JB: "No end game strategy."

[pfister1]

Why is Jim seemingly the only coach who has to answer to this b.s. question?

They don’t ask Coach K this crap...

Might also have to do with the fact that there was a “drop dead” retirement date in place, a coach in waiting and a succession plan, having nothing to do with him being 103 years old, at the school since the school colors included pink and may have been the coach that successfully taught Wilmet Sadat-Singh the two handed set shot.

 

[tbonezone]

there are like 5 D1 coaches who are 70 or older including 2 others in the ACC. So why do folks here Harper on it ?

you mean like harper lee ?

 

[pfister1]

there are like 5 D1 coaches who are 70 or older including 2 others in the ACC. So why do folks here Harper on it ?

you mean like harper lee ?

Pretty sure he meant why are people Bryce Harpering on it.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Pretty sure he meant why are people Bryce Harpering on it.

 

[obliterata]

Why is Jim seemingly the only coach who has to answer to this b.s. question?

As I once pointed out, there are like 5 D1 coaches who are 70 or older including 2 others in the ACC. So why do folks here Harper on it?

Because he's the only coach who announced when he was going to retire......and didn't.

 

[NateW]

Because he's the only coach who announced when he was going to retire...and didn't.

He got it before hand

 

[NKR1978]

Opened this hoping it would contain JB's thoughts on the Avengers .

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I drove past the other day coming home from work and there was an ambulance or two there. Not sure if it was another fight or food poisoning.

You think it was either or?

 

[SBU72]

Because he's the only coach who announced when he was going to retire...and didn't.

So why does that make his age a problem for him and not the others.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

the question I would most have on my mind if I were being recruited by the Cuse ISNT about the tenure of the coach..it would center around having enough food to feed the players since they are all so skinny.

 

[obliterata]

So why does that make his age a problem for him and not the others.

His age isn't the problem, the problem is he said when he was going to retire and then he failed to do so. No other current coach regardless of age - 40/50/60/70 - gave a time frame of when they were calling it quits and then continued coaching. Not that I know of anyway.

Nowadays if a high profile person holds a press conference and says they're going to do something and then they don't, they can expect to be questioned about it.

 

[Townie72]

His age isn't the problem, the problem is he said when he was going to retire and then he failed to do so. No other current coach regardless of age - 40/50/60/70 - gave a time frame of when they were calling it quits and then continued coaching. Not that I know of anyway.

Nowadays if a high profile person holds a press conference and says they're going to do something and then they don't, they can expect to be questioned about it.

Let's say that you and your wife decide to sell your house and move to Florida. As part of that move, you put an ad in the paper offering to sell your refrigerator.

But after going to Florida and seeing the place and the traffic and the bugs and the daily rain, you both decide to stay back in CNY.

Is your regrigerator still for sale? And why not?

What you are missing here is that the situation has completely changed since there was a time frame in place for JB's retirement.

What you are doing is cherry-picking one piece of an agreement from an earlier period. Once Hopkins left, the time frame went out the window because the time frame was part of a larger plan.

The key to understanding the current situation is a fair look at the history.

Back when Hopkins was the Associate Head Coach, JB wanted to keep him. So as part of the deal to do this --- along with an expanded set of responsibilities, a title and a significant amount of money --- JB said that he planned to retire and even set a tentative date.

Then Hopkins took the Washington job. And the circumstances surrounding this don't
matter in the contest of this discussion. What does matter is that JB's planned retirement date went out the window when Hopkins left.

That "time frame" is a vestigial part of an older plan and has little, if any, relevance to the current situation.

Oh, and when can I come by to get that refrigerator you once said you were selling?

 

[pfister1]

Let's say that you and your wife decide to sell your house and move to Florida. As part of that move, you put an ad in the paper offering to sell your refrigerator.

But after going to Florida and seeing the place and the traffic and the bugs and the daily rain, you both decide to stay back in CNY.

Is your regrigerator still for sale? And why not?

What you are missing here is that the situation has completely changed since there was a time frame in place for JB's retirement.

What you are doing is cherry-picking one piece of an agreement from an earlier period. Once Hopkins left, the time frame went out the window because the time frame was part of a larger plan.

The key to understanding the current situation is a fair look at the history.

Back when Hopkins was the Associate Head Coach, JB wanted to keep him. So as part of the deal to do this --- along with an expanded set of responsibilities, a title and a significant amount of money --- JB said that he planned to retire and even set a tentative date.

Then Hopkins took the Washington job. And the circumstances surrounding this don't
matter in the contest of this discussion. What does matter is that JB's planned retirement date went out the window when Hopkins left.

That "time frame" is a vestigial part of an older plan and has little, if any, relevance to the current situation.

Oh, and when can I come by to get that refrigerator you once said you were selling?

Great analogy, but what does it have to do with the reality that there is a very public perception among the people asking the questions that JB is on the cusp of retirement. Saying it isn't an issue, doesn't prevent it from being an issue.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Let’s be clear, no one cares about JB’s age they care about the lack of results on the floor, a really not fun product to watch, a program which seems to be constantly in disarray and teams where chemistry is an issue year after year. If JB was running a top 4 ACC program that competed for the title year after year and was a top 4 seed every year and played a brand of ball that was fun to watch he could coach till I retire for all I care.

Coach K doesn’t get asked because he is bringing on elite talent, his teams are always fun to watch and he generally makes the elite 8. The next guy there is not going to do better and even the most fanatic, idiotic Dukie knows that.

 

[Townie72]

Great analogy, but what does it have to do with the reality that there is a very public perception among the people asking the questions that JB is on the cusp of retirement. Saying it isn't an issue, doesn't prevent it from being an issue.

I don't know how you deal with "public perception" that JB is on the cusp of retirement.

Everything I have read or heard from Boeheim's or Wildhack's lips are that JB is in this for at least a couple of more years. That Buddy will be through in three years seems to have been adopted by some as a logical time. But until I hear it from JB or JW, it's just more baseless conjecture.

I get why reporter's are asking the question. They are hungry for a scoop.

Fans who ask are curious, but some are anxious for it to happen.

That latter group is suffering from what I will call "Post Boeheim Delusion Syndrome" or PBDS.

The principle components of PBDS are:

1. A belief that the problems of the SU BB program --- what's holding us back from the greatness of some of the past --- are primarily based on JB's intransigence, dumb strategies, recruiting deficiencies, sloth, senility, bullying of players and rudeness to the local Press.

2. A belief that with JB out of the way, we can identify, attract and hire a far superior coach with a style of play they like and who will be able to attract better players than the ones we have been.

Now if you believe #1 and #2, you are probably dying to know the answer to the question about retirement.

Even if you just believe #1, you might be interested in JB retiring because even if #2 is a little flakey, at least it gives us a chance at greatness.

 

[Horn88]

I don't know how you deal with "public perception" that JB is on the cusp of retirement.

Everything I have read or heard from Boeheim's or Wildhack's lips are that JB is in this for at least a couple of more years. That Buddy will be through in three years seems to have been adopted by some as a logical time. But until I hear it from JB or JW, it's just more baseless conjecture.

I get why reporter's are asking the question. They are hungry for a scoop.

Fans who ask are curious, but some are anxious for it to happen.

That latter group is suffering from what I will call "Post Boeheim Delusion Syndrome" or PBDS.

The principle components of PBDS are:

1. A belief that the problems of the SU BB program --- what's holding us back from the greatness of some of the past --- are primarily based on JB's intransigence, dumb strategies, recruiting deficiencies, sloth, senility, bullying of players and rudeness to the local Press.

2. A belief that with JB out of the way, we can identify, attract and hire a far superior coach with a style of play they like and who will be able to attract better players than the ones we have been.

Now if you believe #1 and #2, you are probably dying to know the answer to the question about retirement.

Even if you just believe #1, you might be interested in JB retiring because even if #2 is a little flakey, at least it gives us a chance at greatness.

I have no idea who we find to replace JB. I think we're a very appealing program but at the same time think many really underestimate how hard it is to hire a good coach let alone a great one.

At the same time though, I think it's reasonable to be skeptical that the version of JB in his mid to late 70's is still the same coach that he was when he was younger and will be able to run the program at levels we've seen in the past. People aren't questioning the JB from 10-20 years ago, they're questioning that JB can be the first person to defeat Father Time and not slow down as he gets deeper into his 70's when there's already evidence to suggest it's started.

 

[Townie72]

I have no idea who we find to replace JB. I think we're a very appealing program but at the same time think many really underestimate how hard it is to hire a good coach let alone a great one.

At the same time though, I think it's reasonable to be skeptical that the version of JB in his mid to late 70's is still the same coach that he was when he was younger and will be able to run the program at levels we've seen in the past. People aren't questioning the JB from 10-20 years ago, they're questioning that JB can be the first person to defeat Father Time and not slow down as he gets deeper into his 70's when there's already evidence to suggest it's started.

Or stated another way, your point is that the current version of JB just isn't up to the task. Of course, you don't know that. It's just your opinion.

And, even if that were true, it could easily be that JB at 80% (or some percentage) is better than a replacement would be at 100% because of all the accumulated wisdom and insight.

We will see what happens. But my guess would be that after JB leaves the program will struggle for a couple of years. Coach K. said it best when he said that he hoped the SU fan base appreciates what it has.

 

[cusebuzza]

Let’s be clear, no one cares about JB’s age they care about the lack of results on the floor, a really not fun product to watch, a program which seems to be constantly in disarray and teams where chemistry is an issue year after year. If JB was running a top 4 ACC program that competed for the title year after year and was a top 4 seed every year and played a brand of ball that was fun to watch he could coach till I retire for all I care.

Coach K doesn’t get asked because he is bringing on elite talent, his teams are always fun to watch and he generally makes the elite 8. The next guy there is not going to do better and even the most fanatic, idiotic Dukie knows that.

I second that. It’s more about the results that are irking people, than JB still coaching. We need to make it back to one of those periods of great success. Otherwise, I’m sure people in the Athletic Department will be calling for JB’s head

 

[cusebuzza]

Recruits are going to start to look the other way at creating a “super team” at Duke, IMO. Sure, K is the winningest coach in college basketball history, and sure he could be what some people say the “GOAT”. But in terms of getting the most out of his team year after year? That’s not one of his strengths. Sure you could attribute the struggles of Duke this year to Cam Reddish’s somewhat inability to seem to play good basketball, or RJ Barrett’s sense that he needs to play hero, but at the end of the day he had the top 3 recruits in the country playing on the court all at once. That alone should be a berth in the NC game. He’s lucky they made it to the Elite 8, as in my eyes they should have lost to UCF. Recruits are recruits though, and I guess the prospects of playing at the “brotherhood” are greater than actually competing for an NC at Virginia, Nova, Cuse, Michigan State, etc.

 

[Horn88]

Or stated another way, your point is that the current version of JB just isn't up to the task. Of course, you don't know that. It's just your opinion.

And, even if that were true, it could easily be that JB at 80% (or some percentage) is better than a replacement would be at 100% because of all the accumulated wisdom and insight.

We will see what happens. But my guess would be that after JB leaves the program will struggle for a couple of years. Coach K. said it best when he said that he hoped the SU fan base appreciates what it has.

And of course you don't know that the program is going to struggle for a couple years after JB leaves. It's just your opinion.

Again, I don't think it's a big jump to think that when an individual in any profession starts to climb into their mid to late 70's that they start to decline in performance. The last 5 seasons we have averaged ~14 losses a year and are .500 in conference play. Seasons like those aren't how JB became a hall of famer or how he's had the career he's had, but that's who we are now. So when you compare JB versus a replacement that's the performance we're comparing because those are the results JB is currently yielding. Not his performance from the past great runs, and I think there are a good pool of coaches that would be comparable or better to the current performance.

Coach K was 100% right that SU's fan base should appreciate what JB has done for this program.

 

[Sherman20]

Let's say that you and your wife decide to sell your house and move to Florida. As part of that move, you put an ad in the paper offering to sell your refrigerator.

But after going to Florida and seeing the place and the traffic and the bugs and the daily rain, you both decide to stay back in CNY.

Is your regrigerator still for sale? And why not?

What you are missing here is that the situation has completely changed since there was a time frame in place for JB's retirement.

What you are doing is cherry-picking one piece of an agreement from an earlier period. Once Hopkins left, the time frame went out the window because the time frame was part of a larger plan.

The key to understanding the current situation is a fair look at the history.

Back when Hopkins was the Associate Head Coach, JB wanted to keep him. So as part of the deal to do this --- along with an expanded set of responsibilities, a title and a significant amount of money --- JB said that he planned to retire and even set a tentative date.

Then Hopkins took the Washington job. And the circumstances surrounding this don't
matter in the contest of this discussion. What does matter is that JB's planned retirement date went out the window when Hopkins left.

That "time frame" is a vestigial part of an older plan and has little, if any, relevance to the current situation.

Oh, and when can I come by to get that refrigerator you once said you were selling?

“Back when Hopkins was the Associate Head Coach, JB wanted to keep him. So as part of the deal to do this --- along with an expanded set of responsibilities, a title and a significant amount of money --- JB said that he planned to retire and even set a tentative date.”

This is not accurate, Townie, about the setting of JB’s retirement date. That was an agreement that JB and Syverud came to as a result of the sanctions.

You’re conflating two different developments. In the early 2010s, JB did previously make Hop associate HC, gave him a raise, etc and made him the head coach designate in order to fend off questions from recruits about his possible retirement. This happened when Gross was still AD. The idea was that JB could point to Hop and say, if I do retire before you leave, this guy will be your head coach. JB also wanted to guarantee Hop to have the job when he did decide to retire.

That all changed once the sanctions hit in March 2015 and the university was looking to save face from the bad publicity and JB’s second set of NCAA violations (I don’t think the violations were severe but the media perception was otherwise b/c of the NCAA’s public flogging). Hop then became the official head coach designate and he and the school signed an agreement for Hop to take over after the 2017-2018 season when JB retired.

 

[Chip]

I wish he’s say oh I don’t know maybe 1 or 2 more years, who knows, while simultaneously capturing Autry, GMac and Griffen’s faces on the recruiting trail.

 

[Townie72]

“Back when Hopkins was the Associate Head Coach, JB wanted to keep him. So as part of the deal to do this --- along with an expanded set of responsibilities, a title and a significant amount of money --- JB said that he planned to retire and even set a tentative date.”

This is not accurate, Townie, about the setting of JB’s retirement date. That was an agreement that JB and Syverud came to as a result of the sanctions.

You’re conflating two different developments. In the early 2010s, JB did previously make Hop associate HC, gave him a raise, etc and made him the head coach designate in order to fend off questions from recruits about his possible retirement. This happened when Gross was still AD. The idea was that JB could point to Hop and say, if I do retire before you leave, this guy will be your head coach. JB also wanted to guarantee Hop to have the job when he did decide to retire.

That all changed once the sanctions hit in March 2015 and the university was looking to save face from the bad publicity and JB’s second set of NCAA violations (I don’t think the violations were severe but the media perception was otherwise b/c of the NCAA’s public flogging). Hop then became the official head coach designate and he and the school signed an agreement for Hop to take over after the 2017-2018 season when JB retired.

The point that was made was that it was OK --- open season --- on asking about retirement because since JB had once announced a date he must now answer questions ad nauseum. (Which he isn't going to do, btw) I tried to point out that the date-certain for retiring was tied up in the Hopkins deal. And that when Hopkins left it voided the whole deal, not part of it.

 

[tbonezone]

you mean like harper lee ?

yes but the allegory was also bit about the clear remorse and anguish of atticus finch of having to put down an old beloved rabid dog before his time for the good and safety of the community. not an easy shot to take.
or perhaps i'm reading too much into this reference of america's favorite novel.

 

[Townie72]

And of course you don't know that the program is going to struggle for a couple years after JB leaves. It's just your opinion.

Again, I don't think it's a big jump to think that when an individual in any profession starts to climb into their mid to late 70's that they start to decline in performance. The last 5 seasons we have averaged ~14 losses a year and are .500 in conference play. Seasons like those aren't how JB became a hall of famer or how he's had the career he's had, but that's who we are now. So when you compare JB versus a replacement that's the performance we're comparing because those are the results JB is currently yielding. Not his performance from the past great runs, and I think there are a good pool of coaches that would be comparable or better to the current performance.

Coach K was 100% right that SU's fan base should appreciate what JB has done for this program.

Have you noticed any connection between the performance in the last five years and our entry into the ACC, the impact of NCAA sanctions and players unexpectedly leaving early or not coming at all? Could it be that JB's aging has nothing to do with this? Or that given all that has gone on it would be impossible to figure out how much of this downturn in record is due to JB at all?

Seems to me in watching these coaching changes, they all follow the same pattern. When Gary Williams was retiring, the boosters identified the ideal candidate ... Mike Brey. A DC area guy with ties to DeMatha high school. How could he not be interested? (He wasn't.)

The Georgetown people wanted Shaka Smart. (He wouldn't return their phone call.)

I think the job is much less attractive than some on here. The biggest barrier coming in is re-tooling the team from the JB approach to a different one. Unless we get someone who is a JB -clone (and we might so that) we are going to have a significant period of transition until the new coach gets his system installed and recruits the players to run it.

Then there's the recruiting problem as JB gets in the last year or two and cannot tell recruits hen is going to be here for their entire career.

Then there's the ACC problem. Can we catch UNC or Duke? Or will a coach coming in be faced with a ceiling of finishing third or fourth in the ACC best case?