JB's Presser after BC | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

JB's Presser after BC

Looking back I think JB should have ran the offense through Hughes a lot more last year than he did.
I think that's because you're thinking Hughes then could do what Hughes does now.

Problem is, Hughes last year was atrocious handling the ball and with his footwork on the perimeter. Like, comicly terrible at times. The improvement he has made in that part of his offensive game is really subtle but has been extremely impactful in the leap his game made.
 
I think that's because you're thinking Hughes then could do what Hughes does now.

Problem is, Hughes last year was atrocious handling the ball and with his footwork on the perimeter. Like, comicly terrible at times. The improvement he has made in that part of his offensive game is really subtle but has been extremely impactful in the leap his game made.
Definitely remember some of the gripes about putting eli at the 2 "no handle" last year
 
It's likely because teams score really, really, really quickly against us! So we get more possessions and shoot more threes!
SU's average defensive possession length is longer this year (18.2 seconds long overall, 18.0 seconds long in conference games only) than it was last year (17.9 overall, 17.7 in conference games). So it's not accurate to say that we're scoring more points or that we're more efficient on offense because teams score really quickly against us this year.
 
Which is why I was curious as to Buddy vs Tyus and their efficiency as I would imagine Buddy must destroy Tyus in all efficiency stats.
When you reference "efficiency stats" for specific players, what statistic(s) are you asking about, exactly?
 
SU's average defensive possession length is longer this year (18.2 seconds long overall, 18.0 seconds long in conference games only) than it was last year (17.9 overall, 17.7 in conference games). So it's not accurate to say that we're scoring more points or that we're more efficient on offense because teams score really quickly against us this year.

That's helpful! I would have guessed we had shorter possessions on both sides of the floor
 
When you reference "efficiency stats" for specific players, what statistic(s) are you asking about, exactly?

I really have no idea - offensive rating, defensive ratings, anything that will help me wrap my head around how replacing our existing shooting guard, Buddy Boeheim, with Tyus Battle, would make us worse off this year.

I'm trying to see it!
 
No. I just read my posts in the thread. I never once mentioned him being better than Battle in the thread. That is dumb. You’re mixing me up with another poster, but yes if it’s spot up shots I want him shooting over Battle and I want Hughes to have the ball instead of Battle. Just give it a rest. You moan about him in every thread it’s Impossible to mention anything about the team overall with you bringing him up.

I just wanted to find a way to reference DC's whoop de damn do line into a post! :)

You whine a lot about me discussing Buddy while responding, just stop responding if it's not worthwhile. It's a fairly simple endeavor for most people. I've responded in 6 threads on the first page, in 2 I've mentioned Buddy...calm down a bit.

It's a forum and it's my main gripe with the team - of course I'm gonna talk about it a lot. If I get a chance to suddenly entertain the notion of replacing one or both, with Tyus Battle, of course I'm gonna chat it up.

My overall point, is just that I can't fathom a scenario where we get worse with Tyus Battle on this team - on defense certainly, or on offense. Although I can see how we could get worse on offense against really bad, slow, defensive teams.
That's been my issue since before the season though - we're sorta built to destroy mid-majors.
 
I really have no idea - offensive rating, defensive ratings, anything that will help me wrap my head around how replacing our existing shooting guard, Buddy Boeheim, with Tyus Battle, would make us worse off this year.

I'm trying to see it!
I guess to play this game of "what if" a lot of it would boil down to: what role would Tyus play on offense and what role would Elijah play? If Tyus took all of Buddy's minutes AND reprised his role from last season as the less efficient, high-usage focal point of the offense (which would mean less contribution from Elijah and no contribution from Buddy) - I think it's fair to speculate that the offense would not be as good as this year's edition. But the defense would almost certainly be better with Tyus in place of Buddy.

The primary reason that our offense is a lot better this year is because our highest-usage player this year (Elijah) is having a better year than our highest-usage player last season (Tyus). Elijah is shooting better than Tyus did from 3-pt range, from 2-pt range and from the FT line - and Elijah has a higher assist rate than Tyus did. That's not to say that Tyus was bad last year... but I think Elijah's season is definitely under-appreciated (except for maybe in JB's post-game press conference rants).

I can tell from your posts that you're not a big advanced stats guy when it comes to basketball. And that's fine, they're not for everyone. There are still people who look at baseball stats and think that a .300 batting average or 100 RBI are automatically markers of a good season. (They're not.) But a team's overall adjusted efficiency rating on offense and on defense is absolutely something that smart basketball people should care about. (Not just those of us who pony up $19.99 per year to access kenpom).
 
I guess to play this game of "what if" a lot of it would boil down to: what role would Tyus play on offense and what role would Elijah play? If Tyus took all of Buddy's minutes AND reprised his role from last season as the less efficient, high-usage focal point of the offense (which would mean less contribution from Elijah and no contribution from Buddy) - I think it's fair to speculate that the offense would not be as good as this year's edition. But the defense would almost certainly be better with Tyus in place of Buddy.

The primary reason that our offense is a lot better this year is because our highest-usage player this year (Elijah) is having a better year than our highest-usage player last season (Tyus). Elijah is shooting better than Tyus did from 3-pt range, from 2-pt range and from the FT line - and Elijah has a higher assist rate than Tyus did. That's not to say that Tyus was bad last year... but I think Elijah's season is definitely under-appreciated (except for maybe in JB's post-game press conference rants).

I can tell from your posts that you're not a big advanced stats guy when it comes to basketball. And that's fine, they're not for everyone. There are still people who look at baseball stats and think that a .300 batting average or 100 RBI are automatically markers of a good season. (They're not.) But a team's overall adjusted efficiency rating on offense and on defense is absolutely something that smart basketball people should care about. (Not just those of us who pony up $19.99 per year to access kenpom).

Yeah, the "what if" games are boring, but since we're not doing much this year - it's all I got at the moment! :)

Last year we seemed to function best when Eli was hitting on all cylinders, but the trend if I recall, was that he often had dominant first halves, and GARBAGE second halves - which many attributed to poor conditioning on Eli's part. I don't think Tyus would be so ball dominant that it would negate Eli or take away all that many opportunities over the course of an entire season though.

Eli this year is definitely better than Tyus last year, but maybe with an improved Eli, JGIII at point (some consistency - and BB to give some relief) we see Battle revert to his Frosh 3PT numbers. He's shooting 38% in the G-League this year fwiw. Who knows, I just think the fact that he's so multi-dimensional, would be insanely helpful against athletic teams, and in general. Accordingly, with the improved Eli/JGIII, I think the offense is still much better than last year, and better off this year.

That's more or less where I discard all the efficiency ratings - regardless of what they say we can do on offense, as often that's what is thrown out in defense of the guards, those offensive "skills," quite notably with BB, tend to dissipate considerably when the other team has athletes - which, if we're playing them 40MPG, seems silly to just keep going to the same well that we know is close to empty.

I get that people think Goodine is awful (I know this is NOT the debate at hand), but my point this season is more that I don't think he's THAT awful, and that he can play defense. Plus, a more well rested Buddy/JGIII could likely give more effort on defense......and they're already bad at max effort.

Anyway, fun argument! Thanks!
 
That's more or less where I discard all the efficiency ratings - regardless of what they say we can do on offense, as often that's what is thrown out in defense of the guards, those offensive "skills," quite notably with BB, tend to dissipate considerably when the other team has athletes - which, if we're playing them 40MPG, seems silly to just keep going to the same well that we know is close to empty.
I hear what you're saying, but one part of your argument that I have a hard time wrapping my head around is this: If it's true that a guy like Buddy simply can't get it done on the offensive end of the floor against "athletes" (which is pretty a vague/subjective standard, but I'll sort of skip past it for the moment) - but a guy like Tyus can... then why wouldn't a guy like Tyus be even better against the "non-athletes" than Buddy?

Said another way - If Tyus (or Goodine, or whoever people want to see on the court over Buddy) has the superior skill set to "dribble, do something creative with the ball" against the best athletes in college basketball - wouldn't those same skills translate into domination against the "non-athletes"? Because I don't think that the stats show that to be the case.

If you look at the stats, virtually every player performs worse against the top teams - there really aren't any magical players that excel against the best teams and don't perform as well against the lower-ranked teams. (And kenpom does break his player stats down for conference-only play and against what he terms "Tier A" opponents... another good reason to embrace the advanced stats revolution!)
 
I hear what you're saying, but one part of your argument that I have a hard time wrapping my head around is this: If it's true that a guy like Buddy simply can't get it done on the offensive end of the floor against "athletes" (which is pretty a vague/subjective standard, but I'll sort of skip past it for the moment) - but a guy like Tyus can... then why wouldn't a guy like Tyus be even better against the "non-athletes" than Buddy?

Said another way - If Tyus (or Goodine, or whoever people want to see on the court over Buddy) has the superior skill set to "dribble, do something creative with the ball" against the best athletes in college basketball - wouldn't those same skills translate into domination against the "non-athletes"? Because I don't think that the stats show that to be the case.

If you look at the stats, virtually every player performs worse against the top teams - there really aren't any magical players that excel against the best teams and don't perform as well against the lower-ranked teams. (And kenpom does break his player stats down for conference-only play and against what he terms "Tier A" opponents... another good reason to embrace the advanced stats revolution!)

I'm a hater, but I agree here. I hated Tyus style of play, but people enjoyed it cause "CLUTCH" and "Kobe". I mean he had some brutal games last year. 5-19 against Virginia, 3-9 against NC State, 3-11 against Clemson, 3-12 against Georgia Tech, 4-17 against Duke at home, and 3-10 against Virginia Tech so yeah it would appear he mostly played worse against better athletes as well.
 
I hear what you're saying, but one part of your argument that I have a hard time wrapping my head around is this: If it's true that a guy like Buddy simply can't get it done on the offensive end of the floor against "athletes" (which is pretty a vague/subjective standard, but I'll sort of skip past it for the moment) - but a guy like Tyus can... then why wouldn't a guy like Tyus be even better against the "non-athletes" than Buddy?

Said another way - If Tyus (or Goodine, or whoever people want to see on the court over Buddy) has the superior skill set to "dribble, do something creative with the ball" against the best athletes in college basketball - wouldn't those same skills translate into domination against the "non-athletes"? Because I don't think that the stats show that to be the case.

If you look at the stats, virtually every player performs worse against the top teams - there really aren't any magical players that excel against the best teams and don't perform as well against the lower-ranked teams. (And kenpom does break his player stats down for conference-only play and against what he terms "Tier A" opponents... another good reason to embrace the advanced stats revolution!)

Good questions. :)

Whoah, I wouldn't play Goodine over Buddy at this juncture, I just wish he was used him more to supplement some of the deficiencies we've shown repeatedly. That's some of JGIII's minutes as well. I think integrating him more early would be paying more dividends now. Why we play him with HoWa of late is beyond me...…….I don't need to see that.

A lot of that is defense, some about rest for the starting guards, and some of it is just having the offense rely on flow a bit, as at times I do think we hit ruts where guys are standing around. It's more about being multi-dimensional, and defense - I do not AT ALL think he should be eating up most of Buddy's minutes.

As to the rest, I think we would be better on offense with Tyus generally - against any sort of opponent. With that being said, Buddy is an incredibly smart player, he recognizes mismatches well, isn't prone to silly mistakes because he isn't being over-aggressive or out of control (almost ever), and can shoot the lights out. I think they'd compliment each other well - I just see a pretty glaring whole in Buddy's game that we seem happy to ignore. We can't always just sit around waiting for Chris Herren's little brother, or someone to end up on him so he can drive once in a bit.

If you're a shooting guard that can't find your own shot w/out a favorable defensive match-up (REALLY favorable, like another super slow kid) - I will always see that as problematic with that usage rate, the secondary skills (getting to loose balls, etc...) and the defensive awfulness - unless everyone else is insanely dynamic with the ball. And that ain't us.

The KP stuff I just like to make fun of - that's all in good fun. :)
 
If you're a shooting guard that can't find your own shot w/out a favorable defensive match-up (REALLY favorable, like another super slow kid) - I will always see that as problematic
I'm assuming this comment was made with Buddy in mind... but it's really not a fair or accurate description of his skills and/or limitations. Herren's son played only 2 minutes the other night - that's not why Buddy had a good game. And although North Carolina is having a down year, they didn't have any "super slow" kids guarding Buddy when he put up 22 last weekend.
Otherwise, I generally agree with your post - if Tyus was on this team, we'd be better than 17-13.
 
I'm assuming this comment was made with Buddy in mind... but it's really not a fair or accurate description of his skills and/or limitations. Herren's son played only 2 minutes the other night - that's not why Buddy had a good game. And although North Carolina is having a down year, they didn't have any "super slow" kids guarding Buddy when he put up 22 last weekend.
Otherwise, I generally agree with your post - if Tyus was on this team, we'd be better than 17-13.

Haha, I was just making the reference because as soon as Herren's kid ended up on him he went to the rim. He's great at picking that stuff up - which, again, is a testament to him knowing how to play the game VERY WELL.

I really having nothing but great things to say about Buddy against UNC...but I also think all of that started after he sat for a bit, sold out on defense when he came back in, and then slowly trickled back to Earth. I do think the speed of the game is a tad much for him on the whole. He was superb in the second part of the first half though. I don't doubt he can do that against athletic teams, depending upon the game, but his inability to do it, with regularity, when needed, as a shooting guard, I think at times hinders the team just as much as the spacing helps at times...
 
I'm assuming this comment was made with Buddy in mind... but it's really not a fair or accurate description of his skills and/or limitations. Herren's son played only 2 minutes the other night - that's not why Buddy had a good game. And although North Carolina is having a down year, they didn't have any "super slow" kids guarding Buddy when he put up 22 last weekend.
Otherwise, I generally agree with your post - if Tyus was on this team, we'd be better than 17-13.

I think the player we are missing that would have moved the needle far more than Tyus was Isaiah Stewart.
 
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The offense wasn't good with Battle last year and we still had Buddy and Hughes on the team. He would take shots away from both of them as he was a ball stopper. I agree with the defense, but he was an inefficient offensive player the last 2 years he was here. I think we still are somewhere around the bubble.
The defense would be so much better. Our guards are really bad defenders. That can’t be overstated.
 
LOL.

You wouldn't take Tyus over Buddy? Really?

And Tyus played PG for LONG stretches during the huge Duke game.

Sure, Elijah is better but is it about having the one better player or is about having many better players so that the team can win games?

With Tyus Battle on the team, our defense is MARKEDLY better. No question in my mind and that shouldn't be debatable. Buddy doesn't hold a candle to Tyus in that category, or any category other than three-point shooting.

The defense would be much better. At the very least, we probably don’t lose all those non conference games, which ruined our chances for the tourney. And we probably beat Clemson and FSU.
 
The defense would be much better. At the very least, we probably don’t lose all those non conference games, which ruined our chances for the tourney. And we probably beat Clemson and FSU.

I’m not sure how Tyus stops Garza, Watkins, Yurtseven etc...We we’re just as bad in the OOC in the past with Tyus.
 
We need better players. Battle is a very good player. If he stays, we are a better team this year and we make the NCAA Tournament in a weak ACC. Why would I care about next year when we have looked at next year for the last five years? When will it be this year?
If your only goal is NCAA, and no FF, then fine. Our "this year" will be when we are all wearing Dior.
It could be next year, if Eli decides to stay and we get one big, or a big and an Eli replacement.
 

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