Is Duke that good or was it the game of their season

[Forza Azzurri]

We all know the adjustment needed when a team effectively rips apart the zone from top or mid-key position and scoring from there or dishing to the baseline for open layups if the slides double you...

It's a style of defense that all other teams play but that's not in our wheelhouse.

Hence, the "classic" syracuse loss where the zone is the problem and being exploited effectively. Plan b is, oh well, no-count will have the game of his life then.

We prolly would have lost to Duke either way - they are just the better team.

Clemson was the zone-getting-exploited forcing foul trouble, no-plan-b loss that we always see a few of every season tho. It might be a little exacerbated this year as Sidibe is a fouling machine on a good night and Marek has to foul more often since he's undersized for center and has to foul more than he'd like, I'm sure

It is what it is. We've seen it plenty of times before and we'll see it again.

ok...so we switch to MTM vs Clemson...who guards Mack and who guards Simms?

 

[JoeySimz]

The zone and press gave us a huge advantage in turnovers. Another thread derailer with a thoroughly debunked generalization.

 

[realorange]

They are definitely a top ten team.
They will be even better by tournament time. Stanley alone will have time to put his great athleticism up another gear. Carey continuing to get better is scary.

 

[Cusefan0307]

They are definitely a top ten team.
They will be even better by tournament time. Stanley alone will have time to put his great athleticism up another gear. Carey continuing to get better is scary.

We’ve heard this a bunch the past few years and then they usually end up losing to a more veteran team.

 

[Mareiniss]

The press was pretty effective. More please.

It’s effective and then It’s not once they adjusted .. we should have called it off down 5

I don't think we have the bench to do it effectively for more than a few minutes at a time. But if the other team can't deal with it very well, it might be a good idea to mix it in with the zone from time to keep them off balance.

 

[Willy75]

ok...so we switch to MTM vs Clemson...who guards Mack and who guards Simms?

Mack had 2 pts vs Wake last night.

 

[kingtidge]

ok...so we switch to MTM vs Clemson...who guards Mack and who guards Simms?

No one.

We'll play MTM in the future under whoever takes over in the next regime.

In the meantime, expect more games where a mediocre player puts up career highs against us.

We've seen it before a plenty... We'll see it again. When all you play is zone, it happens on occasion.

It is what it is.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Our 3 guards didn’t play well and the refs gave them every call. They also had a edge with regards to size and athleticism that should be expected. I hope to play them again and feel good about a rematch but I’m glad we aren’t going to Durham this year.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Eli needs to come back and perform in a game like that he won’t make the NBA until he takes that next step.

We get guys drafted higher than they should be over the years but you have to be part of a great Syracuse team for it to happen.

 

[NorSyr66]

Lets face it, they lose better recruits than we get in most cases. Coach K gets just about the cream of the crop every year, most are one and dones. You need to give JB a lot of credit for taking a bunch or rag tags and making a game out of it. Duke had over all better athletes, with much more skills and a deep bench. Late in the game it seemed like they had 7 or 8 players with 2 or 3 fouls and a couple with 4. What did we have, only 7 deep and two of our 2 big men fouling out. It should be an entire different game next year when we are all a year more experienced and possibly pick up one or two key players while Coach K reloads. Bottom line I did not like the result of last night's game but inlight of our poor shooting night, we did one hell of a job. LGO

 

[NorSyr66]

Our 3 guards didn’t play well and the refs gave them every call. They also had a edge with regards to size and athleticism that should be expected. I hope to play them again and feel good about a rematch but I’m glad we aren’t going to Durham this year.

I would agree with you but we seem to do better against Duke at Cameron.

 

[JoeySimz]

Mack had 2 pts vs Wake last night.

Iirc, he and Sims had about 20 apiece when they beat unc and Duke back to back.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

No one.

We'll play MTM in the future under whoever takes over in the next regime.

In the meantime, expect more games where a mediocre player puts up career highs against us.

We've seen it before a plenty... We'll see it again. When all you play is zone, it happens on occasion.

It is what it is.

That is not an answer.

You say we win the Clemson game if we switch to MTM. Tell us how.

 

[sugrad68]

i feel like they either scored, got fouled or turned it over every possession the last 25-30 minutes. very few times did they miss a shot and we got the rebound. literally could not stop them.

This was the same scenario in the first ND game and the Clemson game. I kept saying to myself "Just stop them one time". Didn't happen in the last 5 minutes of the game. I think fatigue might be a major factor for Syracuse late in games. Can't move as quickly or jump as high or concentrate on blocking out. The team just is not a decent defensive team. We'll have to live with that.

 

[Ghost]

I think we have to just tip our hats to Duke and move on. They had all sorts of starters playing limited minutes, and had to play O'Connell, Goldwire, etc...they overcame a lot of adversity.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Our D is so bad that when a team makes that many FT's above their average, it's going to be nearly impossible for us to win without shooting lights out. Throw in the talent discrepancy, especially on the interior, and it's a minor miracle it was close. Duke played well and truly exposed our weaknesses. We also didn't shoot all that well inside the 3pt line, making it an even tougher task. But we competed, as usual, and did about as well as we could (minus the 3pt shooting). Hopefully, we can play similarly against Lville and FSU and potentially steal one of those.

Watching this D just consistently get torched gives us a similar margin for error as we've had in recent years, only in reverse. We've had a smaller margin for error because of slowing the game down and lacking offensive firepower. Had to be efficient to win, for the most part. Now, we have to shooting/score well because we aren't going to play D or rebound all that well. This is why we're in this constant rut of pure mediocrity, but at least it's a little more aesthetically pleasing this year. Until we find a way to get a defensive Center that can impact the game and not get tossed around with some size/athleticism up top at Guard, we're going to struggle on D and have to rely on shooting well. It's not ideal with the defensive system we play and how recruiting is tailored for that.

 

[MikeSU02]

Jake said it in another thread, this game was lost in recruiting.

They have better players that are more athletic and JB can't just out coach K.

Our team is fun to watch and at least appears to have good chemistry. But you can only have so many guys that are developing or role players playing big minutes or not have elite size and athleticism and expect to win consistently.

If we go on a run and sneak into the tourney, we'll be a dangerous first weekend team, but we have serious deficiencies across the board in size, speed and strength to be a contender.

Also, not every team will have a Vernon Carey.

 

[4the Dubbz]

we need more monkey

clarification needed

 

[orangecuse]

ok...so we switch to MTM vs Clemson...who guards Mack and who guards Simms?

That is not an answer.

You say we win the Clemson game if we switch to MTM. Tell us how.

I'll chime in. Obviously, it's a major dilemma, but perhaps we put our best athlete on the floor, Hughes at 6-4 with a solid physique, to guard the white hot player? Back in the day we used to put 6'2" Stevie Thompson on the opponents best scorer and more times than not the undersized Stevie shut the guy down or kept him off his averages. Maybe Hughes guards and stops or slows down Mack, where we make some other guy beat us? If I recall correctly, Mack scored the bulk of his points in the 2nd half along with a stretch of really being the only Clemson guy scoring. Once Sidibe fouled out, perhaps we put QG on Simms, at least he is physical enough to guard him somewhat and see what happens? Maybe Simms remains sleep walking as he did throughout the game, and doesn't come to life? But, even if he did in that time of dire situational adjustment, at least you take the ball out of Mack's hot hand, and make Simms have to wake up and beat you? Just a thought.

 

[Trueblue25]

Stanley’s fantastic

 

[kingtidge]

That is not an answer.

You say we win the Clemson game if we switch to MTM. Tell us how.

we need a new coach to play effective MTM.

I thought that much was obvious??

 

[Forza Azzurri]

we need a new coach to play effective MTM.

I thought that much was obvious??

Great. We have a new coach. He plays MTM. He is coaching the Clemson game. Who guards Mack and who guards Simms to turn the loss into a victory?

 

[kingtidge]

Great. We have a new coach. He plays MTM. He is coaching the Clemson game. Who guards Mack and who guards Simms to turn the loss into a victory?

A well coached player capable of playing MTM.

Hopefully we'd have a legit p5 center on the court at that point as well.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

A well coached player capable of playing MTM.

Hopefully we'd have a legit p5 center on the court at that point as well.

Again, not a response.

So, let me see if I have this straight:

In order to have beaten Clemson, we would need the following:

a switch to MTM
a coach capable of teaching MTM
players capable of playing MTM including a legit p5 center...

So, to summarize, we need a new defense with a new coach and new players...all to overcome that 1 point beat down on the road...

This is where that ignore option really comes in handy...See ya.

 

[kingtidge]

Again, not a response.

So, let me see if I have this straight:

In order to have beaten Clemson, we would need the following:

a switch to MTM
a coach capable of teaching MTM
players capable of playing MTM including a legit p5 center...

So, to summarize, we need a new defense with a new coach and new players...all to overcome that 1 point beat down on the road...

This is where that ignore option really comes in handy...See ya.

No, it's quite simple really... It's a story most all of know and understand.

• I said this was a familiar loss - the type of loss we see a few times every year, where zone gets demolished by some very average player that slices the zone apart in the key with short jumpers or baseline dishes for layups... for a career high.
• I then said the root cause of this classic "zone-only" loss was our inability to switch tactics to some semblance of a satisfactory MTM defense in these scenarios and it renders us incapable of making any effective adjustments - i.e. we have no plan B.
• I then said I hoped this would change when we had a new coach and regime after JB... Someone who would coach and use MTM effectively with the right players when warranted.

You then tried to create a hypothetical scenario that I had to prove how this would work in the Clemson game e.g. "...if I was coaching the Clemson game, to describe the exact MTM changes I'd make to win that game..."

I did not respond to that scenario, because it wasn't what I was talking about. My point was this game was an example of a trend we know well. But if you must know, on this specific game...

• I wouldn't make any changes.
• I would simply accept the loss.
• These players aren't coached to play MTM and therefore would be terrible at it.
• We also lack the requisite athleticism at several key positions to play MTM effectively in the ACC... don't have a true center, recruiting inadequacies, yadda yadda... The list goes on... all stuff we already know.

So I'm not sure what your point is... but yes, I look forward to a day when a Syracuse team can make an in-game adjustment to play MTM defense effectively when the zone is getting shredded.

..and I don't think that's a bridge too far or some sort of blasphemy to say that.