Inside the Numbers - It's not even close

[suloyalfan]

The teams are fairly evenly matched regardless of what anyone wants to argue.

Here are some nuggets:

Minnesota Rushing vs. BCS AQ teams (8 games) - 3.65 yds/att on 43.88 att/game

Syracuse Rushing vs. BCS AQ teams (10 games) - 4.55 yds/att on 41.5 att/game

Minnesota Passing vs. BCS AQ teams - 160.9 yds/att on 21.9 att/game

Syracuse Passing vs. BCS AQ teams - 161.3 yds/att on 31.5 att/game

So, clearly Syracuse has a significantly more potent rushing offense against the best competition (BCS AQ teams) that they've played. Their passing offense is similarly poor as Minnesota. Syracuse offense runs at a faster pace than Minnesota, thus the 73 plays per game versus about 66 plays per game for Minnesota.

Minnesota is 4-4 against BCS AQ competition, while Syracuse is 4-6. I think the biggest thing that Minnesota fans feel they can "crow" about when comparing the 2 teams is their head-to-head wins over Northwestern and Penn State. Obviously, the circumstances of the games that Syracuse played versus those teams was different than when Minnesota played against them. Either way, I'm not even going to address the Penn State game because it was close throughout and could have gone either way, it was the first game of the season with a new coaching staff, new QB, and was essentially a road game.

When Syracuse played Northwestern they were rolling as the #19 team in the country. Siemian, Colter, and Mark were all playing in the game. The game Northwestern played against Minnesota, Colter and Mark were both out with injuries. Colter accounted for almost 24% of the team's rushing yards for year, and over 20% of their passing yards while missing 2 games and part of at least 1 other game with injury. Veneric Mark accounted for 182 yards rushing on 20 carries (9.1 ypc) and 2 rushing touchdowns against Minnesota last year. Does anyone think this game may have been different with these 2 players healthy and on the field? Also, keep in mind that Minnesota won their game against Northwestern by 3 points. They were outgained in the game, but did manage to force 3 turnovers, one of which was an interception return for a TD. Their offense only managed 299 yards and 13 points (7 were scored by the defense) against the porous Northwestern defense, while Syracuse racked up 434 yards and 27 points even with 4 turnovers, all in Northwestern territory.

 

[DynstyUgrl]

I think some of you were overly critical or mean to Ski-U-Mah. The post that started this thread was not written by him. I recognize it as a post that went up at the Gopherhole and it was not written by Ski-U-Mah. And I think he was being silly when he brought up the thing about inventing cheerleading. But I probably shouldn't speak for someone else. But I like Ski-U-Mah and don't feel he deserved the criticism he received. The original poster might?

 

[kcsu]

Minny gets their ass handed to them by NDSU each year enough said about the strength of their football team. As to Bball they are not on the same planet as us.

 

[DynstyUgrl]

Minny gets their ass handed to them by NDSU each year enough said about the strength of their football team. As to Bball they are not on the same planet as us.

Is that so? Is that what the evidence suggests?! UMn's only lost to NDSU twice in its entire history. And NDSU is at least arguably the best fb program in Div 1AA.

Syracuse has lost 101 games to Div 1AA teams. UMn's only lost 4.

And UMn's never lost to a Div 2 team. Syracuse has!

UMn's only lost 9 games to Div 3 teams, and 5 of those losses were to Chicago and happened before 1914, when Chicago was one of the better football teams in the nation.

Syracuse has lost 28 games to Div 3 teams.

Totally, that's 13 losses to non Div 1A teams for Minnesota, and 130 for Syracuse.

13 vs 130. That's TEN TIMES as many!!!


All of those numbers can be checked at cfbdatawarehouse dot com and are based on teams current conf and div affiliations.


And as for basketball, its true Syracuse has done much better than Minnesota in that one sport, and for that Orange fans should be proud, but despite all that success Syracuse has had at the Big Dance, its amusing to me that Minnesota has still put more players into the NBA than Syracuse has, 45 to 33. At least according to databasebasketball dot com.

I think it would be fun to have a sort of paper match up, like the NBA All-Star game, but with every one of the 13 players on each side being from either Minnesota or Syracuse. My guess is Minnesota's All-Star team would whoop up on Syracuse's. Maybe? Maybe not?! lol It would be fun either way.


Minnesota has also put twice as many cfb "players" into the cfb Hall of Fame as well, 18 to 9. That information can be verified at the NFF website.

I'm not including coaches in those numbers, just because coaches are paid, hired to come to a school, unlike players who choose where they want to go to play.

Half of the coaches in the cfb HOF who coached at Syracuse only coached there for 1 or 2 years anyway. Much more impressive is the fact that 5 former Gopher players went on to make it into the cfb Hall of Fame as coaches. I'll put those 5 along with Henry Williams up against Syracuse's best 6 coaches, whether hired or an alum, anytime of the day. Bud Wilkinson, voted Natl Coach of the Century, 47 game winning streak, 3 Natl Titles. Bernie Bierman, 5 Natl Titles, voted Big Ten Coach of the Century, arguably a better coach than Wilkinson, needed a world war to bring down his dynasty. Gil Dobie, longest unbeaten streak in NCAA cfb history, 63 games, 2 Natl Titles while at Cornell, never lost a single game in 8 or 9 seasons at Washington. Clark Shaughnessy was nominated 3 separate times for the NFL HOF as a coach after only coaching 3 seasons in the NFL because of the incredible influence he had on the way NFL fb was played. Won a Natl Title at Stanford. Biggie Munn made Michigan St into a Natl power and won 2 Natl Titles. And finally Henry Williams, a revolutionary coach, his Minnesota shift was utilized throughout cfb. He invented the modern backfield in the original Brown Jug game of 1903. But if I needed to go with only alum, I am sure I could find one more with a stellar record who didn't coach long enough to garner HOF status, but would still easily match any 6th coach Syracuse could muster up.




Minnesota has also had more All-Americans in cfb as well, despite what a few posters here have stated.

Syracuse fans here seem to credit UMn only with the # of Consensus AA's it supposedly has according to, my guess is, info from Wikipedia, lol. So its not their fault necessarily for misunderstanding this. While they list any and every player of theirs who've ever gotten an AA nod and then claim how they've had more. Stupid Wikipedia. lol

Looking at the # of Walter Camp 1st Team AAs shows UMn has 40 to Syracuse's 20 or 21.

I believe the # of consensus AAs mirrors those WC #s, 40 to 21. Almost double what Syracuse has.

Then the # of unanimous is 7 for Syracuse and around a dozen for UMn.

And looking at comprehensive lists at each school's own websites, it shows that Syracuse has only 42 individual AAs with a total of 53 AA nods, while Minnesota has 55 individual players with 69 total AA nods. Not sure if Syracuse is including any 2nd or 3rd teamers or not, I just know those 55/69 for UMn are strictly 1st teamers.

So the Syracuse fans who have been touting more All-Americans than Minnesota were simply misled by a misleading Wikipedia article.

As for the vaunted 7 Pro Hall of Famers vs only 6 for UMn?

That advantage will only last a short time as Tony Dungy breaches the 5 year mark sometime in the next 2 months. And he's a guaranteed shoo-in 1st ballet HOFer.

And my guess is that if we compared the # of players who've made NFL All-Decade Teams, Gophers would outnumber Oranges by at least 1, maybe more? We've had over 10.

And former Gopher fb players account for approx. 10% of the leading scorers in NFL history(10 since 1934) and 10% of the coaches of recognized Natl Championship teams(14) from 1920 to the present and both the longest unbeaten streak in Div 1A cfb history, and the longest winning streak in Div 1A cfb history.


So, TWICE as many Walter Camp 1st team AAs,
and TWICE as many cfb Hall of Fame "players",
and TWICE as many Top 4 AP poll finishes,
and almost twice as many Top 8 AP poll finishes(would be double if the 1934 AP poll that had UMn #1 was counted),
and has won THREE straight against the Orange,
and SIX TIMES AS MANY recognized Natl Titles!


Bring up # of bowl games all you want, the Orange should be proud of how well they've done in bowl games, but remember that the Big Ten didn't even allow Big Ten teams to compete in bowl games until after WWII, and then they only allowed the Conf Champ to play in one until the late 70s. It's kind of an unfair argument, although the Orange's bowl record IS something to be proud of, I just don't think it can be used to show superiority over the Gophers when other variables can be measured more fairly, like Natl Titles, AAs, HOFers, head to head, etc..


So now that I've posted a rebuttal containing factual information, I suppose I'll be banned soon, eh?! Naw, I've been nice, haven't I? I'm an Orange fan, sort of. Won't be on Dec 27th, but otherwise I like Syracuse, wish the B1G had taken you guys instead of Rutgers, but oh well. This was a long winded and probably boring post, but I tried not to pull a Ski-U-Mah and say anything about cheerleading, lol, and for the long windedness I apologize, and it took me too long to write anyways, so I promise it will be my last novella. I just don't want to get banned because I think it would be fun to do that NBA All-Star paper matchup thingy. Then after that whoopin you can ban me, eh? You betcha can!!!

 

[SBro44]

I don't know how we rank in cheerleading... but do any of you guys remember that batton girl from about 10 years ago?? She would blow my mind at half time. Throwing it up in the air flipping and what not and then catching it.

If she isn't in batton girl HOF thats tragic

 

[ImperialOrange]

I think some of you were overly critical or mean to Ski-U-Mah. The post that started this thread was not written by him. I recognize it as a post that went up at the Gopherhole and it was not written by Ski-U-Mah. And I think he was being silly when he brought up the thing about inventing cheerleading. But I probably shouldn't speak for someone else. But I like Ski-U-Mah and don't feel he deserved the criticism he received. The original poster might?

Perhaps a disclaimer would've been useful? I'd venture to guess (or would hope) Ski-U-Mah isn't losing any sleep over useless message board banter.

 

[bnoro]

Is that so? Is that what the evidence suggests?! UMn's only lost to NDSU twice in its entire history. And NDSU is at least arguably the best fb program in Div 1AA.

Syracuse has lost 101 games to Div 1AA teams. UMn's only lost 4.

And UMn's never lost to a Div 2 team. Syracuse has!

UMn's only lost 9 games to Div 3 teams, and 5 of those losses were to Chicago and happened before 1914, when Chicago was one of the better football teams in the nation.

Syracuse has lost 28 games to Div 3 teams.

Totally, that's 13 losses to non Div 1A teams for Minnesota, and 130 for Syracuse.

13 vs 130. That's TEN TIMES as many!!!


All of those numbers can be checked at cfbdatawarehouse dot com and are based on teams current conf and div affiliations.


And as for basketball, its true Syracuse has done much better than Minnesota in that one sport, and for that Orange fans should be proud, but despite all that success Syracuse has had at the Big Dance, its amusing to me that Minnesota has still put more players into the NBA than Syracuse has, 45 to 33. At least according to databasebasketball dot com.

I think it would be fun to have a sort of paper match up, like the NBA All-Star game, but with every one of the 13 players on each side being from either Minnesota or Syracuse. My guess is Minnesota's All-Star team would whoop up on Syracuse's. Maybe? Maybe not?! lol It would be fun either way.


Minnesota has also put twice as many cfb "players" into the cfb Hall of Fame as well, 18 to 9. That information can be verified at the NFF website.

I'm not including coaches in those numbers, just because coaches are paid, hired to come to a school, unlike players who choose where they want to go to play.

Half of the coaches in the cfb HOF who coached at Syracuse only coached there for 1 or 2 years anyway. Much more impressive is the fact that 5 former Gopher players went on to make it into the cfb Hall of Fame as coaches. I'll put those 5 along with Henry Williams up against Syracuse's best 6 coaches, whether hired or an alum, anytime of the day. Bud Wilkinson, voted Natl Coach of the Century, 47 game winning streak, 3 Natl Titles. Bernie Bierman, 5 Natl Titles, voted Big Ten Coach of the Century, arguably a better coach than Wilkinson, needed a world war to bring down his dynasty. Gil Dobie, longest unbeaten streak in NCAA cfb history, 63 games, 2 Natl Titles while at Cornell, never lost a single game in 8 or 9 seasons at Washington. Clark Shaughnessy was nominated 3 separate times for the NFL HOF as a coach after only coaching 3 seasons in the NFL because of the incredible influence he had on the way NFL fb was played. Won a Natl Title at Stanford. Biggie Munn made Michigan St into a Natl power and won 2 Natl Titles. And finally Henry Williams, a revolutionary coach, his Minnesota shift was utilized throughout cfb. He invented the modern backfield in the original Brown Jug game of 1903. But if I needed to go with only alum, I am sure I could find one more with a stellar record who didn't coach long enough to garner HOF status, but would still easily match any 6th coach Syracuse could muster up.




Minnesota has also had more All-Americans in cfb as well, despite what a few posters here have stated.

Syracuse fans here seem to credit UMn only with the # of Consensus AA's it supposedly has according to, my guess is, info from Wikipedia, lol. So its not their fault necessarily for misunderstanding this. While they list any and every player of theirs who've ever gotten an AA nod and then claim how they've had more. Stupid Wikipedia. lol

Looking at the # of Walter Camp 1st Team AAs shows UMn has 40 to Syracuse's 20 or 21.

I believe the # of consensus AAs mirrors those WC #s, 40 to 21. Almost double what Syracuse has.

Then the # of unanimous is 7 for Syracuse and around a dozen for UMn.

And looking at comprehensive lists at each school's own websites, it shows that Syracuse has only 42 individual AAs with a total of 53 AA nods, while Minnesota has 55 individual players with 69 total AA nods. Not sure if Syracuse is including any 2nd or 3rd teamers or not, I just know those 55/69 for UMn are strictly 1st teamers.

So the Syracuse fans who have been touting more All-Americans than Minnesota were simply misled by a misleading Wikipedia article.

As for the vaunted 7 Pro Hall of Famers vs only 6 for UMn?

That advantage will only last a short time as Tony Dungy breaches the 5 year mark sometime in the next 2 months. And he's a guaranteed shoo-in 1st ballet HOFer.

And my guess is that if we compared the # of players who've made NFL All-Decade Teams, Gophers would outnumber Oranges by at least 1, maybe more? We've had over 10.

And former Gopher fb players account for approx. 10% of the leading scorers in NFL history(10 since 1934) and 10% of the coaches of recognized Natl Championship teams(14) from 1920 to the present and both the longest unbeaten streak in Div 1A cfb history, and the longest winning streak in Div 1A cfb history.


So, TWICE as many Walter Camp 1st team AAs,
and TWICE as many cfb Hall of Fame "players",
and TWICE as many Top 4 AP poll finishes,
and almost twice as many Top 8 AP poll finishes(would be double if the 1934 AP poll that had UMn #1 was counted),
and has won THREE straight against the Orange,
and SIX TIMES AS MANY recognized Natl Titles!


Bring up # of bowl games all you want, the Orange should be proud of how well they've done in bowl games, but remember that the Big Ten didn't even allow Big Ten teams to compete in bowl games until after WWII, and then they only allowed the Conf Champ to play in one until the late 70s. It's kind of an unfair argument, although the Orange's bowl record IS something to be proud of, I just don't think it can be used to show superiority over the Gophers when other variables can be measured more fairly, like Natl Titles, AAs, HOFers, head to head, etc..


So now that I've posted a rebuttal containing factual information, I suppose I'll be banned soon, eh?! Naw, I've been nice, haven't I? I'm an Orange fan, sort of. Won't be on Dec 27th, but otherwise I like Syracuse, wish the B1G had taken you guys instead of Rutgers, but oh well. This was a long winded and probably boring post, but I tried not to pull a Ski-U-Mah and say anything about cheerleading, lol, and for the long windedness I apologize, and it took me too long to write anyways, so I promise it will be my last novella. I just don't want to get banned because I think it would be fun to do that NBA All-Star paper matchup thingy. Then after that whoopin you can ban me, eh? You betcha can!!!

So penalizing Syracuse for playing Colgate, Holy Cross, and other schools of the like makes sense even though we haven't played them in years?

 

[NineOneSeven]

Go bills

 

[Ozcuse]

Oh yeah? Well we invented the missionary position.

You're welcome.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Is that so? Is that what the evidence suggests?! UMn's only lost to NDSU twice in its entire history. And NDSU is at least arguably the best fb program in Div 1AA.

Syracuse has lost 101 games to Div 1AA teams. UMn's only lost 4.

And UMn's never lost to a Div 2 team. Syracuse has!

UMn's only lost 9 games to Div 3 teams, and 5 of those losses were to Chicago and happened before 1914, when Chicago was one of the better football teams in the nation.

Syracuse has lost 28 games to Div 3 teams.

Totally, that's 13 losses to non Div 1A teams for Minnesota, and 130 for Syracuse.

13 vs 130. That's TEN TIMES as many!!!


All of those numbers can be checked at cfbdatawarehouse dot com and are based on teams current conf and div affiliations. I'm not sure current conference and division affiliations really fit this arguement. Holy Cross and Colgate used to be big time programs for example.


And as for basketball, its true Syracuse has done much better than Minnesota in that one sport, and for that Orange fans should be proud, but despite all that success Syracuse has had at the Big Dance, its amusing to me that Minnesota has still put more players into the NBA than Syracuse has, 45 to 33. At least according to databasebasketball dot com.

Might not be the best source? http://www.orangehoops.org/SyracuseNBA.htm

I think it would be fun to have a sort of paper match up, like the NBA All-Star game, but with every one of the 13 players on each side being from either Minnesota or Syracuse. My guess is Minnesota's All-Star team would whoop up on Syracuse's. Maybe? Maybe not?! lol It would be fun either way.

Agreed

Minnesota has also put twice as many cfb "players" into the cfb Hall of Fame as well, 18 to 9. That information can be verified at the NFF website.

10 but close http://www.suathletics.com/sports/2009/12/2/FB_1202091950.aspx

I'm not including coaches in those numbers, just because coaches are paid, hired to come to a school, unlike players who choose where they want to go to play.

Half of the coaches in the cfb HOF who coached at Syracuse only coached there for 1 or 2 years anyway. Much more impressive is the fact that 5 former Gopher players went on to make it into the cfb Hall of Fame as coaches. I'll put those 5 along with Henry Williams up against Syracuse's best 6 coaches, whether hired or an alum, anytime of the day. Bud Wilkinson, voted Natl Coach of the Century, 47 game winning streak, 3 Natl Titles. Bernie Bierman, 5 Natl Titles, voted Big Ten Coach of the Century, arguably a better coach than Wilkinson, needed a world war to bring down his dynasty. Gil Dobie, longest unbeaten streak in NCAA cfb history, 63 games, 2 Natl Titles while at Cornell, never lost a single game in 8 or 9 seasons at Washington. Clark Shaughnessy was nominated 3 separate times for the NFL HOF as a coach after only coaching 3 seasons in the NFL because of the incredible influence he had on the way NFL fb was played. Won a Natl Title at Stanford. Biggie Munn made Michigan St into a Natl power and won 2 Natl Titles. And finally Henry Williams, a revolutionary coach, his Minnesota shift was utilized throughout cfb. He invented the modern backfield in the original Brown Jug game of 1903. But if I needed to go with only alum, I am sure I could find one more with a stellar record who didn't coach long enough to garner HOF status, but would still easily match any 6th coach Syracuse could muster up.

Wasn't a lot of this pre 1950s when CFB was still a segregated sport?

Minnesota has also had more All-Americans in cfb as well, despite what a few posters here have stated.

Syracuse fans here seem to credit UMn only with the # of Consensus AA's it supposedly has according to, my guess is, info from Wikipedia, lol. So its not their fault necessarily for misunderstanding this. While they list any and every player of theirs who've ever gotten an AA nod and then claim how they've had more. Stupid Wikipedia. lol

Looking at the # of Walter Camp 1st Team AAs shows UMn has 40 to Syracuse's 20 or 21.

I believe the # of consensus AAs mirrors those WC #s, 40 to 21. Almost double what Syracuse has.

What are the numbers from 1950 on?

Then the # of unanimous is 7 for Syracuse and around a dozen for UMn.

And looking at comprehensive lists at each school's own websites, it shows that Syracuse has only 42 individual AAs with a total of 53 AA nods, while Minnesota has 55 individual players with 69 total AA nods. Not sure if Syracuse is including any 2nd or 3rd teamers or not, I just know those 55/69 for UMn are strictly 1st teamers.

So the Syracuse fans who have been touting more All-Americans than Minnesota were simply misled by a misleading Wikipedia article.

As for the vaunted 7 Pro Hall of Famers vs only 6 for UMn?

That advantage will only last a short time as Tony Dungy breaches the 5 year mark sometime in the next 2 months. And he's a guaranteed shoo-in 1st ballet HOFer.

And Dungy will be evened out when SU alum Tom Coughlin hangs them up from the NY Giants.

And my guess is that if we compared the # of players who've made NFL All-Decade Teams, Gophers would outnumber Oranges by at least 1, maybe more? We've had over 10.

And former Gopher fb players account for approx. 10% of the leading scorers in NFL history(10 since 1934) and 10% of the coaches of recognized Natl Championship teams(14) from 1920 to the present and both the longest unbeaten streak in Div 1A cfb history, and the longest winning streak in Div 1A cfb history.


So, TWICE as many Walter Camp 1st team AAs,
and TWICE as many cfb Hall of Fame "players",
and TWICE as many Top 4 AP poll finishes,
and almost twice as many Top 8 AP poll finishes(would be double if the 1934 AP poll that had UMn #1 was counted),
and has won THREE straight against the Orange,
and SIX TIMES AS MANY recognized Natl Titles!

How about from 1950 on? I know, reaccuring theme but you sound a lot like us. We harp on our history too but tend to go from when the game was intergrated.

Bring up # of bowl games all you want, the Orange should be proud of how well they've done in bowl games, but remember that the Big Ten didn't even allow Big Ten teams to compete in bowl games until after WWII, and then they only allowed the Conf Champ to play in one until the late 70s. It's kind of an unfair argument, although the Orange's bowl record IS something to be proud of, I just don't think it can be used to show superiority over the Gophers when other variables can be measured more fairly, like Natl Titles, AAs, HOFers, head to head, etc..


So now that I've posted a rebuttal containing factual information, I suppose I'll be banned soon, eh?! Naw, I've been nice, haven't I? I'm an Orange fan, sort of. Won't be on Dec 27th, but otherwise I like Syracuse, wish the B1G had taken you guys instead of Rutgers, but oh well. This was a long winded and probably boring post, but I tried not to pull a Ski-U-Mah and say anything about cheerleading, lol, and for the long windedness I apologize, and it took me too long to write anyways, so I promise it will be my last novella. I just don't want to get banned because I think it would be fun to do that NBA All-Star paper matchup thingy. Then after that whoopin you can ban me, eh? You betcha can!!!

This is good post, and hopefully I gave you some good rebuttals or at least points of contention. Folks have to try really hard to get banned here. Certain opposing fans bases take pride in earning the honor actually.

I have no ill will against Minnesota any week we're not playing them. Some posts here, and linked, came off as overly cocky but if facts get brought into the equation you can get into good convo here. Lot's of knowledge (more than my own) flows on this board.

 

[DynstyUgrl]

So penalizing Syracuse for playing Colgate, Holy Cross, and other schools of the like makes sense even though we haven't played them in years?

No, that's a good point. I fully acknowledge that those numbers are misleading, and I guess I should have put a stronger disclaimer in the post. I know 5 of the Gopher's Div 3 losses were to Chicago from before 1914, when they were in the Big Ten and a legit cfb team. I'm sure that is the case with a lot of those games.

I tried to make sure that it was clear that it was the current divisions they are in now that were listed. I got the info from cfbdatawarehouse dot com. It looks like he's going to try to create another listing with records reflecting what conf and what division schools were in when the games were played. I was disappointed when I saw that he didn't have that done yet. I thought that he did in the past? But that would be a far more accurate way of looking at everything.

 

[CuseIsGodsTeam]

Did you really pull out the D1AA thing?

Alot of those teams were national powers back in the day!

 

[DynstyUgrl]

Did you really pull out the D1AA thing?

Alot of those teams were national powers back in the day!

I did. And honestly, NDSU is close to being a natl power now. They are rated as being a little better than Louisville and obviously Minnesota and Syracuse.

But you are right, a lot of those teams were legit teams back in the day. I'm hoping I can find a resource that has them grouped how they were at the time of the game.

 

[ImperialOrange]

I did. And honestly, NDSU is close to being a natl power now. They are rated as being a little better than Louisville and obviously Minnesota and Syracuse.

But you are right, a lot of those teams were legit teams back in the day. I'm hoping I can find a resource that has them grouped how they were at the time of the game.

I wouldn't want to play NDSU at the moment. I'm not sure any game listing is going to accurately depict the proper magnitude of games from way back when.

 

[rosconey]

the more i read the more i think Minnesota is a nj colony - they have as big a issue with reality as rutgers fans

 

[RMH44]

I wouldn't want to play NDSU at the moment. I'm not sure any game listing is going to accurately depict the proper magnitude of games from way back when.

Well here's a solution...how about using 1950 as a starting point. Large enough period of time to establish "tradition" and recent enough to be relevant to modern College FB.

 

[DynstyUgrl]

I wouldn't want to play NDSU at the moment. I'm not sure any game listing is going to accurately depict the proper magnitude of games from way back when.

Well, if I was a Syracuse fan and was given the proper motivation, I know where I could find the data to put those games in proper perspective, but I'm not a Syracuse fan. Sorry. It would be way too much work for me just to satisfy my curiousity. But I have a vague idea of what you are getting at. Colgate and Cornell and Holy Cross are teams that used to be considered cfb powers. Cornell won Natl Titles in 1921 and 1922 and went undefeated in 1923 as well. Former Gophers coached that Cornell team, and Dartmouth in 1925 and Holy Cross in the 30s I believe, and all when those teams were ranked or esteemed by the press and fans, etc..

So I know what you are getting at.

the more i read the more i think Minnesota is a nj colony - they have as big a issue with reality as rutgers fans

What are you talking about? Too much civil discussion going on, so you have to try to make some trouble? Explain yourself in more detail and then we'll see?

 

[ImperialOrange]

Well here's a solution...how about using 1950 as a starting point. Large enough period of time to establish "tradition" and recent enough to be relevant to modern College FB.

It's even tough to compare from then. Minnesota has been in the B1G since 1896, Cuse obviously was an independent until 1991. Can't really compare All conference players and such. Minne's last conference championship was 1967 but I'd presume theyve played conference slates through out. Our 2012 co championship is hard to compare with schedules including Ohio State, Michigan, etc. Our 96 and 98 BE championships look good over Miami FL, Va Tech, etc though.

It's and apples to oranges comparo... or orange to gopher as it were.

 

[DynstyUgrl]

Well here's a solution...how about using 1950 as a starting point. Large enough period of time to establish "tradition" and recent enough to be relevant to modern College FB.

The reason I don't like coming up with a starting point like 1950, is its too far back, honestly. I wasn't even born until 1967 and didn't start following cfb until the 70s. NOTHING that happened back then is relevant to what is going on now. Even going back more than 10 years, is very irrelevant. Even 5 years can be irrelevant, as not a single player on a team then is there now. So 2 years maybe, last year, sure, and definitely this year.

I'm a history buff, and the thing is, if you are going to go back any further than 5-10 years, you have to go all the way back, otherwise where do you start and how do you figure that out? There is no way of doing it in a way that is fair to all concerned unless you go all the way back to the beginning. My reasoning for thinking this is because I am a fan of the Coaching trees. Henry Williams was coach of the Minnesota Gophers until 1921. Several of his players went out into the cfb world as coaches, and one example, Bernie Bierman was one of his players, and guess who played for Bernie Bierman? Bud Wilkinson. And one of his asst coaches was Biggie Munn. And Biggie Munn and Ossie Solem, another Gopher, were on at least one coaching staff together, I believe, and they both went and coached at Syracuse. One of Biggie Munn's players went on to coach MSU to their titles in the 60's, and so on and so on. Cal Stoll played for Bernie Bierman I believe, and Tony Dungy and Marc Trestman were players for Cal Stoll I believe. Bud Grant played for Bernie Bierman as well. I could go on for days telling you about all of the interconnectedness of it all. Great coaches usually played for great coaches. And the mission of a university/college is to train young men and women to go out into the world and contribute to the world, or at least to be able to get a job out in the world. Well, coaching is a job, first of all, and its a way to contribute and to give back, to teach and lead others, to help influence a generation. And the superstars of the 70's that I grew up watching on tv, played their college ball back in the 50s and 60s, and the coaches sometimes traced back as far as the 40s, so I think the best way to honor them is to honor their teams and their coaches, who played and coached even further back. And so on and so forth.

So saying that starting at 1950 is a good starting point, only works for programs who did very little to help develop the sport of cfb, its robbing all of the schools who made significant contributions to what we call cfb today.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Well, if I was a Syracuse fan and was given the proper motivation, I know where I could find the data to put those games in proper perspective, but I'm not a Syracuse fan. Sorry. It would be way too much work for me just to satisfy my curiousity. But I have a vague idea of what you are getting at. Colgate and Cornell and Holy Cross are teams that used to be considered cfb powers. Cornell won Natl Titles in 1921 and 1922 and went undefeated in 1923 as well. Former Gophers coached that Cornell team, and Dartmouth in 1925 and Holy Cross in the 30s I believe, and all when those teams were ranked or esteemed by the press and fans, etc..

So I know what you are getting at.

Truthfully, I'm a 29 year old Syracuse fan and am not curious enough to dig that hard. Minnesota was obviously a powerhouse way back so I understand why your fan base is partial and willing to go the whole way back to the start.

Similarly, we brag on the 50's and 60's when we had some of the greatest players (argueably) of all time. Sadly, I never witnessed Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, or Floyd Little play in person so I can't attest to their individual greatness vs many you've listed. Suppose I also start around that time frame since prior, most schools didn't even allow or play against teams with non white players.

It's a fun exercise for the sake of learning other programs history but I didn't attend my first game until 1994. What I can attest to is Donovan McNabb, Dwight Freeney, Donovin Darius, Marvin Harrison, Walter Reyes, Damien Rhodes some of whom you know and more recently Delone Carter, Mike Williams, Alec Lemon, Ryan Nassib, Art Jones, and Chandler Jones of some whom you wouldn't know if you hadn't played us.

Eric Decker was a freak athlete as I witnessed first hand in 2009 though. I think you guys had a thumper of LB in that game as well though I can't recall his name.

 

[tep624]

The reason I don't like coming up with a starting point like 1950, is its too far back, honestly. I wasn't even born until 1967 and didn't start following cfb until the 70s. NOTHING that happened back then is relevant to what is going on now. Even going back more than 10 years, is very irrelevant. Even 5 years can be irrelevant, as not a single player on a team then is there now. So 2 years maybe, last year, sure, and definitely this year.

I'm a history buff, and the thing is, if you are going to go back any further than 5-10 years, you have to go all the way back, otherwise where do you start and how do you figure that out? There is no way of doing it in a way that is fair to all concerned unless you go all the way back to the beginning. My reasoning for thinking this is because I am a fan of the Coaching trees. Henry Williams was coach of the Minnesota Gophers until 1921. Several of his players went out into the cfb world as coaches, and one example, Bernie Bierman was one of his players, and guess who played for Bernie Bierman? Bud Wilkinson. And one of his asst coaches was Biggie Munn. And Biggie Munn and Ossie Solem, another Gopher, were on at least one coaching staff together, I believe, and they both went and coached at Syracuse. One of Biggie Munn's players went on to coach MSU to their titles in the 60's, and so on and so on. Cal Stoll played for Bernie Bierman I believe, and Tony Dungy and Marc Trestman were players for Cal Stoll I believe. Bud Grant played for Bernie Bierman as well. I could go on for days telling you about all of the interconnectedness of it all. Great coaches usually played for great coaches. And the mission of a university/college is to train young men and women to go out into the world and contribute to the world, or at least to be able to get a job out in the world. Well, coaching is a job, first of all, and its a way to contribute and to give back, to teach and lead others, to help influence a generation. And the superstars of the 70's that I grew up watching on tv, played their college ball back in the 50s and 60s, and the coaches sometimes traced back as far as the 40s, so I think the best way to honor them is to honor their teams and their coaches, who played and coached even further back. And so on and so forth.

So saying that starting at 1950 is a good starting point, only works for programs who did very little to help develop the sport of cfb, its robbing all of the schools who made significant contributions to what we call cfb today.

Not trying to be mean, but if you're a history buff, and a CFB fan, you'd think you would know that Colgate, Cornell, Army, Navy, Holy Cross, etc were all Divison 1 level teams in the 30's to 50's and during the War era were some of the stronger teams in the nation.

And I don't quite see how you basically leap to the conclusion that going back 5 years is as relevant as going back to 1869 when Rutgers was a powerhouse. The game has changed dramatically over the past 50 years let alone 150 years. There's a lot more relevance in going back say 50-60 years because of the cyclical nature of the sport. Teams go through spurts of relevance and irrelevance with exception to about 15-20 teams that are relevant just about every year.

 

[NKR1978]

Is that so? Is that what the evidence suggests?! UMn's only lost to NDSU twice in its entire history. And NDSU is at least arguably the best fb program in Div 1AA.

Syracuse has lost 101 games to Div 1AA teams. UMn's only lost 4.

And UMn's never lost to a Div 2 team. Syracuse has!

UMn's only lost 9 games to Div 3 teams, and 5 of those losses were to Chicago and happened before 1914, when Chicago was one of the better football teams in the nation.

Syracuse has lost 28 games to Div 3 teams.

Totally, that's 13 losses to non Div 1A teams for Minnesota, and 130 for Syracuse.

13 vs 130. That's TEN TIMES as many!!!

All of those numbers can be checked at cfbdatawarehouse dot com and are based on teams current conf and div affiliations.

And as for basketball, its true Syracuse has done much better than Minnesota in that one sport, and for that Orange fans should be proud, but despite all that success Syracuse has had at the Big Dance, its amusing to me that Minnesota has still put more players into the NBA than Syracuse has, 45 to 33. At least according to databasebasketball dot com.

I think it would be fun to have a sort of paper match up, like the NBA All-Star game, but with every one of the 13 players on each side being from either Minnesota or Syracuse. My guess is Minnesota's All-Star team would whoop up on Syracuse's. Maybe? Maybe not?! lol It would be fun either way.

Minnesota has also put twice as many cfb "players" into the cfb Hall of Fame as well, 18 to 9. That information can be verified at the NFF website.

I'm not including coaches in those numbers, just because coaches are paid, hired to come to a school, unlike players who choose where they want to go to play.

Half of the coaches in the cfb HOF who coached at Syracuse only coached there for 1 or 2 years anyway. Much more impressive is the fact that 5 former Gopher players went on to make it into the cfb Hall of Fame as coaches. I'll put those 5 along with Henry Williams up against Syracuse's best 6 coaches, whether hired or an alum, anytime of the day. Bud Wilkinson, voted Natl Coach of the Century, 47 game winning streak, 3 Natl Titles. Bernie Bierman, 5 Natl Titles, voted Big Ten Coach of the Century, arguably a better coach than Wilkinson, needed a world war to bring down his dynasty. Gil Dobie, longest unbeaten streak in NCAA cfb history, 63 games, 2 Natl Titles while at Cornell, never lost a single game in 8 or 9 seasons at Washington. Clark Shaughnessy was nominated 3 separate times for the NFL HOF as a coach after only coaching 3 seasons in the NFL because of the incredible influence he had on the way NFL fb was played. Won a Natl Title at Stanford. Biggie Munn made Michigan St into a Natl power and won 2 Natl Titles. And finally Henry Williams, a revolutionary coach, his Minnesota shift was utilized throughout cfb. He invented the modern backfield in the original Brown Jug game of 1903. But if I needed to go with only alum, I am sure I could find one more with a stellar record who didn't coach long enough to garner HOF status, but would still easily match any 6th coach Syracuse could muster up.

Minnesota has also had more All-Americans in cfb as well, despite what a few posters here have stated.

Syracuse fans here seem to credit UMn only with the # of Consensus AA's it supposedly has according to, my guess is, info from Wikipedia, lol. So its not their fault necessarily for misunderstanding this. While they list any and every player of theirs who've ever gotten an AA nod and then claim how they've had more. Stupid Wikipedia. lol

Looking at the # of Walter Camp 1st Team AAs shows UMn has 40 to Syracuse's 20 or 21.

I believe the # of consensus AAs mirrors those WC #s, 40 to 21. Almost double what Syracuse has.

Then the # of unanimous is 7 for Syracuse and around a dozen for UMn.

And looking at comprehensive lists at each school's own websites, it shows that Syracuse has only 42 individual AAs with a total of 53 AA nods, while Minnesota has 55 individual players with 69 total AA nods. Not sure if Syracuse is including any 2nd or 3rd teamers or not, I just know those 55/69 for UMn are strictly 1st teamers.

So the Syracuse fans who have been touting more All-Americans than Minnesota were simply misled by a misleading Wikipedia article.

As for the vaunted 7 Pro Hall of Famers vs only 6 for UMn?

That advantage will only last a short time as Tony Dungy breaches the 5 year mark sometime in the next 2 months. And he's a guaranteed shoo-in 1st ballet HOFer.

And my guess is that if we compared the # of players who've made NFL All-Decade Teams, Gophers would outnumber Oranges by at least 1, maybe more? We've had over 10.

And former Gopher fb players account for approx. 10% of the leading scorers in NFL history(10 since 1934) and 10% of the coaches of recognized Natl Championship teams(14) from 1920 to the present and both the longest unbeaten streak in Div 1A cfb history, and the longest winning streak in Div 1A cfb history.

So, TWICE as many Walter Camp 1st team AAs,
and TWICE as many cfb Hall of Fame "players",
and TWICE as many Top 4 AP poll finishes,
and almost twice as many Top 8 AP poll finishes(would be double if the 1934 AP poll that had UMn #1 was counted),
and has won THREE straight against the Orange,
and SIX TIMES AS MANY recognized Natl Titles!

Bring up # of bowl games all you want, the Orange should be proud of how well they've done in bowl games, but remember that the Big Ten didn't even allow Big Ten teams to compete in bowl games until after WWII, and then they only allowed the Conf Champ to play in one until the late 70s. It's kind of an unfair argument, although the Orange's bowl record IS something to be proud of, I just don't think it can be used to show superiority over the Gophers when other variables can be measured more fairly, like Natl Titles, AAs, HOFers, head to head, etc..

So now that I've posted a rebuttal containing factual information, I suppose I'll be banned soon, eh?! Naw, I've been nice, haven't I? I'm an Orange fan, sort of. Won't be on Dec 27th, but otherwise I like Syracuse, wish the B1G had taken you guys instead of Rutgers, but oh well. This was a long winded and probably boring post, but I tried not to pull a Ski-U-Mah and say anything about cheerleading, lol, and for the long windedness I apologize, and it took me too long to write anyways, so I promise it will be my last novella. I just don't want to get banned because I think it would be fun to do that NBA All-Star paper matchup thingy. Then after that whoopin you can ban me, eh? You betcha can!!!

tl;dr

 

[TheCusian]

The reason I don't like coming up with a starting point like 1950, is its too far back, honestly. I wasn't even born until 1967 and didn't start following cfb until the 70s. NOTHING that happened back then is relevant to what is going on now. Even going back more than 10 years, is very irrelevant. Even 5 years can be irrelevant, as not a single player on a team then is there now. So 2 years maybe, last year, sure, and definitely this year. I'm a history buff, and the thing is, if you are going to go back any further than 5-10 years, you have to go all the way back, otherwise where do you start and how do you figure that out? There is no way of doing it in a way that is fair to all concerned unless you go all the way back to the beginning. My reasoning for thinking this is because I am a fan of the Coaching trees. Henry Williams was coach of the Minnesota Gophers until 1921. Several of his players went out into the cfb world as coaches, and one example, Bernie Bierman was one of his players, and guess who played for Bernie Bierman? Bud Wilkinson. And one of his asst coaches was Biggie Munn. And Biggie Munn and Ossie Solem, another Gopher, were on at least one coaching staff together, I believe, and they both went and coached at Syracuse. One of Biggie Munn's players went on to coach MSU to their titles in the 60's, and so on and so on. Cal Stoll played for Bernie Bierman I believe, and Tony Dungy and Marc Trestman were players for Cal Stoll I believe. Bud Grant played for Bernie Bierman as well. I could go on for days telling you about all of the interconnectedness of it all. Great coaches usually played for great coaches. And the mission of a university/college is to train young men and women to go out into the world and contribute to the world, or at least to be able to get a job out in the world. Well, coaching is a job, first of all, and its a way to contribute and to give back, to teach and lead others, to help influence a generation. And the superstars of the 70's that I grew up watching on tv, played their college ball back in the 50s and 60s, and the coaches sometimes traced back as far as the 40s, so I think the best way to honor them is to honor their teams and their coaches, who played and coached even further back. And so on and so forth. So saying that starting at 1950 is a good starting point, only works for programs who did very little to help develop the sport of cfb, its robbing all of the schools who made significant contributions to what we call cfb today.

The 50's and 60's are a good place to start because everyone was allowed to play. I have a hard time believing anyone could be champion of anything like a NC when it willfully excluded whole segments of the population.

At the same time we can't wash the history prior to that away - but it should get an asterisk.

 

[DynstyUgrl]

The 50's and 60's are a good place to start because everyone was allowed to play. I have a hard time believing anyone could be champion of anything like a NC when it willfully excluded whole segments of the population.

At the same time we can't wash the history prior to that away - but it should get an asterisk.

Bobby Marshall, All-American 1903 - was a black player. First black player to play in the NFL. Oldest as well.

He played professional baseball, hockey, football and was a boxer as well.

But us Minnesotans have always been pretty progressive compared to everyone else.



Roy Wilkins, Exec Director of the NAACP and the founder of the LCCR was a UMn grad.

Whitney Young, Exec Director of the Natl Urban League was a UMn grad.

Sandy Stephens was the first black All-American at QB.

Tony Dungy was the first black Super Bowl winning head coach.

 

[OrangeDW]

The reason I don't like coming up with a starting point like 1950, is its too far back, honestly. I wasn't even born until 1967 and didn't start following cfb until the 70s. NOTHING that happened back then is relevant to what is going on now. Even going back more than 10 years, is very irrelevant. Even 5 years can be irrelevant, as not a single player on a team then is there now. So 2 years maybe, last year, sure, and definitely this year.

I'm a history buff, and the thing is, if you are going to go back any further than 5-10 years, you have to go all the way back, otherwise where do you start and how do you figure that out? There is no way of doing it in a way that is fair to all concerned unless you go all the way back to the beginning. My reasoning for thinking this is because I am a fan of the Coaching trees. Henry Williams was coach of the Minnesota Gophers until 1921. Several of his players went out into the cfb world as coaches, and one example, Bernie Bierman was one of his players, and guess who played for Bernie Bierman? Bud Wilkinson. And one of his asst coaches was Biggie Munn. And Biggie Munn and Ossie Solem, another Gopher, were on at least one coaching staff together, I believe, and they both went and coached at Syracuse. One of Biggie Munn's players went on to coach MSU to their titles in the 60's, and so on and so on. Cal Stoll played for Bernie Bierman I believe, and Tony Dungy and Marc Trestman were players for Cal Stoll I believe. Bud Grant played for Bernie Bierman as well. I could go on for days telling you about all of the interconnectedness of it all. Great coaches usually played for great coaches. And the mission of a university/college is to train young men and women to go out into the world and contribute to the world, or at least to be able to get a job out in the world. Well, coaching is a job, first of all, and its a way to contribute and to give back, to teach and lead others, to help influence a generation. And the superstars of the 70's that I grew up watching on tv, played their college ball back in the 50s and 60s, and the coaches sometimes traced back as far as the 40s, so I think the best way to honor them is to honor their teams and their coaches, who played and coached even further back. And so on and so forth.

So saying that starting at 1950 is a good starting point, only works for programs who did very little to help develop the sport of cfb, its robbing all of the schools who made significant contributions to what we call cfb today.

How about just base it on what you've seen or experienced in your lifetime as a fan? Do you care that Minnesota had more All Americans in the 1940's? Does that give you your jollies, and if so, why? Did you live and die with those dance team championships?

If you're being honest, Syracuse football and basketball have both been significantly better than Minnesota football and basketball in your lifetime as a fan.