Is Syracuse Football A Lost Cause? | Syracusefan.com

Is Syracuse Football A Lost Cause?

IthaCuse

Walk On
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We dance around this question a lot on this forum, so I figured it was time to pose it explicitly. Here is what we know:

1. Each school may set aside $20.5 million in revenue to split among all athletes, with any additional coming from NIL.
2. They claim that NIL payments will now be regulated more strictly to ensure that it is a legitimate NIL deal.
3. These wealthy boosters are very likely able to get around increased enforcement via actually putting these kids in ads.
4. Therefore, while the $20.5 million will help us significantly, it will not bring us to parity with peer schools.
5. We will spend most, though not all, of the $20.5 million on football.

Just doing some quick googling, it appears the top 25 football programs had NIL budgets starting at around $10 million, with the top 10 and especially top 5 being way above that. With athletic departments now being allowed to infuse cash directly, NIL has become a supplementary way to pay players rather than primary. One of the major questions people have is how that will impact donor investment into NIL. This is speculation, but my belief is that NIL donor activity will increase as a result, especially at the "rich" schools. That being said, we are probably looking at having a budget anywhere from half to 75% of our top level peers, depending on our corporate support.

It doesn't seem to me that we can compete in such an environment, as our best players will always get poached. Why wouldn't a Clemson or Florida State type of program just buy our best players every year? People may point to Indiana or Vanderbilt as examples of why we can still win, but these schools have far more resources than we do and have only been able to sustain this level of football for 1 or 2 seasons so far. This seems like a situation where we have been rendered structurally incapable of competing at the highest level of college football.

That being said, if you take the $20.5 million and apply it 100% to men's basketball, suddenly you probably have about $25 million annually in player payment budget. It has been publicly reported that the "$10 million club" is the gold standard currently for college basketball program NIL spending. 9 of the 10 programs in that $10 million club play high level football, and of those only Duke will spend a bulk of those funds on basketball. If the athletic department makes a conscious decision to pivot to a basketball centric focus, the basketball program actually could sustain one of the highest NIL budgets in the nation on an annual basis. At that point you would have a program with one of the largest fanbases, one of the largest NIL budgets, in relatively close proximity to hotbeds like NYC & Philadelphia, you can see how it brings basketball back to being a potential powerhouse.

That being said, it's not so cut and dry even if the AD wanted to make the pivot I am suggesting. The ACC will insist that we maintain high level football, so doing this would functionally mean we are telling the ACC to kick us out. It may lead to a few seasons of putting a shell of a football team out there to get slaughtered every fall. We would also be banking on the Big East taking us back when an eventual ACC split happens, which I think is a fairly safe bet.

To be clear, none of this speculation is something I enjoy stating. I have been a Syracuse football fan since I went to my first game at home against Rutgers when I was 11 years old back in 2003. I was a fan through Perry Patterson, Greg Paulus, Ryan Nassib, Terrell Hunt, AJ Long, Rex Culpepper, Zack Mahoney, Eric Dungey, you name it. But at this point I am looking at two floundering programs, and on the football side I just can't convince myself that we have any hope of competing at the highest level going forward. That being said, I would rather go all in on basketball with the prayer that we can get the program back to where it was when I was a kid than keep pretending we have a chance at competing in football.
 
Yep, we’re doomed.

Might as well drop to Patriot league and Big East for everything else.

There’s no hope. The light at the end of the tunnel is the train coming to run you over.

Fran is a fraud and Fire Autry, and Wildhack brings nothing to the table.
 
It's not a lost cause because dozens of other schools will be in the same boat. Flippant answers aside, I think it is going to be very difficult for SU to stay in the arm$ race of college football and remaining at the big boy table. People who think recent rulings help us ...don't see it.
 
A lot of rich people came out of Syracuse. A lot of them have big corporate money they could potentially put towards our NIL sponsorships. I am sure they are being worked over for NIL funding. I would not say we won't be able to raise enough funds to compete on a big stage. Our donors might be fewer, but possibly even mightier.
 
If we need donors to get to the 20.5M, what is left over to compete with the schools that are going 20.5M from the school plus another $50M from donors? And then you get into the coaching staffs, GM, etc. I am not sure how we compete realistically. The idea of a top 3-5 finish in the ACC starts to look like our ceiling.
 
We have no clue of the end game.

We don't know where conferences will end up. We don't know where the portal will end up. We don't know where NIL will end up. We don't know where access to the playoffs will end up.

Without knowing those answers one cannot say how SU fits or does not fit (lost cause).


For me the worst case scenario would be SU in the B12. That means that both the B1G/SEC expanded and that the ACC is dead. We are chasing waterfalls by joining the B12 when at that point IMO it is better to pull back a bit and stay in an Northeastern centric ACC 2.0 instead. Being in the B12 would end SU FB for me.
 
If we need donors to get to the 20.5M, what is left over to compete with the schools that are going 20.5M from the school plus another $50M from donors? And then you get into the coaching staffs, GM, etc. I am not sure how we compete realistically. The idea of a top 3-5 finish in the ACC starts to look like our ceiling.
I will say it is time for the school to put up or shut up. If we truly are too poor to compete, then move on. If we are merely crying poor, then start putting the resources into the program.
 
We dance around this question a lot on this forum, so I figured it was time to pose it explicitly. Here is what we know:

1. Each school may set aside $20.5 million in revenue to split among all athletes, with any additional coming from NIL.
2. They claim that NIL payments will now be regulated more strictly to ensure that it is a legitimate NIL deal.
3. These wealthy boosters are very likely able to get around increased enforcement via actually putting these kids in ads.
4. Therefore, while the $20.5 million will help us significantly, it will not bring us to parity with peer schools.
5. We will spend most, though not all, of the $20.5 million on football.

Just doing some quick googling, it appears the top 25 football programs had NIL budgets starting at around $10 million, with the top 10 and especially top 5 being way above that. With athletic departments now being allowed to infuse cash directly, NIL has become a supplementary way to pay players rather than primary. One of the major questions people have is how that will impact donor investment into NIL. This is speculation, but my belief is that NIL donor activity will increase as a result, especially at the "rich" schools. That being said, we are probably looking at having a budget anywhere from half to 75% of our top level peers, depending on our corporate support.

It doesn't seem to me that we can compete in such an environment, as our best players will always get poached. Why wouldn't a Clemson or Florida State type of program just buy our best players every year? People may point to Indiana or Vanderbilt as examples of why we can still win, but these schools have far more resources than we do and have only been able to sustain this level of football for 1 or 2 seasons so far. This seems like a situation where we have been rendered structurally incapable of competing at the highest level of college football.

That being said, if you take the $20.5 million and apply it 100% to men's basketball, suddenly you probably have about $25 million annually in player payment budget. It has been publicly reported that the "$10 million club" is the gold standard currently for college basketball program NIL spending. 9 of the 10 programs in that $10 million club play high level football, and of those only Duke will spend a bulk of those funds on basketball. If the athletic department makes a conscious decision to pivot to a basketball centric focus, the basketball program actually could sustain one of the highest NIL budgets in the nation on an annual basis. At that point you would have a program with one of the largest fanbases, one of the largest NIL budgets, in relatively close proximity to hotbeds like NYC & Philadelphia, you can see how it brings basketball back to being a potential powerhouse.

That being said, it's not so cut and dry even if the AD wanted to make the pivot I am suggesting. The ACC will insist that we maintain high level football, so doing this would functionally mean we are telling the ACC to kick us out. It may lead to a few seasons of putting a shell of a football team out there to get slaughtered every fall. We would also be banking on the Big East taking us back when an eventual ACC split happens, which I think is a fairly safe bet.

To be clear, none of this speculation is something I enjoy stating. I have been a Syracuse football fan since I went to my first game at home against Rutgers when I was 11 years old back in 2003. I was a fan through Perry Patterson, Greg Paulus, Ryan Nassib, Terrell Hunt, AJ Long, Rex Culpepper, Zack Mahoney, Eric Dungey, you name it. But at this point I am looking at two floundering programs, and on the football side I just can't convince myself that we have any hope of competing at the highest level going forward. That being said, I would rather go all in on basketball with the prayer that we can get the program back to where it was when I was a kid than keep pretending we have a chance at competing in football.
Welcome aboard Walk On! What a welcome addition you are! Please post often.
 
Rick And Morty Jerry GIF by Adult Swim
 
We have no clue of the end game.

We don't know where conferences will end up. We don't know where the portal will end up. We don't know where NIL will end up. We don't know where access to the playoffs will end up.

Without knowing those answers one cannot say how SU fits or does not fit (lost cause).


For me the worst case scenario would be SU in the B12. That means that both the B1G/SEC expanded and that the ACC is dead. We are chasing waterfalls by joining the B12 when at that point IMO it is better to pull back a bit and stay in an Northeastern centric ACC 2.0 instead. Being in the B12 would end SU FB for me.
I disagree on the B12. Assume losing Clemson, FSU, ND, and UNC to the B1G/SEC... I believe a 30-team B12/ACC hybrid of leftovers could be really fun from a basketball/football perspective if done correctly:

West: Arizona, Arizona State, BYU, Utah, Stanford, Cal
Southwest: SMU, TCU, Houston, Texas Tech, Baylor, Oklahoma State
Midwest: Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Louisville, Cincinnati, Colorado
Southeast: Duke, NC State, Wake Forest, Miami, UCF, Georgia Tech
Northeast: West Virginia, Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Virginia Tech, Virginia

If you play you own division, plus one from each other division, could be pretty cool for football. You still have Texas Tech, BYU, Miami, Arizona State, and SMU as playoff caliber teams to justify at least 2 guaranteed spots. I could see a 16-team playoff with 4 B1G, 4 SEC, 4 B12/ACC, 1 G5, and 3 at-large (almost always SEC/B1G/ND). That would also stabilize college football pretty well.

For basketball, a conference with Arizona, Houston, Kansas, Duke, Louisville, NC State, and Syracuse has a lot of name potential. If Miami or Va Tech goes instead of ND, backfill with UConn. Helps hoops all the more.

Perfect? No. But we would have games against WVU, Pitt, and BC every year, as we should. We played a very national schedule in the 1960s.
 
The CFP will almost certainly expand to at least 16 (big ten wants 24, but I don’t see it).

We either make or are just outside the playoff literally last season.

(I also don’t think playoff or season is a failure is a healthy expectation if that’s what the poster is going for. I had too much fun watching Kyle McCord to be disappointed that we played in the Holiday Bowl).
 
I disagree on the B12. Assume losing Clemson, FSU, ND, and UNC to the B1G/SEC... I believe a 30-team B12/ACC hybrid of leftovers could be really fun from a basketball/football perspective if done correctly:

West: Arizona, Arizona State, BYU, Utah, Stanford, Cal
Southwest: SMU, TCU, Houston, Texas Tech, Baylor, Oklahoma State
Midwest: Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Louisville, Cincinnati, Colorado
Southeast: Duke, NC State, Wake Forest, Miami, UCF, Georgia Tech
Northeast: West Virginia, Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Virginia Tech, Virginia

If you play you own division, plus one from each other division, could be pretty cool for football. You still have Texas Tech, BYU, Miami, Arizona State, and SMU as playoff caliber teams to justify at least 2 guaranteed spots. I could see a 16-team playoff with 4 B1G, 4 SEC, 4 B12/ACC, 1 G5, and 3 at-large (almost always SEC/B1G/ND). That would also stabilize college football pretty well.

For basketball, a conference with Arizona, Houston, Kansas, Duke, Louisville, NC State, and Syracuse has a lot of name potential. If Miami or Va Tech goes instead of ND, backfill with UConn. Helps hoops all the more.

Perfect? No. But we would have games against WVU, Pitt, and BC every year, as we should. We played a very national schedule in the 1960s.

If that many ACC teams are left over, there is no rational for joining with the B12. Plus none of those ACC schools really want to associate with the B12 anyway.
 
TL DR

John Candy No GIF by Laff

Syracuse has produced 10-win seasons in both 2018 and 2025. That alone matters in a Power-conference context.

The idea that spending equals winning just doesn’t hold up when you look at the data. College football increasingly mirrors professional sports in this way: money helps, but it is not deterministic.

In fact, LSU and Texas ranked in the top three nationally in football spending and neither had a great season relative to that investment. Being top-3 in spending and still falling short of elite results undercuts the argument that budget alone drives success.

It gets clearer when you zoom out. Among the top-25 spending programs, several teams spent $10+ million and still failed to reach 10 wins:
  • Penn State
  • Florida
  • Clemson
  • Arkansas
  • Florida State
High payrolls did not insulate those programs from mediocre outcomes.

By contrast, Syracuse performs efficiently for a non-state school that relies heavily on alumni funding rather than massive public subsidies. That doesn’t mean the status quo is perfect there is obvious room to grow, particularly in corporate sponsorships and NIL-adjacent partnerships but the foundation is not broken.


From an infrastructure and brand standpoint, Syracuse checks real boxes:
  • Facilities are competitive
  • The program has legitimate historical relevance
  • The Dome is a unique, nationally recognizable venue
  • Fran Brown has demonstrated that Syracuse can recruit at a Power-conference level

Yes, last season was a disaster there’s no point pretending otherwise. But that season exists alongside a 10-win year under the same head coach. Ignoring one while fixating on the other is bad analysis.

Looking at ACC performance this decade, Syracuse is not the worst:
12. Syracuse 29–33 (46.8%)
13. Virginia Tech 27–32 (45.8%)
14. Georgia Tech 25–35 (41.7%)
15. Cal 22–32 (40.7%)
16. Virginia 22–34 (39.3%)
17. Stanford 16–38 (29.6%)


Programs that are truly lost causes don’t produce 10-win seasons, don’t recruit at a Power-conference level, and don’t get top 30 recruiting classes and high level transfers. Syracuse does all three. The data says this program’s ceiling is real and its floor, while ugly at times, is not existential. If you’re looking for irrelevance, look elsewhere. Syracuse’s problem is inconsistency, not inevitability.
 
We dance around this question a lot on this forum, so I figured it was time to pose it explicitly. Here is what we know:

1. Each school may set aside $20.5 million in revenue to split among all athletes, with any additional coming from NIL.
2. They claim that NIL payments will now be regulated more strictly to ensure that it is a legitimate NIL deal.
3. These wealthy boosters are very likely able to get around increased enforcement via actually putting these kids in ads.
4. Therefore, while the $20.5 million will help us significantly, it will not bring us to parity with peer schools.
5. We will spend most, though not all, of the $20.5 million on football.

Just doing some quick googling, it appears the top 25 football programs had NIL budgets starting at around $10 million, with the top 10 and especially top 5 being way above that. With athletic departments now being allowed to infuse cash directly, NIL has become a supplementary way to pay players rather than primary. One of the major questions people have is how that will impact donor investment into NIL. This is speculation, but my belief is that NIL donor activity will increase as a result, especially at the "rich" schools. That being said, we are probably looking at having a budget anywhere from half to 75% of our top level peers, depending on our corporate support.

It doesn't seem to me that we can compete in such an environment, as our best players will always get poached. Why wouldn't a Clemson or Florida State type of program just buy our best players every year? People may point to Indiana or Vanderbilt as examples of why we can still win, but these schools have far more resources than we do and have only been able to sustain this level of football for 1 or 2 seasons so far. This seems like a situation where we have been rendered structurally incapable of competing at the highest level of college football.

That being said, if you take the $20.5 million and apply it 100% to men's basketball, suddenly you probably have about $25 million annually in player payment budget. It has been publicly reported that the "$10 million club" is the gold standard currently for college basketball program NIL spending. 9 of the 10 programs in that $10 million club play high level football, and of those only Duke will spend a bulk of those funds on basketball. If the athletic department makes a conscious decision to pivot to a basketball centric focus, the basketball program actually could sustain one of the highest NIL budgets in the nation on an annual basis. At that point you would have a program with one of the largest fanbases, one of the largest NIL budgets, in relatively close proximity to hotbeds like NYC & Philadelphia, you can see how it brings basketball back to being a potential powerhouse.

That being said, it's not so cut and dry even if the AD wanted to make the pivot I am suggesting. The ACC will insist that we maintain high level football, so doing this would functionally mean we are telling the ACC to kick us out. It may lead to a few seasons of putting a shell of a football team out there to get slaughtered every fall. We would also be banking on the Big East taking us back when an eventual ACC split happens, which I think is a fairly safe bet.

To be clear, none of this speculation is something I enjoy stating. I have been a Syracuse football fan since I went to my first game at home against Rutgers when I was 11 years old back in 2003. I was a fan through Perry Patterson, Greg Paulus, Ryan Nassib, Terrell Hunt, AJ Long, Rex Culpepper, Zack Mahoney, Eric Dungey, you name it. But at this point I am looking at two floundering programs, and on the football side I just can't convince myself that we have any hope of competing at the highest level going forward. That being said, I would rather go all in on basketball with the prayer that we can get the program back to where it was when I was a kid than keep pretending we have a chance at competing in football.
I understand your argument for funding basketball. My question would be, without football, do we have the revenue to pay athletes 20 mil. I'm guessing we're using our ACC money to supply that money. Without football there is no ACC and no ACC money.
 
I understand your argument for funding basketball. My question would be, without football, do we have the revenue to pay athletes 20 mil. I'm guessing we're using our ACC money to supply that money. Without football there is no ACC and no ACC money.
Basketball is still a top ten money maker (for now).
ACC is getting us the funds for the $20 million and the increased support staffs.
We 100% need football.
 
Lot of schools outside the top 10-20 facing the same questions and issues over funding. The real issue is a matter of priorities and where you spend the money. We saw the same question with facilities and have somehow survived (although we were late to fixing ours).

If athletics is truly important to the university (and all the data shows it is according to conversations with the higher ups), we will find a way. The revenue is too important and big time sports matters to the students we're trying to recruit.

The good news is that our AD has been run fairly frugal and we don't face the huge debt issues that many of our "peer" programs do (such as Rutgers, Maryland, etc.).

The real issue is the generational money in the SEC schools. Some of that is impossible to compete with, especially if those donors keep it up. Folks should really root against oil and gas companies and buy EVs if you want northern football to succeed.
 

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