JB Struggles in March

[moqui]

at the end of the day, after looking at all the tournament losses over the years, other than the man in the HC chair, there is no common theme to be found in the failures. They have lost to higher seeded teams, to lower seeded teams; they have lost up tempo games, they have lost low tempo games; they have been blown out, they have lost nail biters. You can't find one or two things and conclude "they always do this, and it ends up costing them."

on the other hand, I can look at the 4 times that they have made it beyond the sweet 16 and I find three common elements:

1. there has always been a versatile, star forward on the roster*
2. there have been at least three consistent scoring threats
3. there has been a dependable low post scorer.

*it is arguable that 1987 didn't really have the versatile forward - DC as a frosh was a star, but was really just a finisher at that point. maybe I am stretching this point, but the other teams featured Billy (1989), Wallace (1996) and Melo (2003).

This years squad has Joseph for point 1, although I think we would all agree he is nowhere near the level of Owens, Wallace or Anthony.

For #2, even if the individual scoring averages aren't eye popping, that is because this team has offensive weapons all over the place. I think there are more than three scoring threats.

#3 is the big question. Will Fab become a consistent double digit scorer over the last 8 games of the regular season (one down) and into the post season? It is on that, I think, that a deep run most depends.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I dont agree with the "whats the difference between losing in the sweet 16 or elite 8? youre not making the final 4 either way" argument. Theres a whole different kind of intensity and excitement in an elite 8 game with the final 4 on the line. Thats what you play for, a spot in the final 4. Theres a lot more riding on an elite 8 game than a sweet 16 game, just to be in an elite 8 game, win or lose, is a memorable experience. And we've been severely lacking in the elite 8 category. Its about damn time we play a game with the final 4 on the line!

I don't agree with the different level of intensity in an elite eight game. There is a lot at stake in the outcome of the game - the final four appearance. But that was what the whole weekend was deciding.

If you had to place the 4-11 record in one of the 6 rounds, would you rather have it in any other round?

 

[Knicks411]

If you had to place the 4-11 record in one of the 6 rounds, would you rather have it in any other round?

I'd be ok with 15 appearances in the national title game, if thats what you're getting at...

 

[FortyFourCT]

Our Sweet Sixteen Performance:


2010 - Syracuse(1) loss to Butler(5)
2009 - Syracuse (3) loss to Oklahoma (2)
2004 - Syracuse (5) loss to Alabama (8)
2003 - Syracuse (3) win vs. Auburn (10)
2000- Syracuse (4) loss to Michigan St. (1)
1998 - Syracuse (5) loss to Duke (1)
1996 - Syracuse (4) win vs. Georgia (8)
1994 - Syracuse (4) loss to Missouri (1)
1990 - Syracuse (2) loss to Minnesota (6)
1989 - Syracuse (2) win vs. Missouri (3)
1987 - Syracuse (2) win vs. Florida (6)
1984 - Syracuse (3) loss to Virginia (7)
1980 - Syracuse (1) loss to Iowa (5)
1979 - Syracuse (4) loss to Penn (9)
1977 - Syracuse loss to Charlotte

In 77 there were only 32 teams and no seeds.

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but JB's Sweet 16 record is actually 4-11 not 4 - 13.

This will be my attempt at being a homer.

1977-1984 - JB was a young coach and young coaches make mistakes.
1987 is 25 years ago, so let's look at the last 25 years.

2010 - Syracuse(1) loss to Butler(5) - Injury hurt us bad - I won't really call it a strike.
2009 - Syracuse (3) loss to Oklahoma (2) - OK was the better team
2004 - Syracuse (5) loss to Alabama (8) - We were a better team, but Bama played a very good game. Strike 1.
2003 - Syracuse (3) win vs. Auburn (10) - We won!
2000- Syracuse (4) loss to Michigan St. (1) - Michigan State was better
1998 - Syracuse (5) loss to Duke (1) - Duke was better
1996 - Syracuse (4) win vs. Georgia (8) - We won!
1994 - Syracuse (4) loss to Missouri (1) - Missouri was better
1990 - Syracuse (2) loss to Minnesota (6) - I don't remember this. I assume we were better. Strike 2!
1989 - Syracuse (2) win vs. Missouri (3) - We won
1987 - Syracuse (2) win vs. Florida (6) - We won

To summarize, we are 4-7 in the last 25 years.
2 bad losses, which happen.
No surprising wins, which we probably should have seen 1 of...?
So with a smallish sample size, we are probably in the margin of error and things should even out in the next couple of years, right?

 

[RandygoCuse]

All said, I think JB's merits have always come with consistency, much more than dominance.

Very well put...Out of curiosity, who was the team we lost to in the elite 8?

 

[AZOrange]

2004 - Syracuse (5) loss to Alabama (8) - We were a better team, but Bama played a very good game. Strike 1.

I was there that night. I can assure you we were not the better team. Bama beat us (like they did Stanford) in every phase.

All of that aside, none of it mattered, the best team in the country was sitting as the 2 seed in our bracket waiting in the next round. That tourney was just a coronation event.

 

[AZOrange]

Very well put...Out of curiosity, who was the team we lost to in the elite 8?

I remember losing to Illinois. Marcus Liberty.

 

[moqui]

Very well put...Out of curiosity, who was the team we lost to in the elite 8?

Illinois in 1989 . . . SU was a 2 seed, Illinois was the 1 seed. Lost 86-89

 

[FortyFourCT]

I was there that night. I can assure you we were not the better team. Bama beat us (like they did Stanford) in every phase.

All of that aside, none of it mattered, the best team in the country was sitting as the 2 seed in our bracket waiting in the next round. That tourney was just a coronation event.

They were the better team that night, no argument. I think we were a better team though, if you know what I mean.

 

[OttoMets]

They were the better team that night, no argument. I think we were a better team though, if you know what I mean.

Which is what I would say about Syracuse relative to Butler in 2010.

It's crazy that this "we had no shot without AO" theme has gotten such play around here. We'd had two weeks to practice and win two games without him (putting on an offensive clinic against Gonzaga). We were favored over Butler. Everyone on this board that Wednesday and Thursday was predicting a 25-point Syracuse win. And we played our worst game of the year and still led by four with under 4:00 to play. Fast-forward two years and the idea is that we lost to them because we had an injured player.

Butler was beatable that night and we gave that game away. Not sure why we get some kind of pass because our starting center got injured two weeks before.

 

[br801]

I'd be ok with 15 appearances in the national title game, if thats what you're getting at...

John Wooden and Sam Gilbert are not walking through that door...

 

[Knicks411]

Definitely agree we easily could have won that game as it was.

I was one who wasn't predicting that we rolled that night; I wasn't the only one, but there were definitely more thinking it would be no problem.

 

[CorduroyG]

Which is what I would say about Syracuse relative to Butler in 2010.

It's crazy that this "we had no shot without AO" theme has gotten such play around here. We'd had two weeks to practice and win two games without him (putting on an offensive clinic against Gonzaga). We were favored over Butler. Everyone on this board that Wednesday and Thursday was predicting a 25-point Syracuse win. And we played our worst game of the year and still led by four with under 4:00 to play. Fast-forward two years and the idea is that we lost to them because we had an injured player.

Butler was beatable that night and we gave that game away. Not sure why we get some kind of pass because our starting center got injured two weeks before.

Thats what hurts most about that game, butler was pretty bad, especially in the 2nd half. They could do nothing offensively until they hit that 3 with the shot clock winding down, and that completely changed the game. For some reason we paniced after they hit that 3. We had a couple possessions with the ball up 4 and couldnt bump it up to a 6 or 7 pt lead, if we do its over.

But remember ricky was absolutely awful that game, we win it with AO.

 

[FortyFourCT]

But remember ricky was absolutely awful that game, we win it with AO.

That is also exactly why I think we win that game, and fairly easily, with AO.

 

[BlueCurtain]

Butler was beatable that night and we gave that game away. Not sure why we get some kind of pass because our starting center got injured two weeks before.

Because it is soothing for most citizens to rationalize underachievement.

 

[OttoMets]

Everything went wrong that night. Especially spotting them a 12-1 lead. Ricky stunk (and was misused; Boeheim flip-flopped his position with Wes's on the high-low), Joseph was mainly a non-factor (was hurt, too, I think), and we were wild with the ball. Didn't shoot well, either. Very much like a lot of recent tournament defeats - awful in the half-court, careless with the ball.

I won't do it, but rewatch the second half. Butler wasn't a very good team that night, but they were just good enough. If played only as poorly as we did in our second loss to Louisville, we'd have moved on to the Elite Eight.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Which is what I would say about Syracuse relative to Butler in 2010.

It's crazy that this "we had no shot without AO" theme has gotten such play around here. We'd had two weeks to practice and win two games without him (putting on an offensive clinic against Gonzaga). We were favored over Butler. Everyone on this board that Wednesday and Thursday was predicting a 25-point Syracuse win. And we played our worst game of the year and still led by four with under 4:00 to play. Fast-forward two years and the idea is that we lost to them because we had an injured player.

Butler was beatable that night and we gave that game away. Not sure why we get some kind of pass because our starting center got injured two weeks before.

The board had the "AO" excuse in some break open incase of fire glass as soon as that game was over. As soon as he got hurt, it was as if we lost Moses Malone.

 

[OttoMets]

The board had the "AO" excuse in some break open incase of fire glass as soon as that game was over. As soon as he got hurt, it was as if we lost Moses Malone.

I will say that I've already started to underrate him. I forced myself to sit through the first 2008 Georgetown-Syracuse game the other day, and he was tremendously gifted. Even as a sophomore, he had terrific touch and post moves. Offensively he was years beyond any center on our current team. It's a crime that he didn't get 25 touches a game.

But that Arinze thing is revisionist history. His absence was but one factor (along with free throws, slow start, turnovers, bad half-court offense, and - yes, I believe this - bad officiating down the stretch) that lost us that game.

We could've played at 75% speed and beaten that team. And our bracket was set up perfectly for our incomplete team to get to the Final Four and have a shot at Michigan State. Instead we played horribly and went home early - and responsibility rests with every coach and the seven guys who played, not with the injured guy.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

AO was a slightly above average Big East big man, who you couldn't put on the court late in tight games because he couldn't make a free throw to save his life. He was never a very good defender, imo. It hurt us to lose him, as he was a guy JB trusted and he gave us some beef down low, but I don't remember him being a rebounding machine that year. I recall the board always yelling at him to jump, grab some rebounds and be tougher down low..

 

[Knicks411]

An SU big man who couldn't rebound on the defensive glass? Weird.

AO was one of the best low post guys we've had. I think his FG% says it all.

 

[pfister1]

Which is what I would say about Syracuse relative to Butler in 2010.

It's crazy that this "we had no shot without AO" theme has gotten such play around here. We'd had two weeks to practice and win two games without him (putting on an offensive clinic against Gonzaga). We were favored over Butler. Everyone on this board that Wednesday and Thursday was predicting a 25-point Syracuse win. And we played our worst game of the year and still led by four with under 4:00 to play. Fast-forward two years and the idea is that we lost to them because we had an injured player.

Butler was beatable that night and we gave that game away. Not sure why we get some kind of pass because our starting center got injured two weeks before.

I agree with this completely. Even without AO we should have beaten Butler, we were that good. Losing AO might have been the difference between us winning the NC or not, but it shouldn't have kept us from winning in the Sweet 16 that year - IMO.

 

[AZOrange]

Fast-forward two years and the idea is that we lost to them because we had an injured player.

Butler was beatable that night and we gave that game away. Not sure why we get some kind of pass because our starting center got injured two weeks before.

I dont think our fate was sealed with respect to Butler just the tourney itself. We were not going to win it without AO. I find no significance in Sweet 16 or Elite 8 victories. Not a moral victory person.

 

[moqui]

Everyone on this board that Wednesday and Thursday was predicting a 25-point Syracuse win.

not me . . . despite the three card monty that the SUAD tried to play with Arinze's status, I was certain that he was done for the duration. I had seen them play three times that year and knew how good they were - tough defensively and efficient on offense. I actually picked Butler to win in my bracket (I was not so prescient to pick them to the Final Four, though).

If you had watched Butler play that year, then you knew that Arinze would have made a tremendous difference. Butler played strong man to man defense, but they did not have anyone on their roster who would have been able to match up with Arinze. While they were able to push Ricky one or two feet off his preferred mark (and that makes a huge difference), I don't think they could have moved Arinze. Remember, this was the Junior Ricky, not the Senior Ricky. He was pudgy and didn't give nearly as much effort as he did the next year. JB tried to go to Ricky on the blocks early and often, and kept coming up empty. Arinze would have gotten buckets or fouled. Even if he hadn't converted the latter into points, he would have gotten the BU bigs in foul trouble. BU would have had to double him, which would have taken pressure off of the perimeter and opened up the SU game.

Blue Curtain likes to deride the notion that Arinze made that much of a difference, but he is more wrong on that single point than any other bête noire he likes to pound on. Anyone who remembers how SU played offense during that season knows better. Anyone who also paid attention to how Butler had played defense knows even better.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

not me . . . despite the three card monty that the SUAD tried to play with Arinze's status, I was certain that he was done for the duration. I had seen them play three times that year and knew how good they were - tough defensively and efficient on offense. I actually picked Butler to win in my bracket (I was not so prescient to pick them to the Final Four, though).

If you had watched Butler play that year, then you knew that Arinze would have made a tremendous difference. Butler played strong man to man defense, but they did not have anyone on their roster who would have been able to match up with Arinze. While they were able to push Ricky one or two feet off his preferred mark (and that makes a huge difference), I don't think they could have moved Arinze. Remember, this was the Junior Ricky, not the Senior Ricky. He was pudgy and didn't give nearly as much effort as he did the next year. JB tried to go to Ricky on the blocks early and often, and kept coming up empty. Arinze would have gotten buckets or fouled. Even if he hadn't converted the latter into points, he would have gotten the BU bigs in foul trouble. BU would have had to double him, which would have taken pressure off of the perimeter and opened up the SU game.

Blue Curtain likes to deride the notion that Arinze made that much of a difference, but he is more wrong on that single point than any other bête noire he likes to pound on. Anyone who remembers how SU played offense during that season knows better. Anyone who also paid attention to how Butler had played defense knows even better.

Watching the last 4 minutes again... you see Kris Joseph and Wes Johnson were clearly bothered by Butlers physical defense. Neither of them was going out to get the ball in big spots down the stretch. If they had sacked up a bit, it might have been a different ending. AO or no AO...our softness killed us.

 

[AZOrange]

Blue Curtain likes to deride the notion that Arinze made that much of a difference, but he is more wrong on that single point than any other bête noire he likes to pound on. Anyone who remembers how SU played offense during that season knows better. Anyone who also paid attention to how Butler had played defense knows even better.

Not sure that is the worst point BC has tried to make on here...but its close. I am not sure how it can be said with a straight face.