It's showtime -- let the (NBA) games begin!

[jordoo]

That was a gut punch that I don't think Cleveland can overcome. They got excellent offensive games from Kyrie and Lebron. JR remembered how to make jump shots. The warriors got what 2 maybe 3 whistles the whole game going to the basket? I mean this was a game that at home you have to win to make this a series. The Cavs helped that late run by taking some bad shots and forgetting that Durrant, Steph and Clay want to shoot 3's but in the end the Warriors got it done when they needed to.

 

[Ward]

Bottom line is he is supposed to be the player of his generation. He has done an unbelievable job of getting to the finals but his record there is not ideal. He also sparked this super team concept in my opinion. You reap what you sow.

As my past posts have shown I'm a big LeBron fan. Having said that, I don't see the merit in the argument that his Finals record is a knock on him. 2011 he deserves every bit of criticism thrown his way but I don't know about the other years.

'07 it was crazy he even got them there and had that historic game against the Pistons. Everyone knew SA was in a different tier than that Cavs team.
'14 He had big games but Spurs were just better than the HEAT and caught fire at the perfect time on top of it.
'15 he went against the Warriors without Kyrie and Love.
'17 not looking good but I really don't know if any team in NBA history would beat these Warriors in a 7 game series

 

[RF2044]

As my past posts have shown I'm a big LeBron fan. Having said that, I don't see the merit in the argument that his Finals record is a knock on him. 2011 he deserves every bit of criticism thrown his way but I don't know about the other years.

'07 it was crazy he even got them there and had that historic game against the Pistons. Everyone knew SA was in a different tier than that Cavs team.
'14 He had big games but Spurs were just better than the HEAT and caught fire at the perfect time on top of it.
'15 he went against the Warriors without Kyrie and Love.
'17 not looking good but I really don't know if any team in NBA history would beat these Warriors in a 7 game series

People also forget how incredibly good those Spurs teams were in '07 and '14 because the Spurs get taken for granted. That team in '14 looked like they were going to be a dynasty, given how easily they steamrolled the Heat. Miami won one game [and it might have even been game 1], and then proceeded to lose by ~20 every other game. Dominating.

And this GS team is historically good, as well.

I do think that the final record matters, but it certainly is not all on Lebron.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Taurean Thompson 3 rebounds. Steph Curry
13. What a horrible contract.

 

[Tom K.]

Taurean Thompson 3 rebounds. Steph Curry
13. What a horrible contract.

I think you've got Cuse on the brain

 

[jordoo]

Taurean Thompson 3 rebounds. Steph Curry
13. What a horrible contract.

Tristan doesn't do well in this up and down format and doesn't do much on offense without getting his offensive rebounding going. He is an excellent rebounder but I have to agree that he is being overpaid. It's interesting to me that Cleveland still seems to be trying to outscore Golden State. That won't work.

 

[Eric15]

As my past posts have shown I'm a big LeBron fan. Having said that, I don't see the merit in the argument that his Finals record is a knock on him. 2011 he deserves every bit of criticism thrown his way but I don't know about the other years.

'07 it was crazy he even got them there and had that historic game against the Pistons. Everyone knew SA was in a different tier than that Cavs team.
'14 He had big games but Spurs were just better than the HEAT and caught fire at the perfect time on top of it.
'15 he went against the Warriors without Kyrie and Love.
'17 not looking good but I really don't know if any team in NBA history would beat these Warriors in a 7 game series

I have no idea what people expect of Lebron. He's averaging 32.0 ppg, 12.3 rpg and 10.3 apg in the Finals, yet I'm sure when the Cavs lose this series some people will somehow twist it as a knock on Lebron's legacy.

 

[Eric15]

People also forget how incredibly good those Spurs teams were in '07 and '14 because the Spurs get taken for granted. That team in '14 looked like they were going to be a dynasty, given how easily they steamrolled the Heat. Miami won one game [and it might have even been game 1], and then proceeded to lose by ~20 every other game. Dominating.

And this GS team is historically good, as well.

I do think that the final record matters, but it certainly is not all on Lebron.

I remember thinking that 2014 Spurs team played the most beautiful team basketball I've ever seen in my life.

 

[Ward]

Saw one writer tweet out a hypothetical what if Cavs try a deal centered around Love for George and then another deal centered around Kyrie for Butler. So you have LeBron, George and Butler as your core. Theory is that you need pieces that are versatile on both ends and with LeBron you don't really need a great point guard. Not sure what you do for depth or role players though because that would impact the rosters current construct obviously.

I don't know if you can give up Kyrie because of how special a scorer he can be but on the flip side you aren't beating GS as currently constructed so maybe it can't hurt to try a different approach.

What hurt Cavs the most last night was the abysmal 3 point shooting. Doesn't really matter what else happens you aren't beating Golden State if you take 44 3's and only make 12. Korver and Love shot a combined 3-13 from 3. Kyrie 0-7 but was still great scoring the ball. Warriors are too potent on offense to survive with that kind of shooting.

 

[jordoo]

I have no idea what people expect of Lebron. He's averaging 32.0 ppg, 12.3 rpg and 10.3 apg in the Finals, yet I'm sure when the Cavs lose this series some people will somehow twist it as a knock on Lebron's legacy.

People want to see him win over and over again like Jordan did to validate his greatness. They seem to forget Jordan played on the best team in the league. It wasn't Jordan on a good team trying to take down the best team in the league. It wasn't Jordan carrying a team to the finals that had no business being there without him. I don't care who you replace Lebron with these teams he's lost in the finals with aren't winning those series. IMO Lebron is such a great player that people have to invent reasons to tear him down.

 

[Tom K.]

I remember thinking that 2014 Spurs team played the most beautiful team basketball I've ever seen in my life.

Baffles me that anyone could ever call the Spurs and what they do on the court "boring".

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Tristan doesn't do well in this up and down format and doesn't do much on offense without getting his offensive rebounding going. He is an excellent rebounder but I have to agree that he is being overpaid. It's interesting to me that Cleveland still seems to be trying to outscore Golden State. That won't work.

The way the Cavs are built this season I think they have a better chance trying to outscore the Warriors than they do trying to make the game a slog. They don't really have the roster to play ugly, and that's not what got them to the finals.

 

[jordoo]

The way the Cavs are built this season I think they have a better chance trying to outscore the Warriors than they do trying to make the game a slog. They don't really have the roster to play ugly, and that's not what got them to the finals.

I get that but they are playing more and more like the Warriors as this series goes on. Kyrie pulling up in a 1 on 3 to take a 3 is not Clevelands game. They are taking too many 3's, pushing too often when its not there and not attacking the basket enough. They aren't winning this series anyway they were never going to. Still I would think you ruin selectively, run and offense that features Lebron and Kyrie going to the basket and take enough time in half court sets to get your rebounders in position.

 

[Tom K.]

So does anybody become the scapegoat in Cleveland after the series? Or is this just a "meh, it's the Warriors" thing and Cleveland resigns themselves to being 2nd best?

As it pertains to this year, I think you kinda just shrug. Warriors too good.
But don't think for a second that they will resign to being 2nd best next year. They will make some moves.
Makes me wonder where this team would be with Andrew Wiggins, who is still on his rookie contract mind you.

 

[Melancer46]

Between shooting too early at the end of the first, and pointlessly fouling Curry 50 feet from the hoop, Shumpert has handed GS 4 points by doing some really dumb things.

Don't forget singlehandedly blowing up their defensive rotations to give up a wide open 3 during that sequence too. Shumpert did a ton of damage to the Cavs chances in that last minute of the quarter.

 

[Knicks411]

People also forget how incredibly good those Spurs teams were in '07 and '14 because the Spurs get taken for granted. That team in '14 looked like they were going to be a dynasty, given how easily they steamrolled the Heat. Miami won one game [and it might have even been game 1], and then proceeded to lose by ~20 every other game. Dominating.

And this GS team is historically good, as well.

I do think that the final record matters, but it certainly is not all on Lebron.

The 2014 Spurs team was absolutely dominant in those finals. They were clicking on all cylinders, it was incredible to watch. They won the last 3 games by 20 points each, give or take. Miami didn't belong on the same court as them. Zach Lowe has mentioned being in the Miami locker room after the series ended, and normally the losing team is in mourning, you know, but there was almost a sense of relief for Miami, like they knew they were totally outclassed.

I'm not going to read the last few pages, but if people think this series is in any way a knock on Lebron, man, I dunno what to tell you. He played 45:37 last night, the Cavs were a +7 in those minutes. So they were -12 in the 2:23 he sat. That's hard to fathom

 

[Melancer46]

Kyrie is one of the best "below the rim" finishing guards the league has ever had IMO. The creative finishes around the rim that he routinely makes are incredible.

I honestly think Steph might be a better finisher. They're both pretty incredible. Isaiah is up there too, especially considering he's like 5 feet tall.

For their careers:
Steph: 64.4% at the rim
Kyrie: 59.5% at the rim
Isaiah: 61.3% at the rim

 

[OttoinGrotto]

As it pertains to this year, I think you kinda just shrug. Warriors too good.
But don't think for a second that they will resign to being 2nd best next year. They will make some moves.
Makes me wonder where this team would be with Andrew Wiggins, who is still on his rookie contract mind you.

Part of the reason why I give LeBron such a hard time is because I was really excited to see what "LeBron and the Kids" could become.

But no, instead they trade for Love, one of my all-time least favorite players (although to his credit he played like he really cared last night) and bring in a bunch of LeBron's buddies/give extensions to guys they had no business doing that for (people forget the horrible Sideshow Bob contract) and trade away all of their picks for role players.

Again, it worked. They have the championship banner to prove it. But I hate everything about how they went about it.

 

[jordoo]

Don't forget singlehandedly blowing up their defensive rotations to give up a wide open 3 during that sequence too. Shumpert did a ton of damage to the Cavs chances in that last minute of the quarter.

That coincided with Lebron resting. Take Lebron off the Cavs and they are just another eastern conference playoff team going nowhere.

 

[Melancer46]

So does anybody become the scapegoat in Cleveland after the series? Or is this just a "meh, it's the Warriors" thing and Cleveland resigns themselves to being 2nd best?

I suspect that Love or Tristan are traded. My guess would be Love just due to the return you can get for him. You can't have so much of you cap space taken up by two guys that you aren't even playing together anymore. If they think the Tristan/Love combo doesn't work against Golden State, which it appears they believe, they need to trade one of them for a two-way wing. A guy like Khris Middleton would be absolutely perfect for this team (not that they could get him from Milwaukee).

 

[jordoo]

I'm not going to read the last few pages, but if people think this series is in any way a knock on Lebron, man, I dunno what to tell you. He played 45:37 last night, the Cavs were a +7 in those minutes. So they were -12 in the 2:23 he sat. That's hard to fathom

Yep and you could see it easily. Its shocking how outclassed the Cavs are without Lebron on the court.

 

[Knicks411]

Yep and you could see it easily. Its shocking how outclassed the Cavs are without Lebron on the court.

I think part of it was a fluke (obviously, -12 in 2 minutes is ridiculous, even as good as the Warriors are); Steph nailed back to back threes, which could happen at any time, but the point remains the same.

I think the Love trade was the right move for them; Wiggins has been ok, I guess? And he's basically had no pressure on him in Minnesota; he would be under the microscope a million times more in Cleveland than Minnesota and I think there's every chance his development would have been stunted a little by that.

The biggest knock you can make on the moves they made, I think, is their reliance on vets seemingly everywhere. Deron Williams is toast, Jefferson may also be. The Warriors have given minutes to Ian Clark and McCaw; not a ton, but maybe the Cavs would have been better off giving a shot to some younger guys with more athleticism.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I think part of it was a fluke (obviously, -12 in 2 minutes is ridiculous, even as good as the Warriors are); Steph nailed back to back threes, which could happen at any time, but the point remains the same.

I think the Love trade was the right move for them; Wiggins has been ok, I guess? And he's basically had no pressure on him in Minnesota; he would be under the microscope a million times more in Cleveland than Minnesota and I think there's every chance his development would have been stunted a little by that.

The biggest knock you can make on the moves they made, I think, is their reliance on vets seemingly everywhere. Deron Williams is toast, Jefferson may also be. The Warriors have given minutes to Ian Clark and McCaw; not a ton, but maybe the Cavs would have been better off giving a shot to some younger guys with more athleticism.

Sure, where were they going to get those young guys from though? G-Leaguers?

 

[Knicks411]

Sure, where were they going to get those young guys from though? G-Leaguers?

Yeah, maybe take a flyer on one of those guys? They had Kay Felder for instance. Lebron tired of him pretty quickly. Obviously, the odds aren't great of hitting on that.

They basically traded Tyus Jones for Rak and a draft and stash. Maybe give Tyus Jones more of a shot? I dunno.

 

[RF2044]

I think part of it was a fluke (obviously, -12 in 2 minutes is ridiculous, even as good as the Warriors are); Steph nailed back to back threes, which could happen at any time, but the point remains the same.

I think the Love trade was the right move for them; Wiggins has been ok, I guess? And he's basically had no pressure on him in Minnesota; he would be under the microscope a million times more in Cleveland than Minnesota and I think there's every chance his development would have been stunted a little by that.

The biggest knock you can make on the moves they made, I think, is their reliance on vets seemingly everywhere. Deron Williams is toast, Jefferson may also be. The Warriors have given minutes to Ian Clark and McCaw; not a ton, but maybe the Cavs would have been better off giving a shot to some younger guys with more athleticism.

They're in the classic veteran playoff team trap. Rookies don't really help them, draft picks don't really help them. Because generally speaking, they want guys who can plug and play and defend, and who aren't going to wilt under the pressure of the playoffs. Right, wrong, or indifferent -- rookies can't be counted upon for any of those things [I'm not suggesting that there aren't rookies out there who aren't capable of doing so]. They're also not drafting at a spot at the end of the first round where they are likely to get surefire contributors.

So, you hope to catch lightning in a bottle with older, proven vets -- some of whom are willing to play for less money. They absolutely caught lightning in a bottle LAST year with Richard Jefferson. Ditto that scrub from Rutgers / Duke, who had the one big game in the finals. Deron Williams wouldn't play on 90% of the teams in the league, but the Cavs were hoping that he'd have a bit of gas left in the tank.

Problem is, those guys are getting exposed because there isn't the same type of dropoff when the Warriors go to their second unit.

I think that the main move you can criticize is trading Wiggins -- that might have been shortsighted, but I absolutely get why the Cavs did it. And they might contend that winning it all last year made it worth it, even if Wiggins goes on to be a star in the league.