Interesting NCAA Column in NYT

[triplethrea]

It is institutionalized racism when the athletes punished by the NCAA in two most important sports are almost exclusively black, especially in the highest profile cases.

Though, an argument can be made that it's more of a socio-economic problem than a race problem.

I don't believe it's purposefully racist, but it's certainly conveniently racist.

The two sports which bring in the most bucks are made up of a high percentage of African Americans. The money from these two sports do not go in the pockets of the athletes (which we watch the sport for), but to the pockets of the coaches, administrators, and facilities. The remaining money is spent to keep less performing sports afloat. Many of these are traditionally "white" or country club sports such as golf.

It's ironic. Is there some racism involved? Maybe, but I don't believe that's the core. I think the core is "let's make money off these young kids, make them work for free, and tell them we know what's best for them, which is an education".

 

[triplethrea]

I'm not advocating for the status quo. Why does the choice have to be (a) the way things are, or (b) pay the players? Why can't there be other options, such as minor leagues for those pro sports? That's what I'm recommending.

There can be minor leagues. Sure.

But where is the money going to go. Follow the money. Who the hell wants to watch minor leagues when millions of people (including us) have been rooting, spending on, and supporting college teams for years and years. Now we're supposed to watch lesser players play in college and all the good players go to minor league teams we have no allegiance to? I'm not going to buy some Rochester Rebounds jersey. I'm buying a Syracuse jersey.

College sports is an established business model. And quite a successful one. If schools want to keep the profits they're getting, I believe they need to give some of them to the athletes. I guarantee you colleges will agree to pay players before losing all of them to some other league. It's the reason the "one and done" rule was even implemented.

 

[rrlbees]

That article is goofy. I have no problem with giving athletes some mad money. Whether that be $2K or $5K I don't care. But nobody says these kids have to go to college. Let them get on with their life without a college education or with no shot at a professional sports career. Most athletes don't make it professionally. So if they are smart, they will take advantage of that $80K - $200K education being given to them to open other far greater doors for them than if they went into the workforce with just a HS degree. Nothing also says that just because a school makes $1M they should share x% with the athletes. I 100% believe that a free education is equal to getting paid. Tell the kid who isn't good enough to get an athletic scholarship and can't afford college that he/she is getting equal educational opportunity as the athlete getting the free ride. There are many reasons why I hate the NCAA, but this isn't one of them.

 

[All4SU]

There can be minor leagues. Sure.

But where is the money going to go. Follow the money. Who the hell wants to watch minor leagues when millions of people (including us) have been rooting, spending on, and supporting college teams for years and years. Now we're supposed to watch lesser players play in college and all the good players go to minor league teams we have no allegiance to? I'm not going to buy some Rochester Rebounds jersey. I'm buying a Syracuse jersey.

College sports is an established business model. And quite a successful one. If schools want to keep the profits they're getting, I believe they need to give some of them to the athletes. I guarantee you colleges will agree to pay players before losing all of them to some other league. It's the reason the "one and done" rule was even implemented.

I would rather watch Syracuse University play a high level of amateur athletics with student athletes than watch professional sports. I don't consider that watching "lesser players" any more than I consider watching SU basketball now as being an inferior experience to watching the NBA. I have no interest in the NBA.

College sports IS an established business model. But this very thread indicates that it has problems. To fix this problem, you want to change the business model by making college sports into professional sports. I suggest the more appropriate "fix" is to go the opposite direction. Do what we can to keep amateur athletics amateur. Keep colleges in the business of education, and if athletics are a means for some kids to make their way to "free" education, that's great. If you make it professional, you will take the education out of college athletics -- more so than it is now. Now tell me which end result would do more harm to the long-term racially-oriented challenges we face in our society today -- the one that values education, or the one that is based on immediate gratification for a few bucks?

There is a great scene in the movie "Oh God" with George Burns. He is asked if there is anything he created that he regrets creating. His answer: Pockets. "With pockets, people automatically want something to put in them." That sums up the problem with making college students professional athletes, in my opinion. The pockets will never be big enough.

 

[triplethrea]

That article is goofy. I have no problem with giving athletes some mad money. Whether that be $2K or $5K I don't care. But nobody says these kids have to go to college. Let them get on with their life without a college education or with no shot at a professional sports career. Most athletes don't make it professionally. So if they are smart, they will take advantage of that $80K - $200K education being given to them to open other far greater doors for them than if they went into the workforce with just a HS degree. Nothing also says that just because a school makes $1M they should share x% with the athletes. I 100% believe that a free education is equal to getting paid. Tell the kid who isn't good enough to get an athletic scholarship and can't afford college that he/she is getting equal educational opportunity as the athlete getting the free ride. There are many reasons why I hate the NCAA, but this isn't one of them.

The NCAA is a cartel simply because if you don't go to college, you can not play in the NFL or NBA (unless you take a massive risk and play in Europe). The players have no choice. "Too bad, that's the way it is" does not sound like the talk of a person who believes in a fair market.

Let me put it to you this way. In a free market the athletes will get paid what the market says they are worth. Right now there is a cap on the market which is: A scholarship. Each team has a limit on how many scholarships they can give out. Each team also uses every scholarship they have available on an athlete (which they are not required to), which tells us that at the very least the market value of even a benchwarmer is a scholarship.

If an education is truly enough, and worth the player's market value, then let's have a free market and see if this is true. Right? If an education is good enough then the market will naturally set upon a scholarship as the cap. That's fantasy land. We both know that if a free market is allowed teams will start throwing cash around to get each player to stay with them. This tells us that players are worth A LOT more than one measly scholarship to these schools, otherwise they would not be looking to skirt the rules with boosters, etc.

I think the "be happy with your education and shut up" argument is incredibly condescending especially when coaches and NCAA officials are swimming in money. Scholarships are not magical unicorns with wings, they are merely the value of tuition. Were basically giving these players $20,000 a year. Then punishing schools that give them a penny more. Please stop glorifying scholarships, especially in an era in our country where a college education is worth less and less.

These players are worth a lot of money to their schools. Much more than a measly scholarship and everybody is profiting off their blood, sweat, and tears except the athletes. It is true that most of them will not make the pros. In fact, this will be the only point in their life with which they can make money off their sport (much more than many careers they can ever get with their "glorious and invincible scholarship") . And they are not allowed to. Why?

 

[triplethrea]

I would rather watch Syracuse University play a high level of amateur athletics with student athletes than watch professional sports. I don't consider that watching "lesser players" any more than I consider watching SU basketball now as being an inferior experience to watching the NBA. I have no interest in the NBA.

College sports IS an established business model. But this very thread indicates that it has problems. To fix this problem, you want to change the business model by making college sports into professional sports. I suggest the more appropriate "fix" is to go the opposite direction. Do what we can to keep amateur athletics amateur. Keep colleges in the business of education, and if athletics are a means for some kids to make their way to "free" education, that's great. If you make it professional, you will take the education out of college athletics -- more so than it is now. Now tell me which end result would do more harm to the long-term racially-oriented challenges we face in our society today -- the one that values education, or the one that is based on immediate gratification for a few bucks?

There is a great scene in the movie "Oh God" with George Burns. He is asked if there is anything he created that he regrets creating. His answer: Pockets. "With pockets, people automatically want something to put in them." That sums up the problem with making college students professional athletes, in my opinion. The pockets will never be big enough.

It's too late. Money is in charge of college athletics, not education. You are fooling yourself if you think any differently. The train has already started moving. Eliminating the NCAA is on the path.

Turning the train around is not going to happen.

 

[All4SU]

The NCAA is a cartel simply because if you don't go to college, you can not play in the NFL or NBA (unless you take a massive risk and play in Europe). The players have no choice. "Too bad, that's the way it is" does not sound like the talk of a person who believes in a fair market.

Let me put it to you this way. In a free market the athletes will get paid what the market says they are worth. Right now there is a cap on the market which is: A scholarship. Each team has a limit on how many scholarships they can give out. Each team also uses every scholarship they have available on an athlete (which they are not required to), which tells us that at the very least the market value of even a benchwarmer is a scholarship.

If an education is truly enough, and worth the player's market value, then let's have a free market and see if this is true. Right? If an education is good enough then the market will naturally set upon a scholarship as the cap. That's fantasy land. We both know that if a free market is allowed teams will start throwing cash around to get each player to stay with them. This tells us that players are worth A LOT more than one measly scholarship to these schools, otherwise they would not be looking to skirt the rules with boosters, etc.

I think the "be happy with your education and shut up" argument is incredibly condescending especially when coaches and NCAA officials are swimming in money. Scholarships are not magical unicorns with wings, they are merely the value of tuition. Were basically giving these players $20,000 a year. Then punishing schools that give them a penny more. Please stop glorifying scholarships, especially in an era in our country where a college scholarship is worth less and less.

These players are worth a lot of money to their schools. Much more than a measly scholarship and everybody is profiting off their blood, sweat, and tears except the athletes. It is true that most of them will not make the pros. In fact, this will be the only point in their life with which they can make money off their sport (much more than many careers they can ever get with their "glorious and invincible scholarship" . And they are not allowed to. Why?

To me, the big point that you seem to be missing in this debate is that 99.9% of these athletes you talk about are not good enough to play professionally. Even most of those who are, are not typically physically mature enough to play at 18 - 19 - 20 years old. Guys like Lebron are the very rare exception. Those other guys will NEVER play professionally, anywhere. They NEED an education.

 

[All4SU]

It's too late. Money is in charge of college athletics, not education. You are fooling yourself if you think any differently. The train has already started moving. Eliminating the NCAA is on the path.

Turning the train around is not going to happen.

And I think you don't want to fix the problem. You want to create a new one.

 

[triplethrea]

To me, the big point that you seem to be missing in this debate is that 99.9% of these athletes you talk about are not good enough to play professionally. Even most of those who are, are not typically physically mature enough to play at 18 - 19 - 20 years old. Guys like Lebron are the very rare exception. Those other guys will NEVER play professionally, anywhere. They NEED an education.

You missed my last paragraph where I stated that their college years are their most potentially profitable period of their lives. During these years they may be on ESPN, have their likeness in video games, be on posters, sell jerseys, sign autographs, etc. Once they graduate there is a very good chance they will not make the NBA, which I think gives even more weight to the fact they deserved to be paid NOW rather than later.

How much money did Adam Morrison and JJ Reddick make Gonzaga and Duke that one year? How much did they make? Now Morrison is a benchwarmer and Reddick is nowhere near the star he was in college.

How much money has GMAC made? How much did GMAC make us? I think GMAC go screwed.

 

[triplethrea]

And I think you don't want to fix the problem. You want to create a new one.

I think you are just afraid of change. Every new problem that will come up will be eventually fixed and improved upon. Much better than continuing on committing a wrong.

Your solution may be nice in theory, but it is just not realistic.

 

[rrlbees]

The NCAA is a cartel simply because if you don't go to college, you can not play in the NFL or NBA (unless you take a massive risk and play in Europe). The players have no choice. "Too bad, that's the way it is" does not sound like the talk of a person who believes in a fair market.

Let me put it to you this way. In a free market the athletes will get paid what the market says they are worth. Right now there is a cap on the market which is: A scholarship. Each team has a limit on how many scholarships they can give out. Each team also uses every scholarship they have available on an athlete (which they are not required to), which tells us that at the very least the market value of even a benchwarmer is a scholarship.

If an education is truly enough, and worth the player's market value, then let's have a free market and see if this is true. Right? If an education is good enough then the market will naturally set upon a scholarship as the cap. That's fantasy land. We both know that if a free market is allowed teams will start throwing cash around to get each player to stay with them. This tells us that players are worth A LOT more than one measly scholarship to these schools, otherwise they would not be looking to skirt the rules with boosters, etc.

I think the "be happy with your education and shut up" argument is incredibly condescending especially when coaches and NCAA officials are swimming in money. Scholarships are not magical unicorns with wings, they are merely the value of tuition. Were basically giving these players $20,000 a year. Then punishing schools that give them a penny more. Please stop glorifying scholarships, especially in an era in our country where a college education is worth less and less.

These players are worth a lot of money to their schools. Much more than a measly scholarship and everybody is profiting off their blood, sweat, and tears except the athletes. It is true that most of them will not make the pros. In fact, this will be the only point in their life with which they can make money off their sport (much more than many careers they can ever get with their "glorious and invincible scholarship") . And they are not allowed to. Why?

You don't have to go to college to play pro sports. It is their choice to go to college. The free market is the pro's, not college. A free market in college sports would set up more illegalities than the NCAA has ever seen.

Also, most scholarships are a lot more than $20K (SU is about $50K) and that is not all they are getting. They are also getting the opportunity to be set up to make a LOT more in the future than they would with just a HS education whether that be as a professional athlete or a career they chose. Go look at the studies that show how much the average HS grad makes in a lifetime compared to someone with a 4 year college degree. Then tell me all they are getting is $20K. If a college athlete doesn't take advantage of their free education, that is their choice.

 

[All4SU]

So if I understand your argument, you advocating having players negotiate their own contracts -- e.g. Fab Melo gets $X...Triche gets 1/2 $X...Southerland gets 1/8 $X, etc. Players negotiate (presumably with agents) ...negotiations mean sitting out when negotiations fail. Players will be unhappy because they aren't getting what other players get on their same teams. Coaches will have less influence (for lack of a better word) over player performance, because these players answer to their contracts, not their coaches. Free agency comes next. Guys will play for SU on season, then for Georgetown the next. You can't deprive a player the opportunity to earn a living someplace else if that's what he wants. Players unions. Even higher ticket prices, to accommodate increases in player salaries.

This is the model you want?

 

[All4SU]

I think you are just afraid of change. Every new problem that will come up will be eventually fixed and improved upon. Much better than continuing on committing a wrong.

Your solution may be nice in theory, but it is just not realistic.

Not afraid of change one bit. I just think that what you advocate is the "quick fix" easy solution, which is not well thought out. Changing things correctly is not so simple and demands an open mind.

 

[triplethrea]

You don't have to go to college to play pro sports. It is their choice to go to college. The free market is the pro's, not college. A free market in college sports would set up more illegalities than the NCAA has ever seen.

Also, most scholarships are a lot more than $20K (SU is about $50K) and that is not all they are getting. They are also getting the opportunity to be set up to make a LOT more in the future than they would with just a HS education whether that be as a professional athlete or a career they chose. Go look at the studies that show how much the average HS grad makes in a lifetime compared to someone with a 4 year college degree. Then tell me all they are getting is $20K. If a college athlete doesn't take advantage of their free education, that is their choice.

OK so let them get an education. Nobody is debating that. But why not allow universities to pay them an education + money if the universities feel they want to? Why are they not only not allowed to do so, but are frowned upon for it? If it is so painful for these universities to give out scholarships then they won't attempt to give the players anything else.

You HAVE to go to college to play in the NFL. You cannot argue this. If you want to make the NBA and stay in your country of birth, you HAVE to go to college. That is what is called a cartel. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if you are so I'll let the courts handle all these "illegalities" you speak of.

We're basically telling these kids that if they want to play somewhere they have to go somewhere and not earn a dime from it for anywhere from 1-4 years. Also, let's be real. Many of these kids with professional sport aspirations come from places where there is either pro sports or a life of crime. There is no other choice.

You seem to be telling me how nice and cozy a scholarship is. We all know. But that does not mean players should be forbidden from receiving anything else.

 

[triplethrea]

So if I understand your argument, you advocating having players negotiate their own contracts -- e.g. Fab Melo gets $X...Triche gets 1/2 $X...Southerland gets 1/8 $X, etc. Players negotiate (presumably with agents) ...negotiations mean sitting out when negotiations fail. Players will be unhappy because they aren't getting what other players get on their same teams. Coaches will have less influence (for lack of a better word) over player performance, because these players answer to their contracts, not their coaches. Free agency comes next. Guys will play for SU on season, then for Georgetown the next. You can't deprive a player the opportunity to earn a living someplace else if that's what he wants. Players unions. Even higher ticket prices, to accommodate increases in player salaries.

This is the model you want?

There will be rules to make everything run smoothly. That's not what I am debating.

I am debating that the current system is broken, and paying is the only reasonable way.

 

[All4SU]

You don't have to go to college to play pro sports. It is their choice to go to college. The free market is the pro's, not college. A free market in college sports would set up more illegalities than the NCAA has ever seen.

Also, most scholarships are a lot more than $20K (SU is about $50K) and that is not all they are getting. They are also getting the opportunity to be set up to make a LOT more in the future than they would with just a HS education whether that be as a professional athlete or a career they chose. Go look at the studies that show how much the average HS grad makes in a lifetime compared to someone with a 4 year college degree. Then tell me all they are getting is $20K. If a college athlete doesn't take advantage of their free education, that is their choice.

Yeah, that's why I think so many folks who advocate paying the players are missing the point. If you really want to do justice for the players, make it easier for them to actually BE a student athlete. Limit the number of games, help athletes focus on studies, instead of spending all of their time in the gyms. Do more to encourage the student aspect of student athletes. And help those who have no interest in being students to have a better option that going to college. (minor leagues)

Money is rarely the solution to anything.

 

[All4SU]

There will be rules to make everything run smoothly.

Ah...there will be rules! Of course. And there will have to be some official body to oversee these rules.

Hey, we disagree. There is little middle ground here. That's fine.

A final thought though. Most people seem to agree that the trend in college sports has been in emphasizing the profit generating sports -- football and basketball. Most people also agree that this has come at the expense of other sports, such as wrestling, gymnastics, swimming, track and field, etc. The end result is that there have been far fewer opportunities for college scholarships for athletes who compete in those sports. That's very discouraging for people who enjoy sports other than football and basketball. And while many of these sports don't generate the revenue that those other sports do, it is increasingly difficult for athletes (particularly men) to earn scholarships in those sports in order to get an education. Isn't there a degree of unfairness in that too?​

 

[All4SU]

I'm buying a Syracuse jersey.

Wait...are you buying a "Syracuse" jersey? Or a "Waiters" jersey?

 

[rrlbees]

OK so let them get an education. Nobody is debating that. But why not allow universities to pay them an education + money if the universities feel they want to? Why are they not only not allowed to do so, but are frowned upon for it? If it is so painful for these universities to give out scholarships then they won't attempt to give the players anything else.

You HAVE to go to college to play in the NFL. You cannot argue this. If you want to make the NBA and stay in your country of birth, you HAVE to go to college. That is what is called a cartel. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if you are so I'll let the courts handle all these "illegalities" you speak of.

We're basically telling these kids that if they want to play somewhere they have to go somewhere and not earn a dime from it for anywhere from 1-4 years. Also, let's be real. Many of these kids with professional sport aspirations come from places where there is either pro sports or a life of crime. There is no other choice.

You seem to be telling me how nice and cozy a scholarship is. We all know. But that does not mean players should be forbidden from receiving anything else.

I'm just not getting your point at all. You do NOT have to go to college to play in the NBA or NFL. Any age restrictions the NBA or NFL put in is their rule, not the NCAA's. You seem to want pay for play vs giving college athletes a stipend. Fine, you like the baseball model. So go talk to the NBA and NFL about setting up a minor league where more kids would get paid to play for pay sooner. It's not the NCAA that would set up a professional minor league system for those 2 sports.

BTW, I just checked and the difference in lifetime earnings between a kid with a HS degree and a 4 year college degree is about $1M. So you can add that to your value of a college education. And yes, I know some athletes would go to college even without the scholarship, but many wouldn't or couldn't.

 

[triplethrea]

I'm just not getting your point at all. You do NOT have to go to college to play in the NBA or NFL. Any age restrictions the NBA or NFL put in is their rule, not the NCAA's. You seem to want pay for play vs giving college athletes a stipend. Fine, you like the baseball model. So go talk to the NBA and NFL about setting up a minor league where more kids would get paid to play for pay sooner. It's not the NCAA that would set up a professional minor league system for those 2 sports.

BTW, I just checked and the difference in lifetime earnings between a kid with a HS degree and a 4 year college degree is about $1M. So you can add that to your value of a college education. And yes, I know some athletes would go to college even without the scholarship, but many wouldn't or couldn't.

You're clearly not getting my point. No, you don't technically have to go to college to play in the pros, but you HAVE TO go to college to play in the pros. You feel me? I don't like semantics, they're boring. I like to cut the BS.

Go and talk to the NBA or NFL about the minor league system. See if they budge. They work together with the NCAA. That's why there is the cartel cry. There is just no other realistic and responsible choice. Why do players have to sacrifice their earnings because "that's just the way it is". Why is everybody getting paid except the players? That's the issue at play here. Everybody is getting paid except the ones that deserve it the most.

A college education is absolutely no guarantee that one has a successful post-grad career. In case you haven't heard a lot of college grads have been participating in something called the Occupy movement.

And I already replied to your last point. I want the athletes to get the scholarship + whatever else the university offers. If that's just a stipend then that is fine. I'm not debating that we should have free agency and all that jazz, I did not want it to seem that is what I wanted. But I do believe players should be able to profit as much from their 15 minutes of fame as an other person should

 

[triplethrea]

Ah...there will be rules! Of course. And there will have to be some official body to oversee these rules.

Hey, we disagree. There is little middle ground here. That's fine.

A final thought though. Most people seem to agree that the trend in college sports has been in emphasizing the profit generating sports -- football and basketball. Most people also agree that this has come at the expense of other sports, such as wrestling, gymnastics, swimming, track and field, etc. The end result is that there have been far fewer opportunities for college scholarships for athletes who compete in those sports. That's very discouraging for people who enjoy sports other than football and basketball. And while many of these sports don't generate the revenue that those other sports do, it is increasingly difficult for athletes (particularly men) to earn scholarships in those sports in order to get an education. Isn't there a degree of unfairness in that too?​

Why is it so difficult to believe there will be rules? Again, afraid of change. You're afraid of the boogie man. I'm sorry but worrying about how players will get paid is the least of my worries. I want these guys to get what they are worth, everything else will fall into place with rules and regulations.

I already talked about the 2nd point. Just because lacrosse players want an education does not mean you should take all the money from basketball and football players. If I make 10 million dollars from my business, is it my responsibility to give all my profit so you can go to school?

 

[rrlbees]

You're clearly not getting my point. No, you don't technically have to go to college to play in the pros, but you HAVE TO go to college to play in the pros. You feel me? I don't like semantics, they're boring. I like to cut the BS.

You have to go to college to become a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, etc. No I don't get your point. You weren't asking for athletes to get some small stipend at first, you think they should get some free market huge amount of money.

 

[rrlbees]

I want these guys to get what they are worth

They have every opportunity to get paid what they are worth today. It's called playing professionally. The NCAA nor any college is keeping an athlete from getting paid what they are worth today.

 

[Cadillac]

Four-year contracts and a salary cap would be fascinating.

If a player goes pro early, do you get that cap space back? Would a local player like DC give you a hometown discount? If you break the bank on a big recruit, you'd almost have to take a chance on an Andy or Arinze every class.

On the football side, people would stump to spend half the cap for a contract for Jarron Jones, or a five-star QB. Then you'd have to sign all of Mac's grandkids to fill out the class.

Title XI shoots the whole balloon down though.

 

[triplethrea]

You have to go to college to become a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, etc. No I don't get your point. You weren't asking for athletes to get some small stipend at first, you think they should get some free market huge amount of money.

When you go to law or medical school you are allowed to profit from your work in some way. If someone wants some consulting, you are more than welcome to ask for whatever sum you want. NCAA players pretty much give away all their right from that. It's two totally different things.

I never said small stipend. I meant free market in the sense that they get what universities are willing to pay for them. If the highest bidder offers a $2000 stipend then fine. If a school offers a $1 million stipend then that is fine too. I never proposed salary caps and all that jazz, I'm frankly not as interested in that.