Is Duke that good or was it the game of their season

[AlpharettaCuse]

No, it's quite simple really... It's a story most all of know and understand.

• I said this was a familiar loss - the type of loss we see a few times every year, where zone gets demolished by some very average player that slices the zone apart in the key with short jumpers or baseline dishes for layups... for a career high.
• I then said the root cause of this classic "zone-only" loss was our inability to switch tactics to some semblance of a satisfactory MTM defense in these scenarios and it renders us incapable of making any effective adjustments - i.e. we have no plan B.
• I then said I hoped this would change when we had a new coach and regime after JB... Someone who would coach and use MTM effectively with the right players when warranted.

You then tried to create a hypothetical scenario that I had to prove how this would work in the Clemson game e.g. "...if I was coaching the Clemson game, to describe the exact MTM changes I'd make to win that game..."

I did not respond to that scenario, because it wasn't what I was talking about. My point was this game was an example of a trend we know well. But if you must know, on this specific game...

• I wouldn't make any changes.
• I would simply accept the loss.
• These players aren't coached to play MTM and therefore would be terrible at it.
• We also lack the requisite athleticism at several key positions to play MTM effectively in the ACC... don't have a true center, recruiting inadequacies, yadda yadda... The list goes on... all stuff we already know.

So I'm not sure what your point is... but yes, I look forward to a day when a Syracuse team can make an in-game adjustment to play MTM defense effectively when the zone is getting shredded.

..and I don't think that's a bridge too far or some sort of blasphemy to say that.

Doesn’t Washington switch between man and zone? They have a true, physical center and really athletic players all over. How come their defense keeps getting shredded?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I think we have to just tip our hats to Duke and move on. They had all sorts of starters playing limited minutes, and had to play O'Connell, Goldwire, etc...they overcame a lot of adversity.

Tre Jones played all 40 minutes against us. That’s insane!

Why would a coach do that? Especially a HOF coach with all kinds of talent on his bench?

 

[STEVEHOLT]

["We also lack the requisite athleticism at several key positions to play MTM effectively in the ACC.”

playing D is technique, effort , and attitude as much as it is athletic ability ... this is the same type of attitude that thinks rebounding is just size ..

It’s in fact garbage

 

[kingtidge]

Doesn’t Washington switch between man and zone? They have a true, physical center and really athletic players all over. How come their defense keeps getting shredded?

Haven't watched them enough to have an opinion on that, sorry.

["We also lack the requisite athleticism at several key positions to play MTM effectively in the ACC.”

playing D is technique, effort , and attitude as much as it is athletic ability ... this is the same type of attitude that thinks rebounding is just size ..

It’s in fact garbage

Right...

Why was zone defense even created then?? ... if every team can play man well and it's all about execution and effort??

 

[Ghost]

Tre Jones played all 40 minutes against us. That’s insane!

Why would a coach do that? Especially a HOF coach with all kinds of talent on his bench?

Huh?

You adjust to the situation - game, pace, score - plenty of reasons why it may happen situationally game to game with any number of players.
Some teams play a zone, so your PG may not get as tired. Sometimes you have an exploitable match-up that's going well. Maybe someone has the flu on the bench. All sorts of different reasons why, this shouldn't mystify you. Have you ever watched basketball before?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Huh?

You adjust to the situation - game, pace, score - plenty of reasons why it may happen situationally game to game with any number of players.
Some teams play a zone, so your PG may not get as tired. Sometimes you have an exploitable match-up that's going well. Maybe someone has the flu on the bench. All sorts of different reasons why, this shouldn't mystify you. Have you ever watched basketball before?

Tre Jones averages 36 MPG for the season, same as Buddy. He’s played 40 minutes five times this year. Played 39 four times. How could this be? ;-)

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Haven't watched them enough to have an opinion on that, sorry.



Right...

Why was zone defense even created then?? ... if every team can play man well and it's all about execution and effort

Haven't watched them enough to have an opinion on that, sorry.



Right...

Why was zone defense even created then?? ... if every team can play man well and it's all about execution and effort??

you just assume zone was created as a crutch? it's a tactic. Teams in the NBA play zone at times. You think they lack the athletic ability to play man? We've played zone many years when we had far superior athletes to the teams we faced.

aside from that, sure there are times when you are so outmatched athletically that you have to zone up...but that is rare...like a DII team playing vs a D1 in exhibition or a low major vs a P5...but two P5 teams? even though one may have better athletes, the difference is never so vast that you cannot play man D simply based on athleticism.

our team can't play man because we don't practice it and our coach doesn't want to coach it.
you think teams like wisconsin who were known over the years as good man defensive teams had better athletes than their competition?

 

[721Comstock]

Tre Jones averages 36 MPG for the season, same as Buddy. He’s played 40 minutes five times this year. Played 39 four times. How could this be? ;-)

Coach K stealing yet another page from JB’s playbook.

Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[kingtidge]

you just assume zone was created as a crutch? it's a tactic. Teams in the NBA play zone at times. You think they lack the athletic ability to play man? We've played zone many years when we had far superior athletes to the teams we faced.

It's A reason, but there are many reasons for playing zone and agreed, it's a tactic. Just like there are many reasons to play MTM. Many teams play both. I hope we can too some day.

aside from that, sure there are times when you are so outmatched athletically that you have to zone up...but that is rare...like a DII team playing vs a D1 in exhibition or a low major vs a P5...but two P5 teams? even though one may have better athletes, the difference is never so vast that you cannot play man D simply based on athleticism.

It's about matchups, if the opposing team has a couple fast, dynamic scorers and your players are too slow or lack athletic ability to cover them effectively, the zone can certainly help. Match up adjustments with double-team slides at areas that are being shredded... force other players less dynamic to beat you, etc. Use the best defensive tactics that make you most competitive in the matchup.,

our team can't play man because we don't practice it and our coach doesn't want to coach it.
you think teams like wisconsin who were known over the years as good man defensive teams had better athletes than their competition?

I pretty much said that in one of my previous posts, so we agree.

 

[OrangeDW]

Tre Jones averages 36 MPG for the season, same as Buddy. He’s played 40 minutes five times this year. Played 39 four times. How could this be? ;-)

Coach K’s short bench is nothing new either. And he actually has ZERO excuse not to have depth. Amazes me that kids keep lining up to go there.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I haven’t read through this whole thread but are people really advocating that THIS team play man to man?

 

[OrangeDW]

I haven’t read through this whole thread but are people really advocating that THIS team play man to man?

Some of that, and some “get better coaches and recruit better players and teach them to play great man to man” stuff.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I haven’t read through this whole thread but are people really advocating that THIS team play man to man?

nah just a 1-1-1-1-1 zone.

 

[OrangeDW]

nah just a 1-1-1-1-1 zone.

I’m trying to remember who the poster was a couple years ago that was advocating that we go to a box and 1. Like we’re playing against Madison or something.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Haven't watched them enough to have an opinion on that, sorry.

I used Washington because obviously Hopkins uses the 2-3 a ton. He switches to man to man sometimes. He has great athletes. Switching to man isn’t helping his defense. Maybe he should play one defense. JB has had some great defenses just playing all zone.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Coach K’s short bench is nothing new either. And he actually has ZERO excuse not to have depth. Amazes me that kids keep lining up to go there.

I think that Alex O’Connell kid could be a real good player if he got the playing time somewhere else.

 

[realorange]

Coach K’s short bench is nothing new either. And he actually has ZERO excuse not to have depth. Amazes me that kids keep lining up to go there.

K has actually been playing a long bench this year. His bench is not that much of a drop in talent from his starters.

 

[OrangeDW]

K has actually been playing a long bench this year. His bench is not that much of a drop in talent from his starters.

Just like the media with the “SU doesn’t leave the state of NY” thing, he’s gotta do it for at least 5 years in a row before I abandon the narrative.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Use the best defensive tactics that make you most competitive in the matchup.,.

Our Zone is what makes us most competitive every night out. It’s our staple and it’s what we play. It’s one of the best defenses in college basketball. It’s not a tactic or a gimmick. It’s our identity. Just like Michigan State’s identity is hard nosed man to man and rebounding and playing physical basketball. Nobody asks Izzo to switch out of man to man when his defense is getting torched. It happens to all defenses sometimes but teams don’t change their identity because someone goes off on them. Especially when that defense has historically been excellent. Our Zone hasn’t been great this season, mainly because we replaced 4 starters, IMO. Chuckwu, Battle and Frank were pretty good defenders.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Just like the media with the “SU doesn’t leave the state of NY” thing, he’s gotta do it for at least 5 years in a row before I abandon the narrative.

Tony Bennett is another one that seems to ride his starters major minutes. Short rotation. He just won a title.

 

[Ghost]

Tre Jones averages 36 MPG for the season, same as Buddy. He’s played 40 minutes five times this year. Played 39 four times. How could this be? ;-)

You struggle with questions you should be able to answer yourself!!!!

How could it be?

In Conference Games:
Buddy: 38 minute per game (40 minutes in 7 of last 9, 9 of last 12)
Tre Jones: 34 minutes per game (only once played back-to-back 40 minute games all year...)

Per 40 Minutes In Conference:
Buddy: 17 PPG, 2 Assists, 2 rebounds, .5 Steal, 2 Turnovers
Tre Jones: 17 PPG, 7 Assists, 5 rebounds, 2 Steals, 2.5 Turnovers

One of those guys plays a much bigger role in many areas than the other.

One guy has a pretty dynamic skill set, on offense, and especially on defense, scoring 17 points per game, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, playing hard-nosed defense as ESPN reminds me every 18 seconds each Duke broadcast.

The other guy can shoot threes really well.

You may be able to take some guesses as to how it can be...I'm not sure you'll get it right though!

 

[orangecuse]

I doubt very much JB has his portfolio in 100% of anything, whether it be equities, bonds, cash, etc. Especially, at his seasoned age.

Interesting listening to him speak in yesterday's radio show about Alex O'connell now having 3 consecutive double figure games against us, and how Prentiss Hubb hasn't hit threes on anyone else either as he did against us, yet remains too rigid & pigeon holed in his ways to adjust to the relative correlation.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

You struggle with questions you should be able to answer yourself!!!!

How could it be?

In Conference Games:
Buddy: 38 minute per game (40 minutes in 7 of last 9, 9 of last 12)
Tre Jones: 34 minutes per game (only once played back-to-back 40 minute games all year...)

Per 40 Minutes In Conference:
Buddy: 17 PPG, 2 Assists, 2 rebounds, .5 Steal, 2 Turnovers
Tre Jones: 17 PPG, 7 Assists, 5 rebounds, 2 Steals, 2.5 Turnovers

One of those guys plays a much bigger role in many areas than the other.

One guy has a pretty dynamic skill set, on offense, and especially on defense, scoring 17 points per game, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, playing hard-nosed defense as ESPN reminds me every 18 seconds each Duke broadcast.

The other guy can shoot threes really well.

You may be able to take some guesses as to how it can be...I'm not sure you'll get it right though!

wait...so it’s ok for the Duke PG to play 40 mpg, but not Buddy?

Jones only sits in blowouts, which Duke has a lot of. He played 42 minutes against SFA. Coach K rides him like a mule. But you’ll make silly excuses for him or any other coach not named Boeheim to suit your argument.

 

[Ghost]

wait...so it’s ok for the Duke PG to play 40 mpg, but not Buddy?

Jones only sits in blowouts, which Duke has a lot of. He played 42 minutes against SFA. Coach K rides him like a mule. But you’ll make silly excuses for him or any other coach not named Boeheim to suit your argument.

It's okay with me. I don't watch every Duke game, and I'm not that concerned with what they do. I can argue it, but some of it is guesswork.

Who won that SFA game? Did they play a 42 minute game? Did Duke blow us out?

Like a mule? Stop that.

You really see no difference in how someone could be more integral to their team's success based on supplementary skill sets, totality of circumstances - do you? You really, truly don't. That's amazing!

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

It's okay with me. I don't watch every Duke game, and I'm not that concerned with what they do. I can argue it, but some of it is guesswork.

Who won that SFA game? Did they play a 42 minute game? Did Duke blow us out?

Like a mule? Stop that.

You really see no difference in how someone could be more integral to their team's success based on supplementary skill sets, totality of circumstances - do you? You really, truly don't. That's amazing!

Eh...K does the same thing you’re criticizing JB for. So does Tony Bennett. They play their best players all of the game if necessary, to win the game, same as JB.

I’d say Buddy is very integral to our success, wouldn’t you?