Class of 2014 - Ja'Quan Newton | Page 7 | Syracusefan.com

Class of 2014 Ja'Quan Newton

coming late to the thread, it seems to me that Oakland just wants us to acknowledge 2 points:

1. SU is not a "selector" school and it does not get all of it's Plan A recruits. I think this is a non-controversial statement. However, any implication that there is always some kind of drastic dropoff between Plan A and Plan B (or even Plan C) does not necessarily follow, especially given the second point he wants acknowledged

2. Our recent "5 Star" recruits have under-performed. This is where it gets confusing to me. If the "Plan A, 5 Star" recruits are under-performing, but the team is still averaging 30 wins per year and making deep tourney runs, then aren't the Plan B and C kids necessarily over- performing? And doesn't that mean that either there is no substantial drop off between As and Bs, or that the staff is recruiting for the system, focusing on player types rather than player rankings?

I also think that the "5 star under-performance" claim needs to be unpacked. The star ratings are arbitrary. For the most part, the various services just give each of the top 25 players 5 stars, then 26 through 100 get 4 stars, and so on. In other words, not all 5 stars are created equal. Using the consensus rankings at RSCI, the recent Orange stars have been ranked

18 - DC
21 - Roc
24 - MCW
14 - Fab

all in the lower half, most in the lower third, half of them in the last quintile. These are not the sure fire studs that you find ranked in the top 5 of each class. Just like the NBA lottery, if you are picking between 14 and 25, you might get a good player, but it is far from a sure thing. I think Oakland literally has stars in his eyes. He sees "5 stars" and expects lotto talent performance. If these were top 5 or 10 type players, he would have a point, but our guys typically are closer to 4 stars than they are to lottery talent.

and, did #18 DC really "under-perform"? Look at some of the 5 star big men ranked ahead of him in that class

7 Kaleb Tarczewski 22mpg, 7ppg, 6 rpg
11 Grant Jerrett 18, 5 and 4
14 Cameron Ridley 16, 4 and 4
15 Brandon Ashley 20, 7 and 3
18 Dajuan Coleman 13, 5 and 4

this is not intended to bash you, Oakland, but hopefully to provide a little bit of clarity.
 
moqui said:
1. SU is not a "selector" school and it does not get all of it's Plan A recruits. I think this is a non-controversial statement. However, the implication that there is always some kind of drastic dropoff between Plan A and Plan B (or every Plan C) does not necessarily follow, especially given the second point he wants acknowledged
.
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First off, I appreciate the introduction of facts into the concept that bigs usually take a while.

I think your definition of a selector school eliminates all schools though. UK didn't get Wiggins. I don't think most people view it in such strict terms or they wouldn't use the term.

The Plan A/Option A concept also gets a little murky. I had always viewed these in tiers, to go down to an individual level is very difficult. And it is fluid. And most people do not include the mindset/mental fit, nor long term team fit. For instance, the example of BJ comes to mind. To me, his potential in '15-'16 is enormous.

To bring it back to the OP, the rise in Newton could be putting him in the tier of KJ2 and the Isiahs. If he shows the mindset of being able to wait for his turn and the other commonly higher ranked players don't (ie the Isiahs), do you get to factor that into the Option/Plan concept? It seems to be kind of a mutual parting of ways if some players are looking for immediate PT and SU is not guaranteeing it.

I think an indicator in our rise in recruiting is in the type of player we are getting who seem to understand the possibility of having to pay their dues (maybe MCW, Grant, Roberson). If that mindset is available in Newton or KJ2, I think they would be more valuable than a higher ranked recruit (IW) who can not handle that possibility. If the staff feels that way, did we really lose out if IW goes elsewhere?
 
Sgt Cuse said:
First off, I appreciate the introduction of facts into the concept that bigs usually take a while.

I think your definition of a selector school eliminates all schools though. UK didn't get Wiggins. I don't think most people view it in such strict terms or they wouldn't use the term.
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hell, they even lost out to us on DC2

of course, no one is a selector school in that it gets all of its targets, but I don't think it is controversial to say that SU gets, say 50% of their primary targets while Kentucky, Kansas, UNC get 60% (these numbers are made up, just for illustration purposes). JB recruits at a very high level, but I think it is clear that he is one step below those three schools in particular (and so is Rick Pitino, mind you, so that is not at all a bad place to be).

I think an indicator in our rise in recruiting is in the type of player we are getting who seem to understand the possibility of having to pay their dues (maybe MCW, Grant, Roberson). If that mindset is available in Newton or KJ2, I think they would be more valuable than a higher ranked recruit (IW) who can not handle that possibility. If the staff feels that way, did we really lose out if IW goes elsewhere?
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yep . . . people seem to think that landing a top level talent = a Carmelo type run. Let's not forget that the only consensus Top 10 player that SU has landed post Carmelo was #8 Donte Greene - a one-and-done who led the team . . . to the NIT quarterfinals.

Since Donte left, JB has averaged 30 wins a year, the third greatest total in the nation behind only Duke and Kansas, earned 2 #1 seeds (and protected seeds for 5 consecutive years), advanced to the Sweet 16 4 times in 5 years including back to back trips beyond that level.

So, while if you judge recruiting by the average star rating of the recruits, or by how those recruits' individual freshman performances rate according to high expectations, or by number of high NBA draft picks, then sure, you can say we are under-performing.

Me? I think I'll take the metrics of third most total wins in the nation, high seeds in the NCAA tourney and deep tournament runs. Call me simple, call me foolish, but that's how I am judging it.
 
Telep on Newton's Peach Jam performance:

"Earlier this week at the LeBron James Skills Academy, two of the top guys at their respective positions were power forward Angel Delgado and combo guard Ja'Quan Newton. Delgado has been among the best -- if not the best -- rebounders at the Peach Jam after leading the Nike EYBL in rebounding this spring. Newton, meanwhile, put his team on his back Friday morning and scored 30 points."

"Newton scored 30 on the same court following Delgado’s game. You can’t over-evaluate Newton. He’s not a true point guard and he doesn’t play off the ball or come off screens like a traditional 2-guard. He dribbles it and scores it -- simple as that. He shot 17 free throws Friday morning, a sign of his aggressive tendencies to the rim, and high school kids have a difficult time staying in front of him. If you play a plethora of guards, you pair him with a true decision-maker and turn him loose.

Miami, Villanova, Minnesota, USC, Oregon, Seton Hall and Temple want him."
 
Francis03 said:
No school in the country gets all of their option A's as you call it and I never implied that we do. You gave me a list of names and I broke down their recruitments to you to the best of my knowledge. In 2013 we only lost out on one player that we had a realistic chance at and that was Rysheed Jordan as I mentioned. Obviously you view Option A as one main player at certain position and everybody else after that is B, C, etc correct? The way I view who the main targets are(forget about option A, B, C stuff). Is how hard the staff goes after a recruit for example keeping constant contact throughout, attending their games/workout, scheduling campus/home visits, and when the final college decision is being made that SU is a serious contender and not just a courtesy name drop. The players that you asked about Wiggins, Randle, Johnson, and Young were either players that we hardly recruited or was just longshots to land which I had explained before.

Since you want to research this Vonleh stuff let me repeat to you again what happened. Yes they were one of the first schools to get involve with him several years ago. Something happened behind the scenes and even Vonleh stated in interviews last spring that he wasn't getting calls from SU anymore. Seems like a strange way to treat our option A huh? Anyway as I noted before, in this recruiting game coaches in some cases especially when dealing with a high profile recruit, will have to deal with shady coaches, handlers, and paranoid parents/family members. Obviously something went down after the early advances in the Vonleh recruitment that made them back off and lose interest. When he reclassified he put out feelers to SU, UNC, and Ohio St that he was interested in visiting but with his brother at IU, everybody pretty much knew that they were going to be hard to beat. SU's pursuit of him this time around was modest at because they had already landed Roberson and BJ, who they obviously valued as main options even though you may not feel that way. Yes we have lost out on guys that we have really wanted like Noel, Tobias Harris, Ant Davis, and most likely Isaiah Briscoe. Point is you asked me about 2013 and listed a bunch of names that we were never really in the mix for, and when I detailed it with facts you then decided to respond in an unnecessary immature manner and interpret things the way that you see it. If you feel a certain way about whether we land option A or B recruits then that's fine because you're entitled to your own opinion, but that doesn't mean other members on the board and myself have to agree.
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Thank you.
 
Yeah, as Moqui indicated the star ratings are mostly malarkey as far as I'm concerned. Otto Porter wasn't a high recruit because his parents pulled him from the AAU circuses. Oladipo, Hardaway Jr., Burke, and Rak in the opposite direction are examples of mis-representations by the recruitniks.
 
SoBeCuse said:
Yeah, as Moqui indicated the star ratings are mostly malarkey as far as I'm concerned. Otto Porter wasn't a high recruit because his parents pulled him from the AAU circuses. Oladipo, Hardaway Jr., Burke, and Rak in the opposite direction are examples of mis-representations by the recruitniks.
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Michigan.
 
SoBeCuse said:
Yeah, as Moqui indicated the star ratings are mostly malarkey as far as I'm concerned. Otto Porter wasn't a high recruit because his parents pulled him from the AAU circuses. Oladipo, Hardaway Jr., Burke, and Rak in the opposite direction are examples of mis-representations by the recruitniks.
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Otto Porter was a top 40 recruit, and he was only ranked outside the top 20 because they scouts didn't see enough of his game. But they all raved about him. More likely than not, the high ranked recruits make it to the NBA over the lower ranked ones, if anything just based on potential and hype.
 
Looks like talk has cooled with "package deal"
Quote from Newton

There are a bunch of rumors about you and Isaiah ganging up and heading to the same college? Is that real? We’re thinking about it right now. We’re just thinking. We might go there, we might not. And if it happens that we go there, we go there.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/215703041.html
He does mention Syracuse as recruiting both though, as a package. Found that interesting.

What are the schools mutually recruiting you guys? Miami, SMU, Minnesota of course, Syracuse, USC, Seton Hall, Temple, Villanova …
 
Francis03 said:
Newton's EYBL Peach Jam overall averages. 7 games-16.4ppg, 5.2apg, 3.2rpg, 33% 3pt 6-18 overall, 72%ft 37-51 overall.
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Have we officially offered him?
 
With regards to this "package deal" fiasco, it really appears that the staff is much, much higher on K-Jo than on Newton. I feel as though the staff is willing to let both walk and snag Joseph, rather than take Newton. That's just my take. I'd be thrilled to get a competitor like Joseph. But at the same time, I'd be sad to see talent like Whitehead walk off. It's probably for the best with a kid like Whitehead, though.

Sorry for rambling.
 
TacoTime75 said:
With regards to this "package deal" fiasco, it really appears that the staff is much, much higher on K-Jo than on Newton. I feel as though the staff is willing to let both walk and snag Joseph, rather than take Newton. That's just my take. I'd be thrilled to get a competitor like Joseph. But at the same time, I'd be sad to see talent like Whitehead walk off. It's probably for the best with a kid like Whitehead, though.

Sorry for rambling.
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We all said Dion had an ego problem and I didn't really mind having him here. I don't know why everyone makes a big deal about Whitehead's ego. When your the top player in New York City, you should think highly of yourself. If you don't believe your the best, you most likely won't be the best.
 
If the both decide to join SU before Joseph decides he wants to make a decision then you take what you can get. You don't wait and hope you take the guarantees.
 
Agree.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If Joseph were a strong Cuse lean he would have verballed to nullify our Newton/Whitehead offer. Kids know who has offers and from where.
 
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