JB responds to Gottlieb comment | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

JB responds to Gottlieb comment

If you consistently win 75% of your games with rosters with few future NBA players that indicates a really good coach. Anyone can win with a roster full of future NBA greats...makes it LESS of an accomplishment.


But according to zelda and gottlieb jb takes a hit for not DEVELOPING them into nba stars. Cuz we all know if lawrence moten played for calipari he"d be in his 17th season in the nba. And if eric devendorf went to north carolina he'd be a 3 time nba all star by now. And paul harris would be the next barkley if he went to duke.

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I don't mind Gottlieb as an analyst, but i don't care for him as a 'person' or as a 'journalist.' He has a bias and an agenda and neither of them serve objectivity. That said, i wholeheartedly agree with what he's saying, but only in part because of his four-part outline.

I think you're judged on other matters, but whatever. No 1 — sure, that's valid. But, 3 Championship Games is nothing to sneeze at. However, in 40 years, i'm underwhelmed by the number of Elite 8s.

No. 2 — I agree this is a consideration. A coach is charged with DEVELOPING players. And, if they come into a program at a certain level, and perhaps manage to contribute at a college level but do not progress beyond that, that is a fault in development. It's not enough that they are 'good enough' to help our system. Greatness implies a larger responsibility and capability.

No. 3 — No comment.

No. 4 — The matter is misstated. If your (winning) style is NOT replicable, that's a testament to your coaching. If it IS replicable, but no one chooses to replicate it, that's a knock on your coaching. Commentators love to talk about the 2-3 zone. Because it's a quick, easy talking-point. Doesn't mean any more than that, although the orange faithful lap it up like... like Cream Ale. Boeheim is NOT smarter than everyone else. Even if he were, everyone else is still smart enough to copy something that works. That's why every phone looks like an iPhone now.

The reason we've won 'so many games' isn't because of the zone. Unless you consider that JB seems to have forgotten how to coach man, so maybe it is because of the zone... The reason we win, when we win, is because we have more talent than the opposition on 95% of game days. I don't think this is even remotely debatable. And, yet, we don't win 95% of games. So, there's that.

No. 5 — There is a need to define "great," as JB noted. How many coaches have been "great?" In any case, i don't put JB there. He doesn't transform, like a Brad Stevens. He doesn't overcome. He doesn't motivate. What he does well is put enough good players in orange uniforms, and then minimize his coaching responsibilities. Fewer plays. He says it's because we can't remember more plays. Everyone else does, though... Zone. Because the other kids can't shoot. Until they do, and Joe Nobody puts in 8 catch-and-shoot 3s against us. But, we win that game, because it was against. 8 Joe Nobodies, and commentators and fans say, yeah, Joe 1 went nuts, but we wanted that, and we contained everyone else. All the other Nobodies couldn't beat our McD players... You give JB a team of non-top 50 players — even guys who play his style, and have his reputed "body type" — and he doesn't win with them.

No. 6 — Everyone ignores the power of the Dome and/or contrives an invalid causal relationship between JB's success and the Dome. JB would not have been nearly as successful if we played in a 12,000 seat, typical gym. Period. His recruiting and consistency and resulting longevity are all tied into the allure of the Dome. Success follows and self-perpetuates, but only in the shadow of The Dome. We had a name with Manley, certainly. But, it would take a lot of fingers and toes to count the number of programs that had 'names' at one point, but could not sustain it. We surely would have fallen into that category without the 30k.

No. 7 — Everyone seems to have a short memory. It was only a few years ago that we ended a significant streak of being on the NCAA bubble. "Will we get in?"

Nothing legendary about this Zelda.
 
Gottlieb generally is a very strong analyst.
But he's shoveling here.
Two of his four criteria make no sense for judging collegiate coaching success.

Gottlieb is not a strong analyst. He generally says nothing that I agree with about Syracuse or anything in general. I wish we could all stop talking about him because it's what allows him to keep getting paid. Also for the record is a complete piece of in real life and so is his brother who is a coach at Cal and his father who coaches an AAU team. His father is an AAU coach and he goes into parents living rooms and tells them he will sell them as a D1 kid even if they are not and he charges a price to parents. He has a price for D1 and D2. Then he trys to convince assistant coaches that kids are D1 kids when the entire staff knows he is completely full of and the kid has D2 talent. That way he makes more money which is all he cares about. I have heard this from 3 different assistant coaches I know on the west coast. This just gives an idea of how despicable that entire family is.
 
Gottlieb generally is a very strong analyst.
But he's shoveling here.
Two of his four criteria make no sense for judging collegiate coaching success.

I think developing Nba talent should definitely be part of the criteria. Coaches are mentors, like teachers. Teachers' goals are to educate students, with the eventual goal of being successful at the next level, ie obtaining a job based on their field of study. I have some teachers that routinely check up on myself and fellow classmates to see what we are up to. It gives them satisfaction when students they helped educate are successful after school.
 
His ESPN Radio show was actually good... no idea how his new show on CBS is/will-be.

Just be prepared to see him in-studio during CBS' March Madness coverage.

Can't wait, as I'll be in Vegas for the opening weekend.
The Final Four is in town this year... keeping my fingers crossed. :)
 
All I know, as someone who started at SU in 1972 when JB was an assistant coach, until and through today, I have really enjoyed all of our basketball years. Winning, winning and winning. How many alums have that kind of continuous record, unbroken, at the schools they attended? We have been consistently good the whole time. Every year we either went to the NCAA tournament, or got screwed out of going to the NCAA tournament. Many of those years we have been in the top 25 for part or most of the season. I can't think of many other schools that fit this description...and that is why JB is a legend in the coaching ranks. Along with his 2/3 zone that other coaches study and none are able to quite duplicate. He is a genius at picking the players that fit his system. What else is there to say?
 
No. 2 — I agree this is a consideration. A coach is charged with DEVELOPING players. And, if they come into a program at a certain level, and perhaps manage to contribute at a college level but do not progress beyond that, that is a fault in development. It's not enough that they are 'good enough' to help our system. Greatness implies a larger responsibility and capability.

So Syracuse doesn't develop players now? Hakim Warrick didn't develop? Andy Rautins? Rick Jackson? Did you watch them play as freshmen?



No. 5 — You give JB a team of non-top 50 players — even guys who play his style, and have his reputed "body type" — and he doesn't win with them.

Only need to go back few years to dismiss this point. How many top 50 guys were in the starting lineup of that 30 win team in 2010?

No. 6 — Everyone ignores the power of the Dome and/or contrives an invalid causal relationship between JB's success and the Dome. JB would not have been nearly as successful if we played in a 12,000 seat, typical gym. Period. His recruiting and consistency and resulting longevity are all tied into the allure of the Dome. Success follows and self-perpetuates, but only in the shadow of The Dome. We had a name with Manley, certainly. But, it would take a lot of fingers and toes to count the number of programs that had 'names' at one point, but could not sustain it. We surely would have fallen into that category without the 30k.

If we didn't win, there'd be nobody in the Dome and nobody would care about it. If it's that easy, why doesn't everyone just build monstrous Dome's? Why doesn't Tulane just go play in the Superdome? Instant power program right? The Dome helps, and NOBODY ignores it's power that's just you doing what you do.

No. 7 — Everyone seems to have a short memory. It was only a few years ago that we ended a significant streak of being on the NCAA bubble. "Will we get in?"

Getting hung up on the worst 3 year stretch of his 37 year tenure? Why? How many times has he "been on the bubble" overall? 6 or 7? Why the tunnel vision on that blip on the radar era? And if "the bubble" is the absolute worst that it gets, then you've got a great program.
.
 
I think developing Nba talent should definitely be part of the criteria. Coaches are mentors, like teachers. Teachers' goals are to educate students, with the eventual goal of being successful at the next level, ie obtaining a job based on their field of study. I have some teachers that routinely check up on myself and fellow classmates to see what we are up to. It gives them satisfaction when students they helped educate are successful after school.
 
I am certainly not enough of an expert to judge what a great coach is, but i'm smart enough to know who i'd have on the panel that decides. What do the other coaches in the 900 club have to say about JB?
 
I think developing Nba talent should definitely be part of the criteria. Coaches are mentors, like teachers. Teachers' goals are to educate students, with the eventual goal of being successful at the next level, ie obtaining a job based on their field of study. I have some teachers that routinely check up on myself and fellow classmates to see what we are up to. It gives them satisfaction when students they helped educate are successful after school.

I would disagree a bit here. A college coach's job is to make players successful in college, win games, and stay employed since the school is signing his checks rather than the NBA.
 
I don't mind Gottlieb as an analyst, but i don't care for him as a 'person' or as a 'journalist.' He has a bias and an agenda and neither of them serve objectivity. That said, i wholeheartedly agree with what he's saying, but only in part because of his four-part outline.

I think you're judged on other matters, but whatever. No 1 — sure, that's valid. But, 3 Championship Games is nothing to sneeze at. However, in 40 years, i'm underwhelmed by the number of Elite 8s.

No. 2 — I agree this is a consideration. A coach is charged with DEVELOPING players. And, if they come into a program at a certain level, and perhaps manage to contribute at a college level but do not progress beyond that, that is a fault in development. It's not enough that they are 'good enough' to help our system. Greatness implies a larger responsibility and capability.

No. 3 — No comment.

No. 4 — The matter is misstated. If your (winning) style is NOT replicable, that's a testament to your coaching. If it IS replicable, but no one chooses to replicate it, that's a knock on your coaching. Commentators love to talk about the 2-3 zone. Because it's a quick, easy talking-point. Doesn't mean any more than that, although the orange faithful lap it up like... like Cream Ale. Boeheim is NOT smarter than everyone else. Even if he were, everyone else is still smart enough to copy something that works. That's why every phone looks like an iPhone now.

The reason we've won 'so many games' isn't because of the zone. Unless you consider that JB seems to have forgotten how to coach man, so maybe it is because of the zone... The reason we win, when we win, is because we have more talent than the opposition on 95% of game days. I don't think this is even remotely debatable. And, yet, we don't win 95% of games. So, there's that.

No. 5 — There is a need to define "great," as JB noted. How many coaches have been "great?" In any case, i don't put JB there. He doesn't transform, like a Brad Stevens. He doesn't overcome. He doesn't motivate. What he does well is put enough good players in orange uniforms, and then minimize his coaching responsibilities. Fewer plays. He says it's because we can't remember more plays. Everyone else does, though... Zone. Because the other kids can't shoot. Until they do, and Joe Nobody puts in 8 catch-and-shoot 3s against us. But, we win that game, because it was against. 8 Joe Nobodies, and commentators and fans say, yeah, Joe 1 went nuts, but we wanted that, and we contained everyone else. All the other Nobodies couldn't beat our McD players... You give JB a team of non-top 50 players — even guys who play his style, and have his reputed "body type" — and he doesn't win with them.

No. 6 — Everyone ignores the power of the Dome and/or contrives an invalid causal relationship between JB's success and the Dome. JB would not have been nearly as successful if we played in a 12,000 seat, typical gym. Period. His recruiting and consistency and resulting longevity are all tied into the allure of the Dome. Success follows and self-perpetuates, but only in the shadow of The Dome. We had a name with Manley, certainly. But, it would take a lot of fingers and toes to count the number of programs that had 'names' at one point, but could not sustain it. We surely would have fallen into that category without the 30k.

No. 7 — Everyone seems to have a short memory. It was only a few years ago that we ended a significant streak of being on the NCAA bubble. "Will we get in?"




Your comment about the Dome doesn't explain Boeheim winning 100 games in his first four years, when he had a center from Rochester and a skinny forward from Cinci, a kid from CBA at guard and a kid from the north country with curly hair.
 
I am happy that nobody has completely caught on to copy SU's 2-3 zone and long athletic players in it. I think it gives us an advantage. I think in the college game it is sort of a colossal mistake that nobody else has tried to replicate that philosophy long term at a program level because it has certainly worked in keeping this program in the elite to near elite for one heck of a long time.
 
With Doug Gottleib we wouldn't have won 10 games, not 10 games!
 
I don't think this has anything to do with the crazy things Gottlieb said or didn't say but found his stats interesting. Yikes - amazingly awful stats for a starting point guard. His game was totally based on ball control and ball security. I would think that opposing defenses would have totally backed off him with his lack of scoring skills. I know it has nothing to do with his analytical skills but it is amazing how far this guy got - playing major college basketball, playing in the usbl, CBA, overseas and then the radio, ESPN and CBS gigs -all with a marketing degree from Ok St. To me it seems that his greatest accomplishment and skill is the phenomenal job he's done marketing and promoting himself throughout the years. I have to give him credit for it. That said I think it was classless to attack JB on the verge of making an historic accomplishment but again he's great at self promotion and it's just another example of it.
 

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I think developing Nba talent should definitely be part of the criteria. Coaches are mentors, like teachers. Teachers' goals are to educate students, with the eventual goal of being successful at the next level, ie obtaining a job based on their field of study. I have some teachers that routinely check up on myself and fellow classmates to see what we are up to. It gives them satisfaction when students they helped educate are successful after school.

the nba isnt the only way basketball players obtain a job based on their field of study. theres professional leagues all over the world, just because they dont make the nba doesnt mean jb somehow failed at developing their basketball skills.
 
I think developing Nba talent should definitely be part of the criteria. Coaches are mentors, like teachers. Teachers' goals are to educate students, with the eventual goal of being successful at the next level, ie obtaining a job based on their field of study. I have some teachers that routinely check up on myself and fellow classmates to see what we are up to. It gives them satisfaction when students they helped educate are successful after school.

You know when I think about it, I think we get lost in the whole "developing NBA talent" aspect. I think the thing that usually bothers me is that after playing exclusively 2-3 zone, when they do go pro, we have an unusual amount of players marked for not playing good defense. Jason Hart would be an exception, but he came to us known as a defensive specialist before he stepped foot on campus.

I do get concerned that after a while if you keep having players not ready to play defense in the NBA as a trend, it will be used against you in recruiting, but so far there is no evidence of that happening, so I guess if its not broke don't fix it.
 
the nba isnt the only way basketball players obtain a job based on their field of study. theres professional leagues all over the world, just because they dont make the nba doesnt mean jb somehow failed at developing their basketball skills.

I can agree with that.

I would also say that many college teams have players that eventually go play abroad. SU players have success abroad, but I dont think it would be any more than other d1 schools. Obviously this is speculation. It comes down to the highest level, and that happens to be the NBA. Players go to school with dreams of going to the nba, not playing in turkey. There are many factors involved though.
 
To me, the only way the "putting players in the NBA" thing is relevant is if it works against a school in recruiting. But since we're recruiting great, who cares?
 
Gottlieb, a history (at least the important parts).

* Starting freshman point guard at Notre Dame

* Gottlieb steals his roommate's credit card at Notre Dame and charges about $900 worth of purchases on it.

* Notre Dame kicks him out of school.

* As a favor to Gottlieb's dad, Eddie Sutton takes him in at Oklahoma State.

* As an ESPN analysis Gottlieb accused some Big East teams, including Syracuse, of playing non-conference schedules so easy they were "fraudulent".

* At a presser, Boeheim fires back that, "the only thing I know about fraudulent is (Gottlieb's) use of credit cards". Boeheim also went on to say, "One guy in particular was in our league for a minute or two but he couldn't play in it. He seems to do the most talking, probably because he wasn't a very good player and he’s not very smart about basketball."

* Later; Gottlieb was the first to call for Oklahoma State's legendary head coach Eddie Sutton to resign after being arrested for DWI. Boeheim also takes exception to this. According to Boeheim, Eddie Sutton gave Doug Gottlieb a second chance after his conviction at Notre Dame yet he was the first to throw his former coach under the bus when he made a mistake.

Ever since; Gottlieb will do whatever he can to bad mouth Syracuse, everyone knows it and no one does anything about it.

* Gottlieb also was the target of the Big Ten commissioner after he made some controversial remarks regarding a Big Ten official.

Gotta love Doug! A class act. Holds a grudge for many years.

Kinda reminds you of Jimmy, "the mouth of the south" Hart, doesn't he?
 
The reason we've won 'so many games' isn't because of the zone. Unless you consider that JB seems to have forgotten how to coach man, so maybe it is because of the zone... The reason we win, when we win, is because we have more talent than the opposition on 95% of game days. I don't think this is even remotely debatable. And, yet, we don't win 95% of games. So, there's that.

No. 5 — There is a need to define "great," as JB noted. How many coaches have been "great?" In any case, i don't put JB there. He doesn't transform, like a Brad Stevens. He doesn't overcome. He doesn't motivate. What he does well is put enough good players in orange uniforms, and then minimize his coaching responsibilities. Fewer plays. He says it's because we can't remember more plays. Everyone else does, though... Zone. Because the other kids can't shoot. Until they do, and Joe Nobody puts in 8 catch-and-shoot 3s against us. But, we win that game, because it was against. 8 Joe Nobodies, and commentators and fans say, yeah, Joe 1 went nuts, but we wanted that, and we contained everyone else. All the other Nobodies couldn't beat our McD players... You give JB a team of non-top 50 players — even guys who play his style, and have his reputed "body type" — and he doesn't win with them.

No. 7 — Everyone seems to have a short memory. It was only a few years ago that we ended a significant streak of being on the NCAA bubble. "Will we get in?"

As someone who normally defends JB there is very little of this I disagree with.

Enough people whom I respect considered Rick Majerus an X's & O's wizard that I wouldn't argue with anyone who said he was a better strategist than JB. He sniffed 1 F4 because he didn't have the players.
We all like to poke fun at Roy Williams for not being able to coach his way out of a paper bag - he has 2 championships & could easily have a few others.

I don't know many if any guys who everyone universally agrees is great at both. I guess K and Izzo is your list and that's about it. But clearly given a choice you'd rather take the guy who recruits. And speaking of short memories, we haven't always been a recruiting powerhouse as mentioned many times here.

Yes, winning in basketball and college athletics, and not surprisingly college basketball is 90%+ about having players. Why anyone chooses to either make this point in the form of criticism towards JB, or why others get defensive about it is beyond me.
 
Your comment about the Dome doesn't explain Boeheim winning 100 games in his first four years, when he had a center from Rochester and a skinny forward from Cinci, a kid from CBA at guard and a kid from the north country with curly hair.

You missed the rest of that point. A) College basketball was a different animal at the time. B). There have been a lot of programs that were successful for period or eras, but didn't sustain that level of excellence. Houston, for example. San Francsisco, for example. NC State. Villanova... My point was that the significant contributing factor to JB's success over the long haul has not been his 'brilliance,' but the Dome Factor.
 
You missed the rest of that point. A) College basketball was a different animal at the time. B). There have been a lot of programs that were successful for period or eras, but didn't sustain that level of excellence. Houston, for example. San Francsisco, for example. NC State. Villanova... My point was that the significant contributing factor to JB's success over the long haul has not been his 'brilliance,' but the Dome Factor.
Do you really think there would be as many season tickets sold if we were not as good as we are/have been?
 
Do you really think there would be as many season tickets sold if we were not as good as we are/have been?

No. And, that's irrelevant to any argument i've been involved in.
My point was: we wouldn't have been "as good as we are/have been," on a sustained basis, without the Dome as a major recruiting factor and an instrument for giving us significance from upstate New York. The point is that JB's successes are inextricably tied to 30k and the USP that the Dome offers. And that factor was greater in the earlier days (80s-90s) than it is now. JB's 'reputation,' built on those earlier successes is now more of a contributing factor.

Another way to look at it — imagine, since 1980, we played in a 13,000 seat 'standard' arena. Like Gampel. You don't think there would have been lower 'low points' in our history? Fewer top 50 recruits? You can't really believe a significant number of our guys didn't come to play in the big house, for 25,000 on a 'normal' night. And that's a positive feedback machine. It perpetuates itself, and in other ways.
 
No. And, that's irrelevant to any argument i've been involved in.
My point was: we wouldn't have been "as good as we are/have been," on a sustained basis, without the Dome as a major recruiting factor and an instrument for giving us significance from upstate New York. The point is that JB's successes are inextricably tied to 30k and the USP that the Dome offers. And that factor was greater in the earlier days (80s-90s) than it is now. JB's 'reputation,' built on those earlier successes is now more of a contributing factor.

Another way to look at it — imagine, since 1980, we played in a 13,000 seat 'standard' arena. Like Gampel. You don't think there would have been lower 'low points' in our history? Fewer top 50 recruits? You can't really believe a significant number of our guys didn't come to play in the big house, for 25,000 on a 'normal' night. And that's a positive feedback machine. It perpetuates itself, and in other ways.
you continue to ignore the fact that was pointed out earlier: JB went 100-18 in his first four seasons, when SU was still playing at Manley Field House. He is tied with Tark as the fourth fastest coach to reach 100 career victories - and nobody since has done it any faster.
 

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