JMU screw job

[WoadBlue]

JMU to NCAA: Players earned bowl game chance

At 9-0 in their second year of a two-year transition period from FCS to FBS, James Madison again appealed to the NCAA for relief that would allow the Dukes to play in the postseason.

www.espn.com

They also just beat Izzo in hoops.

Both their teams would smoke us. Lesson is it can be done despite all the NIL distractions but u have to have leadership

ABSOLUTELY.

Sometimes it is good to yell.

 

[WoadBlue]

As a general rule, I think people are far too quick to demand change which leads to disastrous consequences because we don't think through all of the impacts of the change, so I like to use the "Chesterton's fence" principle (that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood) to determine if a change is appropriate. In simple terms, don't remove a fence until you know why it was there in the first place.

The NCAA claims this is intended to keep teams from jumping up too quickly. However, they already just increased the move up fee from $5000 to $5MM - the fee would meet the need the NCAA had identified for the rule. Additionally, not allowing a team to go to a bowl adds a potentially additional financial burden beyond the now-$5MM move up fee.

Finally, it looks to be fixing a problem which doesn't exist anyway. Of the last 10 teams to make the leap, only Charlotte has a below-average winning percentage. They may have never been ready to make the jump in the first place, but the bowl ban didn't prevent it from happening. Of the other nine, three won conference titles within three years of promotion, and six (maybe seven with JMU) were denied or nearly denied a bowl opportunity in the first two years. In other words, its questionable it achieves what it is intended to do - and has negative consequences of punishing teams for being "too good" that should be avoided.

When I started to look into this, I wasn't sure if there was a strong reason for the bowl ban rule which we were just missing in the current discussion. I'm concluding there isn't - its a stupid and pointless rule which should be eliminated. Tear down the fence!

PS - While this is largely irrelevant, its still far more interesting than any possible discussion around Syracuse football right now.

Charlotte should not have 1A/FBS football. The most it should have is 1AA/FCS football. And while it could assemble good talent for that, it never would have a fan base for that. It's an NFL town in an ACC state, at a school that was founded after WW2 just to be a Charlotte center for GI BILL recipients living in that area. Slowly it grew from there. Very slowly for decades.

 

[WoadBlue]

If he is going bring 50 kids from Viriginia with him then I would care too

Syracuse lacrosse was great too when the best HS lacrosse was right in our backyard or close to it

VA HS football is nowhere near the best even in ACC country.

 

[Bayside44]

VA HS football is nowhere near the best even in ACC country.

It produces a lot of upper mid-major talent, for places like JMU and ODU.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

Am I missing something? Didn't they specifically know the rule before they made the move?

Serious Q. Did the rules change after they jumped? If so, yeah screw job. If they knew the deal and made the move anyway, this feels much ado about nothing.

Yes. They knew the rules. The NCAA also has an appeals process that JMU went through. This past April, that appeal was denied.

People are mostly up in arms because of the results on the field. The AD had the opportunity to move to FBS in 2012-2013 and turned it down because they felt they weren't ready to make the move yet. They spent the next 8 years ramping the program up to be a national power in FCS and increased the amount of money spent on facilities upgrades, coaching salaries, etc.

The people at JMU believe the program was more ready for FBS than any other team making that transition before them. They played a full FBS schedule last year to help the Sun Belt Conference out with scheduling. That typically doesn't happen with a transitioning team.

They've played another full FBS schedule this year. The admins at the university believe the NCAA was dead wrong on the decision, based in part on the results on the field. The team is 17-4 since moving to FBS.

The NCAA's response to the appeal and the site visit that NCAA officials did in the spring was essentially, "We've never granted this appeal before, so we won't start doing it now." A lot of the uppity-ups at JMU thought that response was asinine. Why even have an appeals process if you aren't willing to recognize a team that has met all the conditions laid out in the NCAA guidelines?

That's where a lot of this ire is coming from. But yes, they knew before the season they would not be bowling. They thought it was BS then, and they think it's BS now. The only difference now is the team is undefeated and in the top 25, so there's more national media exposure.

It helps that the state's attorney general is a JMU grad and has made a big fuss about it, as has other JMU alums in the state legislature. They are trying to drum up support for an adjustment to the rule.

It's not going to work and shouldn't (the decision has been made), but they make the good point that the only people this affects directly are the student-athletes who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into being prepared week in and week out to be the best they can be.

 

[SUDadx2]

Yes. They knew the rules. The NCAA also has an appeals process that JMU went through. This past April, that appeal was denied.

People are mostly up in arms because of the results on the field. The AD had the opportunity to move to FBS in 2012-2013 and turned it down because they felt they weren't ready to make the move yet. They spent the next 8 years ramping the program up to be a national power in FCS and increased the amount of money spent on facilities upgrades, coaching salaries, etc.

The people at JMU believe the program was more ready for FBS than any other team making that transition before them. They played a full FBS schedule last year to help the Sun Belt Conference out with scheduling. That typically doesn't happen with a transitioning team.

They've played another full FBS schedule this year. The admins at the university believe the NCAA was dead wrong on the decision, based in part on the results on the field. The team is 17-4 since moving to FBS.

The NCAA's response to the appeal and the site visit that NCAA officials did in the spring was essentially, "We've never granted this appeal before, so we won't start doing it now." A lot of the uppity-ups at JMU thought that response was asinine. Why even have an appeals process if you aren't willing to recognize a team that has met all the conditions laid out in the NCAA guidelines?

That's where a lot of this ire is coming from. But yes, they knew before the season they would not be bowling. They thought it was BS then, and they think it's BS now. The only difference now is the team is undefeated and in the top 25, so there's more national media exposure.

It helps that the state's attorney general is a JMU grad and has made a big fuss about it, as has other JMU alums in the state legislature. They are trying to drum up support for an adjustment to the rule.

It's not going to work and shouldn't (the decision has been made), but they make the good point that the only people this affects directly are the student-athletes who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into being prepared week in and week out to be the best they can be.

So, because they are undefeated and the AG is an alum, they hope to get some special treatment?

Is that accurate?

If they are allowed to go to a bowl game, it would affect more than "the (JMU) student-athletes who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into being prepared week in and week out to be the best they can be." It would also affect all other student-athletes at whatever school they would be displacing in the bowl game system. I assume whichever team they would displace has also "put their blood, sweat, and tears into being prepared week in and week out to be the best they can be."

JMU is a good team, but they are not a victim. In the end, none of the possible outcomes would shock me.

 

[Bayside44]

So, because they are undefeated and the AG is an alum, they hope to get some special treatment?

Is that accurate?

If they are allowed to go to a bowl game, it would affect more than "the (JMU) student-athletes who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into being prepared week in and week out to be the best they can be." It would also affect all other student-athletes at whatever school they would be displacing in the bowl game system. I assume whichever team they would displace has also "put their blood, sweat, and tears into being prepared week in and week out to be the best they can be."

JMU is a good team, but they are not a victim. In the end, none of the possible outcomes would shock me.

Tez Walker wasn't going to play until he did, so who knows.

 

[orangecuse]

Charlotte should not have 1A/FBS football. The most it should have is 1AA/FCS football. And while it could assemble good talent for that, it never would have a fan base for that. It's an NFL town in an ACC state, at a school that was founded after WW2 just to be a Charlotte center for GI BILL recipients living in that area. Slowly it grew from there. Very slowly for decades.

I've been living in the Charlotte area (various suburbs, last 15 years in Weddington) for just short of 30 years now. Charlotte only got its NFL team in '95, therefore, it doesn't have a long history of being an "NFL town." And, since it has continued to grow by leaps and bounds for the past 3 decades, there are numerous in state alums from UNC & NCST as well as nearby south carolina flagships, USC & Clemson that live, work and play all around these parts. Additionally, VPI also has quite a few alumni here in Charlotte as well as App St.

UNCC's issues relative to 1A/FBS hasn't, IMO, anything to due with being in an NFL town, it has more to do with the two long standing in state flagship schools, as well as the other aforementioned nearby schools that have a long history of 1A (sans App St.) and Charlotte having to deal with all of that competition, etc in addition to being an upstart 1A.

I would argue, based upon my 30 years of living here, that Charlotte has a huge big time college football/sports following and is as much as a big time college football/sports town as it is an NFL city.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

You do realize the guy has a career record of 126-34? Yeah let’s keep finding reasons not to want that guy

Personally, I don't think Cignetti would come here and it has nothing to with money. Maybe WVU as that looks like it will open up. I think established coaches look at syracuse job as a no win situation. Going to have to dig deeper than Cignetti. Either a retread HC or a real up and comer who is willing to take the risk to maybe skip a place in two in line for a P5 HC job. Kyle Flood type, maybe Tony White. OC from Kansas under Leipold somebody like that

I just think he has some tactical recruiting advantages down there that he won't have here and that is fine, Like I said, maybe he can convince 50 VA kids to come North.

But don't get me wrong, I would love him to coach Syracuse I just don't see him as a viable option. I think WVU should hire him though, sooner rather than later

 

[djorange1989]

Personally, I don't think Cignetti would come here. Maybe WVU as that looks like it will open up.

I just think he has some tactical recruiting advantages down there that he won't have here and that is fine, Like I said, maybe he can convince 50 VA kids to come North.

But don't get me wrong, I would love him to coach Syracuse I just don't see him as a viable option. I think WVU should hire him though, sooner rather than later

Yeah I agree that he may wait for WVU or Pitt to open, no doubt.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Yeah I agree that he may wait for WVU or Pitt to open, no doubt.

I mean you have to at least reach out to see if he's interested, him and a bunch of others. Just not sure there will be a ton of interest from the "hot" coaches but I guess you never know.

 

[djorange1989]

I mean you have to at least reach out to see if he's interested, him and a bunch of others. Just not sure there will be a ton of interest from the "hot" coaches but I guess you never know.

Yeah I am skeptical but I think he should be the first guy JW reaches out, maybe he already has for all I know

 

[kirbivore]

Am I missing something? Didn't they specifically know the rule before they made the move?

Serious Q. Did the rules change after they jumped? If so, yeah screw job. If they knew the deal and made the move anyway, this feels much ado about nothing.

 

[SWC75]

As a general rule, I think people are far too quick to demand change which leads to disastrous consequences because we don't think through all of the impacts of the change, so I like to use the "Chesterton's fence" principle (that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood) to determine if a change is appropriate. In simple terms, don't remove a fence until you know why it was there in the first place.

The NCAA claims this is intended to keep teams from jumping up too quickly. However, they already just increased the move up fee from $5000 to $5MM - the fee would meet the need the NCAA had identified for the rule. Additionally, not allowing a team to go to a bowl adds a potentially additional financial burden beyond the now-$5MM move up fee.

Finally, it looks to be fixing a problem which doesn't exist anyway. Of the last 10 teams to make the leap, only Charlotte has a below-average winning percentage. They may have never been ready to make the jump in the first place, but the bowl ban didn't prevent it from happening. Of the other nine, three won conference titles within three years of promotion, and six (maybe seven with JMU) were denied or nearly denied a bowl opportunity in the first two years. In other words, its questionable it achieves what it is intended to do - and has negative consequences of punishing teams for being "too good" that should be avoided.

When I started to look into this, I wasn't sure if there was a strong reason for the bowl ban rule which we were just missing in the current discussion. I'm concluding there isn't - its a stupid and pointless rule which should be eliminated. Tear down the fence!

PS - While this is largely irrelevant, its still far more interesting than any possible discussion around Syracuse football right now.

And that fee is just another way for the NCAA to make money. The division you are in should be based on competitive balance, not how much money you pay.

 

[SWC75]

JMU to NCAA: Players earned bowl game chance

At 9-0 in their second year of a two-year transition period from FCS to FBS, James Madison again appealed to the NCAA for relief that would allow the Dukes to play in the postseason.

www.espn.com

They also just beat Izzo in hoops.

Both their teams would smoke us. Lesson is it can be done despite all the NIL distractions but u have to have leadership

There's always the Pesci Bowl...

 

[Cheriehoop]

And that fee is just another way for the NCAA to make money. The division you are in should be based on competitive balance, not how much money you pay.

To be fair, the reason colleges contemplate jumping leagues is because of money.

 

[atlanticuse]

JMU to NCAA: Players earned bowl game chance

At 9-0 in their second year of a two-year transition period from FCS to FBS, James Madison again appealed to the NCAA for relief that would allow the Dukes to play in the postseason.

www.espn.com

They also just beat Izzo in hoops.

Both their teams would smoke us. Lesson is it can be done despite all the NIL distractions but u have to have leadership

Disagree.
This has been a 25+ year journey.

 

[shandeezy7]

This type of thing isn't uncommon.

A couple of years ago, a team that made the jump upward [Bellarmine] won their basketball conference tournament, but didn't qualify for the NCAA due to the same rule.

It's dumb, but it's the rule. Either get the NCAA to change the rule, or don't complain about it.

It happened just last year with Merrimack in the NEC. Fairleigh Dickinson took their place and made a run to the Sweet 16.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

If they run the table I hope they claim a national championship like UCF did.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[blue&orange]

If Lemoyne can’t make March Madness this spring then I don’t want to see JMU in a bowl game. Apply the rule to everyone equally even if it’s a poor rule. Being undefeated shouldn’t matter.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

If Lemoyne can’t make March Madness this spring then I don’t want to see JMU in a bowl game. Apply the rule to everyone equally even if it’s a poor rule. Being undefeated shouldn’t matter.

Meh rough take what if LeMoyne takes their lumps year 1 but wins their conference year 2 and gets shut out.

These rules blow. I want JMU to claim a Natty if they don't lose a game and are banned from bowls.

 

[blue&orange]

Meh rough take what if LeMoyne takes their lumps year 1 but wins their conference year 2 and gets shut out.

These rules blow. I want JMU to claim a Natty if they don't lose a game and are banned from bowls.

Then it won’t be a surprise to them in year 2 when they sit out. How about every other team that got hosed by this rule in football and basketball? Point being JMU isn’t special, apply the rule to all or end it.

 

[SWC75]

If Lemoyne can’t make March Madness this spring then I don’t want to see JMU in a bowl game. Apply the rule to everyone equally even if it’s a poor rule. Being undefeated shouldn’t matter.

I agree that if it's a rule it should apply to everyone. JMU's situation might hasen the day when the get rid of what virtually everyone agrees is a bad rule.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

I also really hope that WSU and OSU can find a way to screw the departing P12 schools out of a years TV money.