraising GOAL doesn't even cover the full cost of revenue sharing, and leaves nearly $4 million to be financed through other means. I have very significant doubts as to whether we have sufficient donors and institutional support to cover revenue sharing, much less any NIL that our fanbase has to come up with on top of that.

This is why I have come to the conclusion that we would be far better off focusing on basketball at this point. I don't see us as a viable competitor in the football arms race. If we weren't a private school in one of the most economically declining regions in America, which is also the region of America where college football is the least popular, we wouldn't be in such a difficult spot. But the combination of those things, a combination that only us and Boston College have to deal with at the P4 level as far as I can tell, conspire to uniquely put us in a horrible position to compete going forward.
 
Not a lost cause.

However, SU needs to decide what it wants its athletics department to be. Are we (a) truly going to invest and fund what it'll take to field competitive programs or (b) are we going to tinker around the edges and perpetuate the illusion that we're competitive.

I think some folks on the Hill understand what (a) involves, but I also suspect that many more still have a pre-NIL, pre-direct player compensation mindset.

College sports are now professional sports. Period. Schools will either adapt or die.

I do agree with others that we should have very different expectations for football and men's basketball. The latter should be a premiere program capable of annual top 25 finishes and title contention. The former should be over .500 most years with the occasional run at a conference title and CFP spot. Occasional may be once-per-decade, honestly.
 
I think this is a fair rebuttal, I even pointed out Indiana and Vanderbilt in my OP that kicked off this thread. But I would also argue that it misses some very important context. Such as the following:

1. We are in year 3 of NIL, and functionally we are really in year 2 of NIL being the primary determining factor of who gets the best recruits and transfers. EVERY team in college football is still adjusting to the NIL reality, and making adjustments based on what they find. As the teams with the most money become more experienced at navigating NIL, as they use their money to hire the coaches who navigate NIL the most successfully, they will further optimize for success in the NIL era. A lot of lessons will be learned in this first 5 years which will become principles upon which all programs operate. As those principles become more clear, the teams with the biggest NIL advantages will be able to maximize those advantages.

2. The price teams pay for players continues to skyrocket. The CBS article which reported an average of $600,000 per SEC caliber starter also said that last year that number was more like $300,000. Let's say Syracuse football actually got the $6-8 million in NIL money we sought to get this season. That would get us 20-27 starting caliber players. Now that number has been reduced to 10-13 starting caliber players, and I think we all know our NIL budget will not be doubled to match the price increases on starting caliber talent. So the barrier to entry continues to increase as we get further into the NIL era.

3. Indiana and Vanderbilt have MUCH larger budgets than we do. It has been publicly reported that Indiana is 12th or 13th nationally in NIL spending, and they just paid Cignetti an amount that we couldn't even dream of matching. Vanderbilt was reported to have an explosion of NIL money in 2023, which clearly has led to greater success in 2024 and 2025. They raised $6 million in ONE WEEK at the end of the 2023 season. That was reportedly our GOAL for TOTAL NIL spending going into 2025. So neither of these schools are economic peers, and that's really what matters in the modern landscape.

4. There are VERY legitimate questions as to whether we even have the fundraising capacity as a university to fully fund the $20.5 million in annual revenue sharing that we would need to commit in order to compete. Our current fundraising campaign seeks to raise $50 million over 3 years to directly pay players, which is $16.67 million per year. So our fundraising GOAL doesn't even cover the full cost of revenue sharing, and leaves nearly $4 million to be financed through other means. I have very significant doubts as to whether we have sufficient donors and institutional support to cover revenue sharing, much less any NIL that our fanbase has to come up with on top of that.

This is why I have come to the conclusion that we would be far better off focusing on basketball at this point. I don't see us as a viable competitor in the football arms race. If we weren't a private school in one of the most economically declining regions in America, which is also the region of America where college football is the least popular, we wouldn't be in such a difficult spot. But the combination of those things, a combination that only us and Boston College have to deal with at the P4 level as far as I can tell, conspire to uniquely put us in a horrible position to compete going forward.
Points 1-2 I have issues with. 3-4 are valid concerns.

1. We’re in year 5 of NIL - and won 10 games in year 4. We’re in year 1 (going on 2) of revenue share. Which leads me to point 2.

2. I assume you mean 6-8 million was the collective’s goal for NIL? I don’t know exactly what we’re spending, but let’s say 14 of the 20.5 million is football (this is just a guess based on what I’ve seen public schools breakdowns are). If you get 6-8 in NIL on top of that, that’s 20-22 million. That’d seem to be in line with what Fran said “not the most, not the least.” That number is below the current title contenders, but not out of the realm of building a very competitive team.
 
This thread is funny to me considering Indiana - who has the most losses in the history of college football - is the clear national title favorite.
Indiana has created the financial means to compete at a national championship level.

It is hard for me to believe, as an Indiana alum, but from what I have been told, IU has the largest alumni association in the United States.

It is, of course, a public university.

It has the financial might to do what Syracuse University may not be able to do.

I think that is the message that is being conveyed.
 
Not a lost cause.

However, SU needs to decide what it wants its athletics department to be. Are we (a) truly going to invest and fund what it'll take to field competitive programs or (b) are we going to tinker around the edges and perpetuate the illusion that we're competitive.

I think some folks on the Hill understand what (a) involves, but I also suspect that many more still have a pre-NIL, pre-direct player compensation mindset.

College sports are now professional sports. Period. Schools will either adapt or die.

I do agree with others that we should have very different expectations for football and men's basketball. The latter should be a premiere program capable of annual top 25 finishes and title contention. The former should be over .500 most years with the occasional run at a conference title and CFP spot. Occasional may be once-per-decade, honestly.
We are going to take track B until we are kicked out of the sandbox.
 
Not a lost cause.

However, SU needs to decide what it wants its athletics department to be. Are we (a) truly going to invest and fund what it'll take to field competitive programs or (b) are we going to tinker around the edges and perpetuate the illusion that we're competitive.

I think some folks on the Hill understand what (a) involves, but I also suspect that many more still have a pre-NIL, pre-direct player compensation mindset.

College sports are now professional sports. Period. Schools will either adapt or die.

I do agree with others that we should have very different expectations for football and men's basketball. The latter should be a premiere program capable of annual top 25 finishes and title contention. The former should be over .500 most years with the occasional run at a conference title and CFP spot. Occasional may be once-per-decade, honestly.
What you have described is not all that different from the expectations that were in place in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

The football program hoped to be in the top 25 from year to year and hoped to have a magical season from time to time - 1987.

The basketball program hoped to compete for a NC year to year.

I hope we can track that era in SU sports.

I am not so certain that we can do so.
 
2-10
5-7
2-10
7-6

Those are Clark Lea's records the first 4 years. Saying year 3 is do or die is silly, especially when year 1 was a winning record. Progress is not typically linear. If the coach is willing to make adjustments to address his weaknesses after 1 losing season, saying 8 wins or bust the next year is short sighted.
Especially the current climate, being a private university and so much more. We can do this though it has to full support, big picture view. some of the posters I honestly question their knowledge levels in reality let alone level of integrity. Almost complaining just to complain sortoflikesyracuse.com where so many true Syracuse fans came over here because that place was literally foul. Any current correlations to this board?
 
UMass is not major college, P4 football
So, if we go 5-7 next year, you think we should fire the coach? I don't agree with that at all. We are recruiting at a higher level than we have in ages. We had a 10 win season. Not the norm for us. Yes, we had a disgraceful season this year. The loss of our starting qb had more than a little to do with that. We can't just keep firing coaches. We need stability. And a plan. I think Brown gives us this. We knew he wasn't a x and o guy when we hired him. A little patience might be in order.
 
What you have described is not all that different from the expectations that were in place in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

The football program hoped to be in the top 25 from year to year and hoped to have a magical season from time to time - 1987.

The basketball program hoped to compete for a NC year to year.

I hope we can track that era in SU sports.

I am not so certain that we can do so.
Of course you aren't. We didn't know at that time that we could be as good in football as we were until, we were. We won't know for certain until we do it. If we can.
 
This thread is funny to me considering Indiana - who has the most losses in the history of college football - is the clear national title favorite.
History is largely irrelevant to the present day.

IU appears to have hit a home run with Cignetti, but check out the huge extension he received to keep him there. IU has alumni money, most notably Mark Cuban.


Good article. Not surprising, most of the CFP teams have some of the biggest athletics/NIL budgets.
 
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I tried posting this on basketball side, same question and got deleted… let’s it ride on football hmmmm
Even if you disagree with the post that started this thread, it was obviously thought out and intended to start a genuine discussion. All you do is troll the hoops board and it's getting really old.
 
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If we can’t then the SU administration should be transparent as they come to that conclusion.
Don’t think transparency would be helpful to the health of the program if they were considering dropping down, but waiting to see if things can improve.
 

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