Inside the Numbers - It's not even close

[DynstyUgrl]

Since we're bringing up the AP polls as a measuring stick...

One school has been ranked in FOOTBALL by the AP 197 times since 1936.

The other school has been ranked 159 times since 1936.

Guess which one is which?

Yeah, and only how many times at #1? And only how many times better than #4 or #8 or #10????

 

[DynstyUgrl]

www.basketballreference.com/players.bycollege.htm?sch=syracuse+university

Try that.

Didn't work for me. Just go to basketballreference dot com and you will see where to search for players, and then search by college.

 

[rrlbees]

Yes, I know this, and have congratulated you on how well your basketball program has done over the years, several times now. But apparently you do not have the ability to give any credit to others for their accomplishments. That's not a very good character trait. Makes you kind of a pathetic loser actually. As of 1985, Minnesota had made 124 appearances in the AP poll, peaking at #3. As of 1985, Syracuse had made 119 appearances in the AP poll, peaking at #2. So, if Minnesota sucked its entire history, then what does that say about Syracuse up until 1985??? I'm serious, denigrating Minnesota's past only makes SU's look worse. And it makes you look like an idiot and a sore winner. Only an idiot would say, see, we are better than they are, and they suck horribly. So what? So what if you are better than a team that has never done anything? But you should acknowledge what Minnesota accomplished in the past, because EVERYONE knows that Syracuse is much better than Minnesota, so why do you feel threatened to acknowledge what Minnesota has done when it wouldn't do anything to tarnish Syracuse's resume?! It doesn't make sense, it just makes you look bad.

Nobody gives a sheet about decades ago. Just stop.

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[ImperialOrange]

You don't have to be all that good to get into the NCAA tournament, if you are the best team in your conference.

#6, #7, #10, #11, #13 ranked teams that did NOT get an invite to the NCAA tourney, because another Big Ten team was ranked higher.

Apparently Syracuse didn't have to beat out highly ranked conference foes just to get an invite?

You need to realize youre talking about conference snubs that occured before Syracuse even had a conference affiliation. That would be the 79-80 season for basketball and 1991 for football. We were an independent up until those points.

I'm sure you're knowledge on Minnesota is correct but it seems your passing off information you've received elsewhere as fact as it pertains to Syracuse. A 20 minute cruise through the internet will tell you as much.

 

[rrlbees]

Yeah, and only how many times at #1? And only how many times better than #4 or #8 or #10????

Jesus, someone uses the same metric you want to use for bball and now you change the parameters. What are you 12? You argue like a kid.

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[DynstyUgrl]

Since we're bringing up the AP polls as a measuring stick...

One school has been ranked in FOOTBALL by the AP 197 times since 1936.

The other school has been ranked 159 times since 1936.

Guess which one is which?

And since 1980, 129 appearances for that first school, compared to 35 for that second one.

I'd rather have been ranked #1 at the end of the season 4 times, like Minnesota was, than to have been ranked #11 every year since 1936 to the present. Not that Syracuse has even come close to doing that, but the point is still made.

 

[jekelish]

Neither Minnesota football or basketball have done anything in decades. No conference championship in football since 1967, no conference championship in basketball since 1997, and that one had to be vacated.

But keep trying to tell yourself that you guys are so vastly superior.

 

[rrlbees]

I'd rather have been ranked #1 at the end of the season 4 times, like Minnesota was, than to have been ranked #11 every year since 1936 to the present. Not that Syracuse has even come close to doing that, but the point is still made.

And we'd all rather be SU's football and basketball program than some Goofers that are irrelevant to the rest of the country and has been for decades. Enjoy your mediocrity.

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[ImperialOrange]

Didn't work for me. Just go to basketballreference dot com and you will see where to search for players, and then search by college.

Google "syracuse players in the nba" and click a few links. Suffice to say, the one site you keep referencing doesn't seem to be accurate. Generally as a rule I fact check at least 3 sites against each other before accepting numbers as fact. Most cases you can quickly find outliers and throw them out.

As it pertains to hoops, I do this back and forth constantly with a buddy at work who is a Duke fan.

 

[ImperialOrange]

I'd rather have been ranked #1 at the end of the season 4 times, like Minnesota was, than to have been ranked #11 every year since 1936 to the present. Not that Syracuse has even come close to doing that, but the point is still made.

Ugh. This arguement is even flawed. The 4 seasons your claiming to end ranked #1 didn't even have rankings post bowl games which is currently accepted as the end of the season. Your 8-2 Rose bowl losing team was obviously not the #1 team in the country that year. I'm sure the 10-1 Rose bowl winning Washington team feels they were better than you and I'm sure pollsters wouldve agreed post bowl game. I understand why you claim it given the accepted practice of the day but you can't make the same arguement against our undefeated 1959 cotton bowl winning team.

 

[TheCusian]

We are sufficiently tutored in what a behemoth Minny was before the 50's. Much respect.

Now you can admit we've had better basketball since and slightly better football in the modern era.

 

[wfschrec]

www.basketballreference.com/players.bycollege.htm?sch=syracuse+university

Try that.

Maybe you should stop using some site a Minnesota fan runs out of his basement ... doing just a quick check I can already tell you its wrong ... they don't even have Wes Johnson a lottery pick and still in the NBA listed as an SU player ... seriously you guys are completely out of touch with reality.

 

[wfschrec]

Ugh. This arguement is even flawed. The 4 seasons your claiming to end ranked #1 didn't even have rankings post bowl games which is currently accepted as the end of the season. Your 8-2 Rose bowl losing team was obviously not the #1 team in the country that year. I'm sure the 10-1 Rose bowl winning Washington team feels they were better than you and I'm sure pollsters wouldve agreed post bowl game. I understand why you claim it given the accepted practice of the day but you can't make the same arguement against our undefeated 1959 cotton bowl winning team.

I already brought that to their attention about their rose bowl defeat and was ignored ... they had to cherry pick and move on to the basketball coaching argument and of course they didn't address my points about that either ... its like talking to a wall.

 

[Marsh01]

Is that so? Is that what the evidence suggests?! UMn's only lost to NDSU twice in its entire history. And NDSU is at least arguably the best fb program in Div 1AA.

Syracuse has lost 101 games to Div 1AA teams. UMn's only lost 4.

And UMn's never lost to a Div 2 team. Syracuse has!

UMn's only lost 9 games to Div 3 teams, and 5 of those losses were to Chicago and happened before 1914, when Chicago was one of the better football teams in the nation.

Syracuse has lost 28 games to Div 3 teams.

Totally, that's 13 losses to non Div 1A teams for Minnesota, and 130 for Syracuse.

13 vs 130. That's TEN TIMES as many!!!


All of those numbers can be checked at cfbdatawarehouse dot com and are based on teams current conf and div affiliations.


And as for basketball, its true Syracuse has done much better than Minnesota in that one sport, and for that Orange fans should be proud, but despite all that success Syracuse has had at the Big Dance, its amusing to me that Minnesota has still put more players into the NBA than Syracuse has, 45 to 33. At least according to databasebasketball dot com.

I think it would be fun to have a sort of paper match up, like the NBA All-Star game, but with every one of the 13 players on each side being from either Minnesota or Syracuse. My guess is Minnesota's All-Star team would whoop up on Syracuse's. Maybe? Maybe not?! lol It would be fun either way.


Minnesota has also put twice as many cfb "players" into the cfb Hall of Fame as well, 18 to 9. That information can be verified at the NFF website.

I'm not including coaches in those numbers, just because coaches are paid, hired to come to a school, unlike players who choose where they want to go to play.

Half of the coaches in the cfb HOF who coached at Syracuse only coached there for 1 or 2 years anyway. Much more impressive is the fact that 5 former Gopher players went on to make it into the cfb Hall of Fame as coaches. I'll put those 5 along with Henry Williams up against Syracuse's best 6 coaches, whether hired or an alum, anytime of the day. Bud Wilkinson, voted Natl Coach of the Century, 47 game winning streak, 3 Natl Titles. Bernie Bierman, 5 Natl Titles, voted Big Ten Coach of the Century, arguably a better coach than Wilkinson, needed a world war to bring down his dynasty. Gil Dobie, longest unbeaten streak in NCAA cfb history, 63 games, 2 Natl Titles while at Cornell, never lost a single game in 8 or 9 seasons at Washington. Clark Shaughnessy was nominated 3 separate times for the NFL HOF as a coach after only coaching 3 seasons in the NFL because of the incredible influence he had on the way NFL fb was played. Won a Natl Title at Stanford. Biggie Munn made Michigan St into a Natl power and won 2 Natl Titles. And finally Henry Williams, a revolutionary coach, his Minnesota shift was utilized throughout cfb. He invented the modern backfield in the original Brown Jug game of 1903. But if I needed to go with only alum, I am sure I could find one more with a stellar record who didn't coach long enough to garner HOF status, but would still easily match any 6th coach Syracuse could muster up.




Minnesota has also had more All-Americans in cfb as well, despite what a few posters here have stated.

Syracuse fans here seem to credit UMn only with the # of Consensus AA's it supposedly has according to, my guess is, info from Wikipedia, lol. So its not their fault necessarily for misunderstanding this. While they list any and every player of theirs who've ever gotten an AA nod and then claim how they've had more. Stupid Wikipedia. lol

Looking at the # of Walter Camp 1st Team AAs shows UMn has 40 to Syracuse's 20 or 21.

I believe the # of consensus AAs mirrors those WC #s, 40 to 21. Almost double what Syracuse has.

Then the # of unanimous is 7 for Syracuse and around a dozen for UMn.

And looking at comprehensive lists at each school's own websites, it shows that Syracuse has only 42 individual AAs with a total of 53 AA nods, while Minnesota has 55 individual players with 69 total AA nods. Not sure if Syracuse is including any 2nd or 3rd teamers or not, I just know those 55/69 for UMn are strictly 1st teamers.

So the Syracuse fans who have been touting more All-Americans than Minnesota were simply misled by a misleading Wikipedia article.

As for the vaunted 7 Pro Hall of Famers vs only 6 for UMn?

That advantage will only last a short time as Tony Dungy breaches the 5 year mark sometime in the next 2 months. And he's a guaranteed shoo-in 1st ballet HOFer.

And my guess is that if we compared the # of players who've made NFL All-Decade Teams, Gophers would outnumber Oranges by at least 1, maybe more? We've had over 10.

And former Gopher fb players account for approx. 10% of the leading scorers in NFL history(10 since 1934) and 10% of the coaches of recognized Natl Championship teams(14) from 1920 to the present and both the longest unbeaten streak in Div 1A cfb history, and the longest winning streak in Div 1A cfb history.


So, TWICE as many Walter Camp 1st team AAs,
and TWICE as many cfb Hall of Fame "players",
and TWICE as many Top 4 AP poll finishes,
and almost twice as many Top 8 AP poll finishes(would be double if the 1934 AP poll that had UMn #1 was counted),
and has won THREE straight against the Orange,
and SIX TIMES AS MANY recognized Natl Titles!


Bring up # of bowl games all you want, the Orange should be proud of how well they've done in bowl games, but remember that the Big Ten didn't even allow Big Ten teams to compete in bowl games until after WWII, and then they only allowed the Conf Champ to play in one until the late 70s. It's kind of an unfair argument, although the Orange's bowl record IS something to be proud of, I just don't think it can be used to show superiority over the Gophers when other variables can be measured more fairly, like Natl Titles, AAs, HOFers, head to head, etc..


So now that I've posted a rebuttal containing factual information, I suppose I'll be banned soon, eh?! Naw, I've been nice, haven't I? I'm an Orange fan, sort of. Won't be on Dec 27th, but otherwise I like Syracuse, wish the B1G had taken you guys instead of Rutgers, but oh well. This was a long winded and probably boring post, but I tried not to pull a Ski-U-Mah and say anything about cheerleading, lol, and for the long windedness I apologize, and it took me too long to write anyways, so I promise it will be my last novella. I just don't want to get banned because I think it would be fun to do that NBA All-Star paper matchup thingy. Then after that whoopin you can ban me, eh? You betcha can!!!

All time wins - basketball

Syracuse 1874
Minnesota 1502

All time wins -football

Syracuse 701
Minnesota 652

All time bowl wins

Syracuse 13
Minnesota 5

5?????

 

[bnoro]

All time wins - basketball

Syracuse 1874
Minnesota 1502

All time wins -football

Syracuse 701
Minnesota 652

BUT WHAT ARE THE NUMBERS BEFORE 1985 MARSH?????

 

[Marsh01]

BUT WHAT ARE THE NUMBERS BEFORE 1985 MARSH?????

Good lord I appreciate the kids passion but man let it go right?

 

[RandygoCuse]

They invented cheerleading? Great, we're doomed. Why even bother showing up?

 

[TheCusian]

They invented cheerleading? Great, we're doomed. Why even bother showing up?

They also almost hired Coach Wooden. Very important point.

 

[RandygoCuse]

They also almost hired Coach Wooden. Very important point.

If only there were some expression about almost...

 

[ImperialOrange]

You rube's are crazy. I now wish SU were playing a helmet school instead though.

 

[retro44]

I would have never guessed that the minny clown would have gotten this much attention. It truly must be the dead period.

 

[tep624]

I'm beginning to think that everyone in Minnesota wears a helmet, and not just those that play football or ride motorcycles.

 

[SBro44]

Patently false??? I got my info from basketballreference dot com.


And I'm not talking about the # of "drafted" players, but the # of players who actually played in the NBA.

It literally took me 5 seconds to think of four guys now on the list that have "PLAYED" in NBA games

Andy Rautin
Kris Joseph
Wesley Johnson
Fab Melo

these are all recent-- what a terrible reference site, it's not like it forgot a guy from the 1930's

And don't get me wrong their time in the league was short lived but i'm guessing so was 90% of the minny list.

Did you watch the olympics-- Carmelo is a Syracuse man, and he has been a top 10 (maybe top 5 player) the last 8 years

DC-- also a Syarcuse olympian

 

[SBro44]

not on the list*

 

[SBro44]

Minny's only decent player in the last 15 years is only known to anybody out of the state of Minn for being dumped by a Kardasian (i'm sorry but it's true)

I actually met Humphries at a Hoboken bar