Is recruiting the reason for the OL struggles?

[AngryOtto]

Agree, the jucos at OL and wr have been a bandaid that when ripped off have led to more bleeding.

Tinsdale seems to be holding his own this year. Dino’s son in law stepped right in. Everyone is saying how it would be different with Bleich. They struck out on alexander but there were a number of players from p5 programs with immediate eligibility in the portal.

 

[Steelerswan]

I feel the staff should have taken another juco and another immediate eligible transfer or two in the last class. It was clear Heckel was not coming back. They had lost Horan to a medical issue. Bleich was not a guarantee to get immediate eligibility. Several other guys had been medically disqualified from the previous classes. They needed to bring in older bigger players with experience. They brought in petry from the juco but he was 6’5 265 with limited playing experience. There were a number of players that were grad transfers in the portal that could have really helped the team this year.

Sorry, a juco with that size is simply a bad decision, already a 2 year project.

 

[AngryOtto]

The next year we will be good quote is laughable after it’s been repeated for 20 years. This cycle will never stop until recruiting improves dramatically. The reason we have so many dq players is because the staff is desperate and takes flyers.

Not sure recruiting is the main issue. When I did the break down many programs in the acc had similar rated players to su. There were some really high players some teams signed but it was not consistent.

 

[Cusefan78]

Not sure recruiting is the main issue. When I did the break down many programs in the acc had similar rated players to su. There were some really high players some teams signed but it was not consistent.

If we don’t have lineman ready to play then recruiting is an issue. If you lose players they need to be replaced. You can’t bank on a transfer getting a waiver so that excuse goes out the window. You don’t lose options abcd in one season at every position

 

[anomander]

who's that ?

Froumy and Bleich

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I feel the staff should have taken another juco and another immediate eligible transfer or two in the last class. It was clear Heckel was not coming back. They had lost Horan to a medical issue. Bleich was not a guarantee to get immediate eligibility. Several other guys had been medically disqualified from the previous classes. They needed to bring in older bigger players with experience. They brought in petry from the juco but he was 6’5 265 with limited playing experience. There were a number of players that were grad transfers in the portal that could have really helped the team this year.

You can only take the kids who want to come here.

It's not like you're shopping for a box of cereal at Wegmans.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Froumy and Bleich

Bleich wouldn’t help us now because he’s hurt and can’t play.

 

[AngryOtto]

You can only take the kids who want to come here.

It's not like you're shopping for a box of cereal at Wegmans.

Agree but it did not seem like the staff were perusing them. The staff keeps recruiting close to the vest but we usually hear something if the staff are reaching out to a transfer.

 

[RF2044]

The next year we will be good quote is laughable after it’s been repeated for 20 years. This cycle will never stop until recruiting improves dramatically. The reason we have so many dq players is because the staff is desperate and takes flyers.

What's even more laughable is your reading comprehension, if you derive that straw man BS from my post. I was only talking about numbers, that's all, and why the infusion in the last two classes is important to offset the imbalance caused by all the medical disqualifications at the top.

I also stated clearly that the majority of linemen we bring in take 2 to 3 years to develop, that's just the reality of the type of prospects we recruit. even a guy like Cruz, who's a borderline four-star, needs that time to add weight and strength in all likelihood.

We should be relying upon upperclassmen like Liam, Heckel, etc to anchor the first team offensive line. Instead, those guys aren't even on the team due to injuries. That isn't a recruiting issue -- it's an injury issue that took a few years just to correct in terms of numbers.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Agree but it did not seem like the staff were perusing them. The staff keeps recruiting close to the vest but we usually hear something if the staff are reaching out to a transfer.

It's tricky with kids in the portal. Dino and the staff can't publicly comment, and kids may not want to report every school that contacted them.

 

[Redrum]

Babers recruited, in order:

2016
Heckel - medically disqualified
Servais RSr
Liam OSullivan - medically disqualified
Mike Clark - medically disqualified

2017
Dakota Davis - out with injury RJr
Pat Davis Sr -
Tyrone Sampson - punted

2019
Qadir White RSo
Carolos Vettorello RSo
Will Froumy RSo

2019
Anthony Red RFr - out with injury
Matt Bergeron So
Darius Tisdale RJr

2020
Garth Barclay Fr
Josh llaoa Fr
Mark Petry Fr

*the medical DQs we haven't quite recovered from yet.

2021 current commits
Austyn Kauhi
Wes Hoeh
Kalan Ellis
Tyler Magnuson
Enrique Cruz

Will is hurt as well

 

[Cusester]

From my seats 6 rows behind the team bench Will Froumy passes the look test. Probably our most impressive looking OL. Hoping he heals and gets on the field soon.

 

[cuse10]

this isn't basketball, where immediate fixes can come in and make a huge impact. Especially on the offensive line. The type of recruits we get typically take two to three years to get where they need to be. There are exceptions of course. But by and large, that's how it rolls for us.

So when we have a significant portion of the first two classes disqualified or injured, it has a huge impact. Check out the way Phat laid it out above, and think about the implications.

I also put zero stock in anyone saying, let's just go get some juicos. this has to be an internal build / development / adequate depth progression. And because of the attrition from the first few classes, building that depth is behind schedule.

Why would you put zero stock in it? Syracuse is not in a position where they can wait years for guys to develop. They've ruined one quarterback because of it and they risk doing that down the line to Devito's replacement if it isn't addressed. Dungey's injuries piled up in the Shafer and Babers era because he was forced to use his feet. You don't think he wanted to clean pocket to pass out of instead of having to run all over the field to extend plays when protection broke down? Grad transfers and Junior College players do work. Just because Alexander flopped doesn't mean you stay away from it. Get players who are showing they'll buy into the system.

For those that don't watch anything outside of SU, we have a conference mate that neglected the line and in the process, they ruined two quarterbacks (Deondre Francois and James Blackman). If you're a QB and see that I can't be protected, why would I give you the time of day?

 

[RF2044]

Why would you put zero stock in it? Syracuse is not in a position where they can wait years for guys to develop. They've ruined one quarterback because of it and they risk doing that down the line to Devito's replacement if it isn't addressed. Dungey's injuries piled up in the Shafer and Babers era because he was forced to use his feet. You don't think he wanted to clean pocket to pass out of instead of having to run all over the field to extend plays when protection broke down? Grad transfers and Junior College players do work. Just because Alexander flopped doesn't mean you stay away from it. Get players who are showing they'll buy into the system.

For those that don't watch anything outside of SU, we have a conference mate that neglected the line and in the process, they ruined two quarterbacks (Deondre Francois and James Blackman). If you're a QB and see that I can't be protected, why would I give you the time of day?

I put zero stock in it because we haven't had luck with JUCO OL. Go back 20 / 30 years, and let me know which JUCO OL have worked well here. People who don't understand the recruiting landscape act like there are JUCO blue chippers out there lying around, we just need to add them and -- problem magically solved. And because the staff isn't doing that, they are asleep at the wheel. But we aren't in a geographic region with strong JUCO programs, we don't have regional connections to any "feeder" programs at the JUCO level -- so it isn't a viable strategy for us.

If we were in Kansas, Texas, California, the deep south, etc. -- it WOULD be a viable strategy, because there are bountiful JUCO programs in those regions that are close geographically to the local P5 schools. That's not the case in the Northeast.

As a situational supplemental strategy -- sure. Tiller was terrific [although we landed him in large part due to hiring his JUCO head coach]. Tisdale looks promising -- hope it continues. But searching the JUCO ranks for plug and play OL isn't a viable strategy for SU, for a variety of reasons. Many other positions? Much easier to snag potential contributors.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I put zero stock in it because we haven't had luck with JUCO OL. Go back 20 / 30 years, and let me know which JUCO OL have worked well here. People who don't understand the recruiting landscape act like there are JUCO blue chippers out there lying around, we just need to add them and -- problem magically solved. And because the staff isn't doing that, they are asleep at the wheel. But we aren't in a geographic region with strong JUCO programs, we don't have regional connections to any "feeder" programs at the JUCO level -- so it isn't a viable strategy for us.

If we were in Kansas, Texas, California, the deep south, etc. -- it WOULD be a viable strategy, because there are bountiful JUCO programs in those regions that are close geographically to the local P5 schools. That's not the case in the Northeast.

As a situational supplemental strategy -- sure. Tiller was terrific [although we landed him in large part due to hiring his JUCO head coach]. Tisdale looks promising -- hope it continues. But searching the JUCO ranks for plug and play OL isn't a viable strategy for SU, for a variety of reasons. Many other positions? Much easier to snag potential contributors.

Yeah, JUCO is a solution if it's a well that you go to often. But we're not a program that heavily mines JUCO, so we're not really in the conversation for getting the best ones.

Tiller was our best JUCO lineman I think. Even though I was not impressed with his game, Hay was also a starter for us. Those would have to be our most productive, I'd think, and it probably isn't a coincidence that they were under Marrone, a guy that had OL coaching as a personal strength.

 

[RF2044]

Yeah, JUCO is a solution if it's a well that you go to often. But we're not a program that heavily mines JUCO, so we're not really in the conversation for getting the best ones.

Tiller was our best JUCO lineman I think. Even though I was not impressed with his game, Hay was also a starter for us. Those would have to be our most productive, I'd think, and it probably isn't a coincidence that they were under Marrone, a guy that had OL coaching as a personal strength.

Don't get me started on Hay.

Agree with the rest. It isn't a "fix" for SU. Now, can it be used as a supplemental strategy? Should SU actively recruit guys that they think can bolster depth? Yes to both -- but as you adroitly point out, 'Cuse isn't typically landing highly rated players from the JUCO ranks who can step right in and contribute. Case in point: Petry. We have no idea whether he'll be a contributor. I'd consider it a "win" if he cracks the two deep [beyond this year's emergency depth situation] and contributes even as a platoon player.

Anything more than that is gravy. If he ends up being a starter [even for a year] -- cool. But he is very typical of the type of JUCO OL we land, and he isn't a guy that you bring in to be an immediate plug and play surefire starter.

 

[PhatOrange]

I loved Hay. I wish we had a mean nasty occasional after the whistle cheap shot OT right now. It's an attitude and sets a tone. Our guys play soft.

 

[RF2044]

I loved Hay. I wish we had a mean nasty occasional after the whistle cheap shot OT right now. It's an attitude and sets a tone. Our guys play soft.

Did you love those two 15 yard penalties he was good for every game? I was very disappointed with Michael Hay's production, and how he hurt the team. Felt like he was capable of being a much better, smarter player.

 

[PhatOrange]

Did you love those two 15 yard penalties he was good for every game? I was very disappointed with Michael Hay's production, and how he hurt the team. Felt like he was capable of being a much better, smarter player.

At times I didn't mind them at all.

2 year starter at Tackle, back to back 1,000 yard rushers, 5,000 yards passing, 41 TDs and 17 INTs. I couldn't find sack stats for 2010 but in 2011 they only gave up 28 sacks.

 

[SoBristol]

Did you love those two 15 yard penalties he was good for every game? I was very disappointed with Michael Hay's production, and how he hurt the team. Felt like he was capable of being a much better, smarter player.

Disappointed compared to which other player that was available? Marrone fortified his lines, both offense and defense, with jucos. Hay was a Hofstra transfer after it closed its program, and he started right away for lack of other options. Bringing in help was a key part of the two 8 win seasons. Marrone’s better line had Pugh (home grown, #1 draft pick) and Tiller (juco, 6th round pick). Those two won battles and opened holes. We have average joes (Bergeron is the exception, but he had to start as a true frosh for lack of other talent).

 

[RF2044]

Disappointed compared to which other player that was available? Marrone fortified his lines, both offense and defense, with jucos. Hay was a Hofstra transfer after it closed its program, and he started right away for lack of other options. Bringing in help was a key part of the two 8 win seasons. Marrone’s better line had Pugh (home grown, #1 draft pick) and Tiller (juco, 6th round pick). Those two won battles and opened holes. We have average joes (Bergeron is the exception, but he had to start as a true frosh for lack of other talent).

Some of that is definitely true. Marrone did a nice job turning the OL -- which is traditionally not a position of strength for SU, even what we had good teams -- into a solid performing unit that was much better than what he took over.

But Hay was not a Hofstra transfer -- he was a JUCO. We brought in a WR and a TE from Hofstra when their program closed down.

I think people are not remembering Marrone's exasperation with Hay, and him getting benched for the dumb penalties that killed drives and hurt the team. I don't dispute that he belonged physically at P5, but his performance was undermined by the bonehead penalties. I'm "disappointed" because I thought he was capable of more, if he hadn't been such a hot head. In that way, I see him as being similar to Revean Pierce -- who had a ton of ability, but who got benched a lot [especially in his second year] when the coaching staff tired of his propensity to hurt the team with dumb personal foul penalties -- Pierce left a lot of unactualized production out on the field, because the coaches didn't trust him.

Back to Hay -- since we're discussing Marrone's lines, in my opinion, Hickey was a much better player at RT than Hay, who he replaced after the latter's eligiblity expired.

Agree 100% on Bergeron.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Did you love those two 15 yard penalties he was good for every game? I was very disappointed with Michael Hay's production, and how he hurt the team. Felt like he was capable of being a much better, smarter player.

Hay made up for limited talent by getting flagged for costly penalties.

 

[721Comstock]

Hay made up for limited talent by getting flagged for costly penalties.

Ravian Pierce must have watched Hay and said, "hold my beer!"

 

[RandomGuy]

I've always been of the mindset that oline success is dependent on coaching and development. (Example- Addazio.)

 

[SoBristol]

I've always been of the mindset that oline success is dependent on coaching and development. (Example- Addazio.)

And to round that out, Addazio (west regions) along with the Nassau cc coach (East) were the prime movers under Marrone in bringing in jucos. Coaching, sure, but first you bring in help, aggressively. You get bigger kids, more ready to play, then you coach. It isn’t the best long range plan, but the alternative (depending on what you have) is taking lumps. Marrone plainly believed he needed help, and he found it in the lines, at LB and safety.